What are your 'class fantasies' for the 64 classes

Part of the discussion over augments and classes hinges on peoples expectations for how a class will work. Most players have a conception of what a Paladin or a Necromancer are mechanically and what they bring to a party composition. And while the primary/secondary archetype model is a overall accurate description of what they bring it lacks the detail or focus that would be a description of a skill kit and how the player would tactically behave in battle.

I'm brainstorming simple tactical descriptions of each class and the core elements of its kit which distinquish it from either the base or secondary archetype. I'm seeking to think of a means by which the characteristics of the base class can be most easily bent to serve the role of the secondary. For example how would a Bard act as a Tank, could the Bard just littlerally be able to take a lot of damage in the traditional sense, yes but that's excedinlgy dull. On the otherhand a Bard that memzerizes oponents and causes them to stop attacking and thus neutralizing their aggression is achiving the goal of a Tank in a Bardic way, AND fuffilling a coherent class fantasy impled by the name 'Siren'. Package that into a short description and you get

Bard/Tank - Sirens are able to produce such aluring performances that enemies at short range are compelled to follow the Siren in a trance state for a limited distance. So long as the tranced arn't attacked they will stop attacking and can be lead away. In this way they controls and nulifies enemy aggression while providing a way to pull apart enemy groups.

Other examples

Mage/Fighter - Battle Mages specialize in touch delivered magical attacks and short range fan blast effects. Combined with the robustness to survive in the front lines of battle the Battle Mage is excellent at confronting clustered frontline combatants who typically lack good elemental resistance.

Rogue/Cleric - Cultists focus on long casting time high impact dark rituals cast while in stealth. Their rituals can empower themselves and allies with short lived temporary Health and lifesteal abilities to unleash in deadly surprise attacks if they can complete their castings before being detected.

Summoner/Mage - Spellmancers summon elemental themed minions which deal elemental damage and can use their minions as the location for creating AoE spell effects by dispelling the minion in a burst of magical energy. Minions felled in battle by the enemy likewise burst making them all effectivly walking magical bombs thrown at the enemy ranks.

What similar class fantasies can other folks imagine?

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Comments

Dygz

I mean...
We've been waiting 5+ years for the last two Know Your Nodes articles...
And 7+ years for Nodes 3.
We tend to get info later rather than sooner...

nanfoodle

Dygz wrote: »

I mean...
We've been waiting 5+ years for the last two Know Your Nodes articles...
And 7+ years for Nodes 3.
We tend to get info later rather than sooner...

Sure but we knew many details. About 40 words about augments on the wiki. There is many ideas on what they do and how they work. Many are convinced they are a class beyond the core archtype. When all they do is augment the skill of the main class. IMO if clearer picture (more details) soon. Many will be upset and feel cheated.

Lodrig

More concepts, I'm really looking for feedback on them not debate spill over from the other threads. Were talking about class fantasy and how to hybridize archetypes here.

Cleric/Summoner Shaman
Protectors of ancestral holyground, the Shaman summons a number of immovable holy totems that radiate their blessings. These Totems powerfully heal nearby allies while debuffing enemies, but are vulnorable to attack and destruction. The Shaman dose not directly heal or buff allies but can use targeted restoration on their totems to keep them standing or cast temporary consecrations to add powerfull buffs to the totems area of effect.

Fighter/Summoner Bladecaller
Are able to animate their melee or ranged weapon, which ever is swapped the other set fights besides them making the attacks the Bladecaller isn't. Thus the Bladecaller is effectivly utilizing both melee and ranged weapon sets at all times and can even direct the animated weapon to attack specific targets, though the weapons are leashd to remain nearby at all tmes.

Fighter/Tank Dreadnought
At the center of the fray the Dreadnought is able to attack all adjacent enemies with wide circular swipes and to keep them engaging him alone with powerfull pulls leashes and trips on anyone trying to disengage. The greater their momentum and the more crowded they are the harder they are to hit allowing them dive into and thrive in situations which would doom any other warrior.

Azherae

Lodrig wrote: »

More concepts, I'm really looking for feedback on them not debate spill over from the other threads. Were talking about class fantasy and how to hybridize archetypes here.

Cleric/Summoner Shaman
Protectors of ancestral holyground, the Shaman summons a number of immovable holy totems that radiate their blessings. These Totems powerfully heal nearby allies while debuffing enemies, but are vulnorable to attack and destruction. The Shaman dose not directly heal or buff allies but can use targeted restoration on their totems to keep them standing or cast temporary consecrations to add powerfull buffs to the totems area of effect.

Fighter/Summoner Bladecaller
Are able to animate their melee or ranged weapon, which ever is swapped the other set fights besides them making the attacks the Bladecaller isn't. Thus the Bladecaller is effectivly utilizing both melee and ranged weapon sets at all times and can even direct the animated weapon to attack specific targets, though the weapons are leashd to remain nearby at all.

Fighter/Tank Dreadnought
At the center of the fray the Dreadnought is able to attack all adjacent enemies with wide circular swipes and to keep them engaging him alone with powerfull pulls leashes and trips on anyone trying to disengage. The greater their momentum and the more crowded they are the harder they are to hit allowing them dive into and thrive in situations which would doom any other warrior.

I don't know how to give positive feedback on these without 'debate' so, this one time, I'll give the 'unwanted' feedback and you can tell me how 'unwanted' it is.

Cleric/Summoner - e.g. FFXI WHM/SMN, https://paladins-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Grohk and so on
Pretty obvious. I don't agree they should be restricted to not directly healing or buffing allies because that narrows their efficacy in too many situations. It's a restriction to give more flavor/distinction probably but it just ends up making the class bad.

Without that limitation, works well enough.

Fighter/Summoner - We all know her... at least I hope we do? Also certain builds of BDO Nova and Shinbi (but not really)
This is another simplistic, easy to love and implement class fantasy, for people who really have a strong wish/focus on wanting to attack more than one thing at a time with physical damage (please just let Bladecaller summons be Physical Damage, Intrepid). Whether or not I view this as a class fantasy at all comes down to if the game has the potential to make it anything more than either 'a melee Summoner' or 'an AoE fighter that doesn't have to aim', but that's me.

Fighter/Tank - Literally any common bruiser character with a charge skill and AoE CC, TL Sword and Shield/Greatsword, MH Charge Blade, etc
An AoE Fighter that doesn't let you run away and ramps in damage/efficacy uptime if they're surrounded. Always nice to see a balanced one, never been sure if the average person who wants to play one is really 'into it' when it's balanced or has a proper tradeoff, given how many games seem to treat this as the 'newbie' bruiser that you're 'supposed to advance from'. More power to everyone who wants to play some flavor of this, as long as your 'class fantasy' doesn't also include 'Oh and I want to resist CCs too while doing it all and ramping my damage anyway'. At least Greystone has to choose and Grux doesn't... wait, no, Grux does get to do exactly this and it's great... until the enemy team has 3 ranged and focuses on their terrain height advantage options...

(I probably won't mess with your thread by doing this again, consider it a test of how well I can interact with this thread)

Aszkalon

Dygz wrote: »

I mean...
We've been waiting 5+ years for the last two Know Your Nodes articles...
And 7+ years for Nodes 3.
We tend to get info later rather than sooner...

Good things take time, right ?
But Ashes of Creation and Intrepid take this to a completely new Level.

When i think about it,

JUST FOR the amazing Engine alone, which shall enable Players to run around in massive Numbers in the same Area without freakish Frame-incursions and Disconnects ... ...

Lodrig

Azherae wrote: »

I don't know how to give positive feedback on these without 'debate' so, this one time, I'll give the 'unwanted' feedback and you can tell me how 'unwanted' it is.

(I probably won't mess with your thread by doing this again, consider it a test of how well I can interact with this thread)

I was directing that mainly comment at Dygz who is clearly not on topic and just seems to want tell everyone to stop doing anything and 'wait' for the game to be delivered, we already have a thread for that.

I want feedback on the actual class fantasy concepts (as well as other folks to throw out their own ideas), both in how they fufill a fantasy and how evocative they are to play as if you were a player about to pick a secondary and were reading the class descriptions.

And if they sound like they would 'work' in a mechanical sense. And if they sound like the appropriate mix of base and secondary archetype, still fufilling the base role but partially filling the secondary without potentially overshadowing or replacing a party member who had that as their primary. Another element is how you would feel paired with someone with the same primary but different secondaries (which should be a very common occourance), would you feel distinct enough from them or feel redundant, would you litterally get in each others way as you try to do the same thing?

Overall I very pleased with what your providing as it is very constructive critisism.

Azherae wrote: »

Cleric/Summoner - e.g. FFXI WHM/SMN, https://paladins-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Grohk and so on
Pretty obvious. I don't agree they should be restricted to not directly healing or buffing allies because that narrows their efficacy in too many situations. It's a restriction to give more flavor/distinction probably but it just ends up making the class bad.

Without that limitation, works well enough.

I'm hardly the first person to think of the 'healing totem' concept nor to link it with a class called Shaman. My thought was that the totem needs to be very strong area controlers that gives your side a really big boost if your in the area of effect in order for them to be the classes focus as to where to deploy them, to keep them alive etc, think TF2/DRG Engineer sentry level of focus.

I then thought that having big constant AoE healing plus normal individually targeted heals would be OP so the idea is that you cast all thouse heals now only onto the totem itself which 're-broadcasts' onto the area (potentially multiplying the effect for more total healing). This is what I meant by 'not direct'. Note that the intent was for the Shaman to retain all the existing cleric AoE heals and be able to deploy them outside the totem areas without restiction.

Dose that sound more reasonable or is it still leaning in too much?

Azherae wrote: »

Fighter/Summoner - We all know her... at least I hope we do? Also certain builds of BDO Nova and Shinbi (but not really)
This is another simplistic, easy to love and implement class fantasy, for people who really have a strong wish/focus on wanting to attack more than one thing at a time with physical damage (please just let Bladecaller summons be Physical Damage, Intrepid). Whether or not I view this as a class fantasy at all comes down to if the game has the potential to make it anything more than either 'a melee Summoner' or 'an AoE fighter that doesn't have to aim', but that's me.

I agree it should be physical damage, basically same as if you had been attacking with the weapons yourself, though maybe subject to a damage reduction if balance demands it, maybe 50% is appropriate.

A question I did not adress is if the animated weapon is attackable. I tend to view summoner as having a role of 'target saturation' aka making more stuff for enemies to need to engage with. An untouchable weapon dosn't do that and would present less counterplay so I think it makes sense to allow folks to attack and 'kill' it, though the Wild Blade can presumably resummon it again like any summoner replaces losses.

Azherae wrote: »

Fighter/Tank - Literally any common bruiser character with a charge skill and AoE CC, TL Sword and Shield/Greatsword, MH Charge Blade, etc
An AoE Fighter that doesn't let you run away and ramps in damage/efficacy uptime if they're surrounded. Always nice to see a balanced one, never been sure if the average person who wants to play one is really 'into it' when it's balanced or has a proper tradeoff, given how many games seem to treat this as the 'newbie' bruiser that you're 'supposed to advance from'. More power to everyone who wants to play some flavor of this, as long as your 'class fantasy' doesn't also include 'Oh and I want to resist CCs too while doing it all and ramping my damage anyway'. At least Greystone has to choose and Grux doesn't... wait, no, Grux does get to do exactly this and it's great... until the enemy team has 3 ranged and focuses on their terrain height advantage options...

Their is indeed a classic "I am tanking all you bitches" fantasy. I actually drew the element of hitting multiple oponents from an ArcheAge class of the same name which I think was Intrepids source as a lot of the class names look to come from it. Note the intent is for total DPS to ramp up as surrounded, but for single target DPS to remain flat or even decline, this will likely mandate that much of the Fighters abilities to become AoE's that register the number of targets they hit and ramp accordingly. The intent is for you to function like a 'Tar Baby' that gets thrown into the middle of an enemy groups and causes everyone to get stuck to you, but you don't kill them and they don't kill you, but you come out ahead on total damage and kept them from being able to attack your teammates and thus fufilled the role of tanking. It could be tricky to balance but as you point out ranged attacks are the counter and it's possible that the defensive ramping could be made to work only against attacks from the immediatly adjacent enemies which lets distant ones rain in fire at full effectivness.

Lastly we might want to ask if this concept is better for the Tank/Fighter (Knight) and what it would be left doing, could it just be a broadly similar concept with more tank and less fight or should they be radically different? With other pairings of X/Y Y/X it's a bit easier figure out a clear difference (Like Shaman/Necromancer) but tanks and fighters are broadly similar both being frontline, beefy classes expected to take and deal damage in melee so blends of the two can be hard to differentiate.

Azherae

I think that the Dreadnought concept is good as it is and I wouldn't want Knights to think this was their role.

This is because of the same weakness to ranged attacks. I think that in MMORPG 'language', it is easier to understand that a Knight has 'minimal or no defensive weaknesses when actively doing their role', but 'lacks creative ways of doing damage', whereas a Dreadnought would have specific defensive weaknesses, but have more options for doing damage.

(this is technically why Greystone has to choose and Grux doesn't, because Greystone is very clearly a Knight and Grux is very clearly a Dreadnought)

iccer

Okay, here's my concept:

Ranger + Mage aka a Scion

Imagine shooting elemental arrows at your opponents. Finally a ranger class I can actually enjoy.

I'm going to use Frost Mage school augments to demonstrate how this class will differ from the base class.
Also, this would be the easiest to do for me, as we don't really have that much info on what other augments will look like, + we already have base Ranger skills to use as examples.

Here we are going to use our Frost mage augment on the Air Strike ability.

We've all seen it. Many people liked the ability.

- Now with the augment, it will change the Air Strike into a Frost skill.

- Visuals will change accordingly, and instead of root, the skill will now apply freeze.

Is it going to change your playstyle much? Not really. Is it going to feel unique? For sure! Visuals and sound effects play a huge part when it comes to a class theme/fantasy. Hopefully the sound effects also change when augmenting abilities.

Next up, Bear Trap with Frost Mage augment

- Ability becomes a frost trap, freezing anyone who steps over it.

Fairly basic and simple. No need to do more.

Next, we have the Disengage ability - Get icced, dummy

- Also does a backflip in the opposite direction, but it also does a frontal cone AoE, dealing damage and Freezing enemies.

Headshot

- With the Frost Mage augment, this now becomes a Frost Arrow ability, which deals bonus damage to Frozen targets, instead of dealing additional damage to targets below 50% hp (when using the upgraded version).

Raining Death, probably my favorite one

- You get the deal, it's now a frost skill.
- Applies stacks of chilled on hit.

Overall, you become a cc machine, you look like a frost mage, yet you are a Ranger that shoots arrows. Unique enough for me.

--

I could really continue with this, and do every single ability, but I think you get the point by now.
Visually your class is very close to a mage, except you are still a Ranger that shoots arrows, with Ranger mechanics, which should be the entire point of the augment system. The fact that abilities stay relatively the same mechanics wise is not an issue at all. Actually, this way you have several ways of playing a mage-like character, and your base class determines the mechanics. Or you could go for an actual Mage, and play with Mage mechanics, with different subclasses to change the way it looks. Options are there everyone.

It may be difficult to understand this for some people because we don't have actual footage of how the following abilities will look with augments. For now, think of Ashe from League of Legends.

Over these past few days, I've heard people say that none of the subclasses will feel unique enough, because augment system is bad, yet if it is going to work anything like my example, then it's simply not true. I also do expect them to change some abilities much more than I did, especially with other archetypes that are not as clear as mage.

And the main thing is, they do need to nail the visual change when using augmented abilities. They should look different, even if they do the same or similar thing mechanically.

There is a decision to be made whether the class will still mainly deal Physical damage, with only applying elemental status effects/debuffs, or should we convert most of the damage to Frost. I'm fine with either option.

Thoughts? Am I too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Delusional?

Lodrig

Azherae wrote: »

I think that the Dreadnought concept is good as it is and I wouldn't want Knights to think this was their role.

This is because of the same weakness to ranged attacks. I think that in MMORPG 'language', it is easier to understand that a Knight has 'minimal or no defensive weaknesses when actively doing their role', but 'lacks creative ways of doing damage', whereas a Dreadnought would have specific defensive weaknesses, but have more options for doing damage.

(this is technically why Greystone has to choose and Grux doesn't, because Greystone is very clearly a Knight and Grux is very clearly a Dreadnought)

Maybe it's just me but Dreadnought sounds way tankier (Like your a giant steel Battleship) then Knight (who is a mere human in a tincan). So I'm leaning on flipping the names Tank/Fighter named Dreadnogut and Fighter/Tank called Knight. Maybe I feel that way because I had very little familiarity with the use of these terms from other MMORPG's.

In any case I think my class fantasy description I made is more fitting for the Tank/Fighter class what ever that is called and would be easier to code and implement it because the Tank skillset is already closer to the snare/leash activity that is needed, basically make thouse skills ominidirectionl rather then single target.
Make thier basic weapon attacks big circular arcs and swap out the defence bonus from momentum with generation of courage from dealing damage and I think it's a wrap.

Meanwhile the Fighter/Tank might just be a fairly normal fighter in damage output while just being 'beefier', I've said before that Tank secondary should not JUST be adding a side of beef to your character (use gear and stats for that) this is a place where that such simplicity dose sit ok with me and I suspect would sit well with the crowd that just wants to 'be a fighter that dosn't die' and wants a simple meat and potatoes gameplay. Lets be realistic thouse are the kind of people who won't read class descriptions before picking their secondary anyway and will just assume this is what Tank secondary gives.

Dygz

nanfoodle wrote: »

Sure but we knew many details. About 40 words about augments on the wiki. There is many ideas on what they do and how they work. Many are convinced they are a class beyond the core archtype. When all they do is augment the skill of the main class. IMO if clearer picture (more details) soon. Many will be upset and feel cheated.

I would say some examples rather than many details. There are few deatils in the wiki even now.
I think you mean that some people want Ashes Classes to be more like standard Classes in other RPGs - despite what is explained in the wiki?

Can't please all of the people all of the time.
I think the entire playerbase agrees we would like to see more details about Augments sooner rather than later.
Steven does not appear to be interested in sharing more details any time soon.

Lodrig

iccer wrote: »

Okay, here's my concept:

Ranger + Mage aka a Scion

Imagine shooting elemental arrows at your opponents. Finally a ranger class I can actually enjoy.

I'm going to use Frost Mage school augments to demonstrate how this class will differ from the base class.
Also, this would be the easiest to do for me, as we don't really have that much info on what other augments will look like, + we already have base Ranger skills to use as examples.

I could really continue with this, and do every single ability, but I think you get the point by now.
Visually your class is very close to a mage, except you are still a Ranger that shoots arrows, with Ranger mechanics, which should be the entire point of the augment system. The fact that abilities stay relatively the same mechanics wise is not an issue at all. Actually, this way you have several ways of playing a mage-like character, and your base class determines the mechanics. Or you could go for an actual Mage, and play with Mage mechanics, with different subclasses to change the way it looks. Options are there everyone.

It may be difficult to understand this for some people because we don't have actual footage of how the following abilities will look with augments. For now, think of Ashe from League of Legends.

Over these past few days, I've heard people say that none of the subclasses will feel unique enough, because augment system is bad, yet if it is going to work anything like my example, then it's simply not true. I also do expect them to change some abilities much more than I did, especially with other archetypes that are not as clear as mage.

And the main thing is, they do need to nail the visual change when using augmented abilities. They should look different, even if they do the same or similar thing mechanically.

There is a decision to be made whether the class will still mainly deal Physical damage, with only applying elemental status effects/debuffs, or should we convert most of the damage to Frost. I'm fine with either option.

Thoughts? Am I too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Delusional?

Ashe from LoL was all you needed to say but I do like the detailed thought on how individual skills are modified to work with the new theme, for example Headshot now procing on Frozen status rather then damage level *chef kiss*

This is a good example of a how multiple modest 'Flavor' changes to skills can if all consistent and focused achive more then the sum of their parts in making your class play differently, in this case the CC effects of Frost give a mechanical bent to the Ranger making them a more crowd control orietend then vanilla ranger. We get a lot of that by leaning on existing mechanics in elemental damage so Mage secondary is kind of 'easy mode' for making distinctions and I agree that other cases will need to make more changes but not that much more if the design is focused.

The only thing I would change is that I don't belive (due to Intrepid realizing the need to downscope) we get 4 augment choices after picking secondary archetype and I'm making all my class fantasies under that assumption (thus 64 of them rather then 255, I have limits). This leads to a problem of how to get all 3 elements into the Ranger.

My solution, adapt the Ranger Hunt system into an elemental selector, the Hunts lose their current bonus and for their duration imbue the rangers basic attacks and skills with Fire, Ice or Lightning effects. So all the effects that would have been under three augments are now in battle options as you swap Hunts on the fly to determine your elemental type. Lossing the Hunts current effect feels like a reasonable cost and is consistent with you not being a pure ranger anymore. It's notable that a lot of other classes also seem to get 'modes' like fighter stances which could similarly be adapted for element selection when a Mage secondary is taken. Due to how elemental effect stack and proc it is desirable to be firing all the same damage type anyways.

Lastly as for damage ratios I think 1/3rd damage switched to the elemental type would be good, your still principaly a physical damage dealer because Ranger base archetype but your dipping into Mages ability to get around physical defense.

iccer

Lodrig wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Okay, here's my concept:

Ranger + Mage aka a Scion

Imagine shooting elemental arrows at your opponents. Finally a ranger class I can actually enjoy.

I'm going to use Frost Mage school augments to demonstrate how this class will differ from the base class.
Also, this would be the easiest to do for me, as we don't really have that much info on what other augments will look like, + we already have base Ranger skills to use as examples.

I could really continue with this, and do every single ability, but I think you get the point by now.
Visually your class is very close to a mage, except you are still a Ranger that shoots arrows, with Ranger mechanics, which should be the entire point of the augment system. The fact that abilities stay relatively the same mechanics wise is not an issue at all. Actually, this way you have several ways of playing a mage-like character, and your base class determines the mechanics. Or you could go for an actual Mage, and play with Mage mechanics, with different subclasses to change the way it looks. Options are there everyone.

It may be difficult to understand this for some people because we don't have actual footage of how the following abilities will look with augments. For now, think of Ashe from League of Legends.

Over these past few days, I've heard people say that none of the subclasses will feel unique enough, because augment system is bad, yet if it is going to work anything like my example, then it's simply not true. I also do expect them to change some abilities much more than I did, especially with other archetypes that are not as clear as mage.

And the main thing is, they do need to nail the visual change when using augmented abilities. They should look different, even if they do the same or similar thing mechanically.

There is a decision to be made whether the class will still mainly deal Physical damage, with only applying elemental status effects/debuffs, or should we convert most of the damage to Frost. I'm fine with either option.

Thoughts? Am I too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Delusional?

The only thing I would change is that I don't belivel (due to Intrepid realizing the need to downscope) get 4 augment choices after picking secondary archetype and I'm making all my class fantasies under that assumption. This leads to a problem of how to get all 3 elements into the Ranger.

My solution, adapt the Ranger Hunt system into an elemental selector, the Hunts lose their current bonus and for their duration imbue the rangers basic attacks and skills with Fire, Ice or Lightning effects. So all the effects that would have been under three augments are now in battle options as you swap Hunts on the fly to determine your elemental type. It's notable that a lot of other classes also seem to get a trinity of 'modes' like fighter stances which could similarly be adapted for element selection when a Mage secondary is taken.

Lastly as for damage ratios I think 1/3rd damage switched to the elemental type would be good, your still principaly a physical damage dealer because Ranger base archetype but your dipping into Mages ability to get around physical defense.

My fears are as follows:

- First, they need to redesign thousands of abilities. I know they have a system in place which will allow them to easily do so, but I fear that we might not see enough of a visual difference between abilities. Maybe only a recolor with different particles.

- Second, in order to make the abilities feel different, sound effects will also have to change. I'm not sure if they plan on doing that, because again, that's a lot of work, considering there are so many abilities.

Regarding schools of augments, maybe we can mix and match, maybe we can only use 1 school at a time. We (I) don't know.

Regarding the damage, I'm not sure if that is a good option to mix it like that. The reason being, someone who's fully focused on one damage type, will usually do more damage than a hybrid class. Now this might not be true for Ashes, but I've seen it with many other MMOs (From GW2, to Archeage).
Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to play a hybrid class, that's hopefully viable.

Azherae

Anyways, since I no longer have an excuse not to do it, quick reference of the associations my mind makes. Those who think MOBAs and Arena Shooters have nothing to do with MMORPGs can just ignore everything down to Summoner, this is just there for shorthand. I purposely didn't quickparse the links into the BBCode versions, sorry.

Tank/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Riktor, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Makoa, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior (but with Paladin as sub, at higher levels. It's hard to explain, like most deeper MMO stuff, obviously)
Tank/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Greystone, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Terminus, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Samurai (tank builds, uncommon)
Tank/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Khaimera (heavy tank builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ninja (technically this should be Warrior with Ninja sub if talking about ye olde days), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Nyx
Tank/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Terra (most builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dragoon (later, assuming Sentinels even get pet stuff)
Tank/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Sevarog (certain oppression builds - minimal/no passive damage), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rune_Fencer (or PLD/RDM, RDM/PLD, etc)
Tank/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Sevarog (regeneration builds, but there's no more Wellspring), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Torvald, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Paladin
Tank/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Steel (really specific buff+debuff builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Khan
Tank/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kwang (kind of a stretch but if you really know what you're doing...), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Inara, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Beastmaster (using one of their tanky pets and building as tank as possible themselves)

Fighter/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Rampage, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Raum, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior (purest concept)
Fighter/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Grux, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ash, give FFXI WAR a 1hAxe and shield but any reasonable defensive subjob
Fighter/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/FengMao, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ash, give FFXI WAR two 1hAxes (or 1 axe one sword, whatever you like really) and subjob Ninja, or any good 2H weapon and subjob Thief (but you still won't get good evasion really)
Fighter/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Zarus (as sustain-opener), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Tiberius, FFXI WAR with Ranger Subjob and a fast Crossbow
Fighter/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Crunch, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Azaan (certain builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Mage with Warrior subjob (or Ninja if you like fast weapons, Dark Knight if you prefer slower)
Fighter/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Khaimera, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Torvald, FFXI Red Mage or Blue Mage in most melee forms,
Fighter/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Grux (specific debuff stack build), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Octavia, FFXI WAR with GreatAxe specifically and Dancer subjob
Fighter/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/Grux (specific debuff stack build), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Barik, FFXI Beastmaster with one of their offense pet options maybe

Rogue/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kallari, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Koga, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Thief with Ninja subjob for max Rogue-ing
Rogue/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Shinbi (most builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Androxus,
https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ninja with Warrior subjob (usually. THF/WAR also works)
Rogue/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Serath (most builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Zhin,
as you'd expect, FFXI THF/WAR
Rogue/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Zarus (as assassin-closer), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Vatu, FFXI THF/RNG with the right gun or THF/SAM in early game for reasons
Rogue/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Countess, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Talus, FFXI NIN/RDM usually
Rogue/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kallari (really specific builds, Crunch too, very specific), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Maeve (lifesteal and healing), FFXI NIN/WHM (but you only need/use this if you need cleanses and they're either very good or later levels, not from ye olde days)
Rogue/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Shinbi (the other builds)
Rogue/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/Aurora (certain weird builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Kasumi, FFXI Beastmaster or Dragoon with certain builds later game

Ranger/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Murdock, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Kinessa, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ranger
Ranger/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/GRIMexe, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ruckus
Ranger/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Sparrow, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Tyra, FFXI RNG/WAR, as you'd expect
Ranger/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Wraith, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Strix
Ranger/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Revenant, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/VII, FFXI RNG specializing in elemental arrows and damage setups (sometimes RNG/SAM)
Ranger/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kira (lifesteal builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Mal'Damba, FFXI RNG/DNC
Ranger/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Drongo (debuff builds), a different way of using FFXI RNG/DNC
Ranger/Summoner - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Saati, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Vivian sorta

Mage/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Gideon, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Willo, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Mage usually with Scholar subjob
Mage/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Aurora sorta, also Fey if built for Tanking/Sieging, FFXI BLM/BLU
Mage/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Aurora the rest of the time, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Vora, FFXI Dark Knight in some situations
Mage/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Gadget (debatable, but overall turns out this way), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Kasumi depending on interpretation
Mage/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Argus, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Evie
Mage/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Countess (lifesteal focus builds), FFXI BLM/WHM
Mage/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Muriel,
Mage/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/LtBelica, FFXI BLM/SMN (but only some NPCs, actually - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kayeel-Payeel_(S), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vee_Qiqa_the_Decreer - players are not allowed to have their level of power)

Cleric/Cleric - (Predecessor isn't 'allowed' to have pure healing often, but Sevarog/Muriel could previously get close), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Jenos, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/White_Mage often with Scholar subjob
Cleric/Tank - strong healing builds from https://omeda.city/heroes/Riktor, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Furia, WHM/RDM or RDM/WHM
Cleric/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Crunch (crazy players with crazy builds, previously), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Grover, FFXI WHM has various paths to this
Cleric/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Zinx, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Io
Cleric/Mage - This depends too much on a player's definition of 'Mage', but FFXI WHM/BLM was popular for various, and https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Scholar with Black Mage subjob also.
Cleric/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Phase (recently balanced to be even moreso this), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Seris (probably my bias, so also mentioning https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Corvus)
Cleric/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Narbash (specific builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Rei,
Cleric/Summoner - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Grohk, FFXI WHM/SMN (but again, moreso NPC - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lutete )

Bard/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Narbash (most builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bard, some benefit to using https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Corsair as subjob
Bard/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Narbash (tanky builds obv), Sevarog/Shinbi can, but 'passive HP healing' is a pretty big 'divider/tell' for most Bard play and the equivalent item was removed, FFXI BRD/NIN with skilz and an enemy that uses minimal AoE/doesn't resist Sleep
Bard/Fighter - see Bard/Tank above, but less Narbash, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Lillith, FFXI BRD/WAR or very rarely BRD/DRK
Bard/Ranger - The more common 'Harp-Bow' characters from MMOs now, TL Longbow/Wand (with the longbow focused)
Bard/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Gadget (if played as support), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Pip (when you're really creative with positioning), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Corsair (various ways)
Bard/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Phase (aura builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Moji, FFXI BRD/DNC (possible to BRD/THF but I doubt anyone would)
Bard/Cleric - Nearly everything in the 'support' role boils down to this if it has buffs, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Corvus (certain builds), certain Muriel builds, BRD/WHM, etc
Bard/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/LtBelica (specific support builds, highly debatable)

Summoner/Summoner - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Summoner
Summoner/Tank - FFXI Summoner with appropriate summon active (often Titan, sometimes Garuda), tends to focus on improving 'speed' of being able to use summon abilities, and lowering costs, synergizes well with the effect a specific staff in the old days (Terra Staff, PDT up, cost of Titan being summoned reduced)
Summoner/Fighter - See above, but more likely to have summoned Ifrit and focused on 'Avatar Favor' effect to give party Double Attack trait. Depending on the moonphase, might also summon Fenrir.
Summoner/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Dekker (rare, usually only seen by experts messing around in Offlane), FFXI SMN but most likely to have summoned Shiva, kiting and back to 'lowered costs and more frequent abilities', sometimes FFXI BST but too long to explain the specifics of that
Summoner/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/IggyScorch (being generous here), FFXI Summoner with good mastery of Elemental Spirits, and the NPC - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gariri (who doesn't actually use elemental spirits)
Summoner/Rogue - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Saati with very specific focuses in play and build, FFXI Summoner normally doesn't do this, more likely to summon Garuda, or Ramuh (and if Ramuh, Avatar favor effect for Crit)
Summoner/Cleric - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ying, FFXI standard SMN/WHM, will usually have Leviathan summoned if they really need even more healing.
Summoner/Bard - Other Ying builds, specific Belica builds, FFXI SMN with Fenrir, though their performance is moonphase dependent. Also, those who specialize in rapidly switching summon in a rhythm to use each effect as appropriate buff in turn.

Lodrig

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways, since I no longer have an excuse not to do it, quick reference of the associations my mind makes. Those who think MOBAs and Arena Shooters have nothing to do with MMORPGs can just ignore everything down to Summoner, this is just there for shorthand. I purposely didn't quickparse the links into the BBCode versions, sorry.

I certainly do not ascribe to such dismissive attitudes, thouse game types offer very condensed little packages of class fantasy and would be a gold mine for concepts at the broad level that were working with here. I will start going through these but it will obviously take a while, thx for this.

Lodrig

Some Ranger variants, I'll try to get into the habit of giving some insight into the thinking in addition to the raw pitch.

Ranger/Bard Bowsinger
Ovwerwhelmed by the joy of the shared hunt the Bowsinger is no lone wolf, they provide the benifits of their Hunts to nearby allies and when their Mark is downed the whole party exults in restorative and invigorating triumph. Bowsingers make ideal shot callers as they rally a whole team to focus on priority targets.

This is a simple modification, just making the Ranger self buffs into ally buffing in a Bard like fashion. Likewise the Mark system is also turned into a group sustain, likely some HP and Mana, probably varying based on the Mark type, incorporate the Bards sustaining effects in a way that fits a hunting theme. This would be an example of a very simple mechanical changes making a big difference in play.

Ranger/Fighter Strider
While most rangers try to maintain distance to stay exclusivly in ranged combat the Strider has no fear of melee engagement and weaves effortless between the two. Their ranged attacks gain bonus damage and crit chance at short range while their melee attacks likewise benifit when delivered to oponents recently struck by ranged attacks.

This is basically Legolas from the movies, firing at very short range and then going into melee and back again. While any basic ranger could do that the Strider's bonuses make this playstyle the optimum way to play this class and for players who like that mixed melee/range playstyle this is the kind of Ranger to be. I think it would also broadly fit the expectations of players as to what a Ranger/Fighter would be.

Ranger/Rogue Scout
Swifter then the wind the Scout outpaces all others. Their Hunts and abilities focused on speed, maintaing their own stealth and detection of Stealthed oponents making them the ideal information gatherers. While they have lighter damage output then other rangers they maintain good burst damage for hit and run attacks and they coat their arrows with deadly poisons which can paralize and finish off oponents who have been left far behind.

My main inspiration here is the TF2 Scout, admitedly just because it has the name scout so I evokes the idea of using alternating burst of speed, stealth and detection to get in get intel but not nessarily get kills. The idea is that when they do engage in combat it's take out sentries or escape (like some kind of online MetalGear Solid) and thus the emphasis on burst damage and poison from the Rogue comes through to give quick kills or escapes but not a lot of sustained fighting power. Some might think that Ranger/Rogue should be a sniper but I put that gameplay under Rogue/Ranger under the logic that sniping is fundamentally a burst attack from stealth which is core Rogue gameplay, and that if Sniping were the gameplay here then their would be no sufficiently unique gameplay for Rogue/Ranger to differentiate it.

Ranger/Ranger Hawkeye
Perfecting their archery skills to the Hawkeye reaches levels never before dreamed of. Their accuracy, critical hit rate and raw range allow them to win any ranged duel and dispatch melee oponents long before they have a chance to lay a hand on them.

Hawkeye is generally used to denote good eyesight and accurate fire so running with that this is basically the superhuman accuracy fantasy of a Robin Hood or generic elf applied to Ranger to ramp them up to be even more Rangery. As a doubledown class they don't really need new mechanics, but it's important in my opinion for their power ramp to feel differnt from just leveling up, so it's narrower then just doing everything better, they are specifically given a longer range of attack to set them apart from all other Rangers, though this might present balancing issues if the default range is already as high as can be accomadated. Still I think this class might need more.

Lodrig

Cleric/Tank Apostle
A holy martyr willing and able to bear any suffering for the sake of their flock the Apostles ability to heal themself is incredible. They generate extra Divine Power from damage taken and recive bonus HoT and tempoary max hp as well as consuming less mana when self healing. In addition their healing of others establishes a lifelink causing the next hit they take to fall upon the Apostle instead.

Idea here is to be a 'Regen Tank', and out regen the damage rather then mitigate it. That requires first and formost a high HP pool to be able to not be killed in a burst as well as high self healing efficiency, both are rolled into existing healing skills so the Apostle is intended to 'inflate' in battle to a huge hp pool, maybe the highest of any class. I didn't think this class would need much of the traditional tank mechanisms to encourage folks to attack you because in PvP you always go for the healer anyways so a healer who is tanking dosn't need threat/hate mechanics. But it probably dose need SOME ability to protect others if the enemy decides to focus them, thus the heals on others causing damage redirection to you, thus putting your enormouse hp pool between the enemy and your team mates to a degree. Generating divide power on damage taken is a nod to Tanks courage mechainic and makes their self heal potential ramp up when under heavier assault.

As for playstyle it would be be similar to traditional healers in that your spamming thouse heals constantly but more often then normal on yourself, but different in that your not gonna be in the back but now potentially upfront T-posing like a Brazilian statue of Jesus and inviting as much attack as possible, so your gonna be getting some of that Tank gameplay feel. The main difficulty will be mana managment because you don't mitigate incoming damage your group is gonna take more damage and need more healing then with traditional tanks, so that puts a tax on your mana, even with the redused mana cost on selfheals your likely gonna need mana regen support.

Azherae

@Lodrig I desire your opinions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTFqyNe-lzA

I'd have PM'ed you directly but I feel you'd probably just want it here anyway. When you have some time, I still have a reason to want to know if you consider any of these Augments to be at least 'Drastic'. I think the skills are explained sufficiently enough that you probably don't need to look them up.

I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).

Lodrig

Azherae wrote: »

I'd have PM'ed you directly but I feel you'd probably just want it here anyway. When you have some time, I still have a reason to want to know if you consider any of these Augments to be at least 'Drastic'. I think the skills are explained sufficiently enough that you probably don't need to look them up.

Indeed their is enough info to interpret, I would say that that all left be with one work "Perks", the changes are both all buffs and 'Flavor' changes (superfical differences which don't change playstyle). It looks they they are designed to be superficially complex and customizable while actually avoiding altering the underlying gameplay style of the skills but instead to give the player the lttle dopamine hits of "their is my extra proc", "their is my extra damage" etc. It reminded of the Perks in DeepRockGalactic and the clean weapon overclocks. It a lot of design work to make a lot of crunch (and perhapse very fun to optimize) choices which don't run the risk of upsetting any balance or shifting any meta (which can be a good thing if meta is a delicate house of cards already in a state you like).

At most I could see the potential for a more AoE focused vs single target focus play style in thouse options, which presenter even expressed as pve and pvp 'obvious' selections but their no coherent design of an alternative 'kit' from what I can see. Just the potential for players to kind of bend the kit in that direction. But I really have no faith in 'build your own kit' systems, any system capable of the flexibility to make is impossible to balance and invariably results in a meta collapse to a handfull of acceptable options. The game designer must take on the responsibility of designing the kit to be both fun and viable.

But overall I would consider augments that worked like that to be a failure, and possibly the worst kind because it would probably be the result of a long development cycle making all these crunchy changes and carefully testing to ensure they do effectivly nothing. If that level of work is gonna be put in then it really should be to try to use augments to make something that feels like a class.

Lodrig

Azherae wrote: »

I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).

I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.

Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata

Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?

iccer

Lodrig wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).

I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.

Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata

Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?

I find it fun to theorycraft these things, so here's my example:

Cleric / Bard - depending on which augment school they pick, they could focus on more AoE heals, party/raid buffs, or debuffs to enemies.

Cleric / Cleric - generally enhancing any playstyle they go for, depending on the school they pick. They could focus on more HoTs, more powerful single target heals, or debuff removal, etc.

Cleric / Fighter - melee healer, using shorter range attacks, rather than long range spells, being right in your face, in the middle of the fight, healing allies around them, more of a point blank AoE healer if you will.

Cleric / Mage - depending on the school, they could either enhance allies attacks with certain elements, generally offer utility like barrier, blink, decrease cast time, etc.

Cleric / Ranger - I honestly find it hard to come up with something here. Maybe setting up some heal traps, where allies get healed when they step over them. Something with "Hunts". Maybe imbue allies attacks, so any attacks heal them.

Cleric / Rogue - I imagine this as a stealth / combat ress guy. Maybe also visuals change for a more darker theme, rather than holy. In general focus more around shadows.

Cleric / Summoner - Summon holy spirits that heal allies, maybe even totems?? In general, depending on the school, you could either be focusing on holy stuff, with spirits, or dark/death magic, maybe some health sacrifice to heal allies, while using lifesteal to keep yourself up.

Cleric / Tank - more survivability, more defenses, barriers. This is also your frontline healer, but one that can take a punch or two. Those survivability tools are mostly limited to themselves, although they should have some enhanced barrier they can apply to allies as well.

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