Menacing Melody is WAY too over-powered
Y_on
Member
Not sure if this has been asked yet, but why is Menacing Melody a debuff applied to opponents and not a buff applied to the party?
If I'm interpreting this correctly, you'd only need 1 Bard in the entire raid to use it for the entire raid to gain it's benefit. That raid-wide 10% damage buff seems super OP when compared to the other Melodies, which are all party based (and significantly weaker).
Thanks.
⁽ᵃˡˢᵒ, ᵍᶦᵛᵉ ᶠˡᵒᵘʳᶦˢʰ ᵃ ᵐᵒʳᵉ ᵉˣᵗʳᵃᵛᵃᵍᵃⁿᵗ ᵃⁿᶦᵐᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿ ᵃⁿᵈ ⁿᵒᵗ ʲᵘˢᵗ ᵃ ˢˡᶦᵈᵉ. ᵐᵃʸᵇᵉ ᵃ ᵗᵘᵐᵇˡᵉ ᶦⁿ ᵗᵒ ᵃ ˢˡᶦᵈᵉ⁾
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting it be nerfed in to the ground. Just saying it is a slightly more powerful Melody compared to the others which are all party-(not raid) wide. Making it slightly more powerful AND raid-wide (opponent's debuffed) is the issue. This emphasizes a desire for -A- bard in a raid, which takes away a desire for multiple bards in a raid. Just making it a party buff fixes the issue and equalizes the desire for multiple bards in a raid- not wholly necessary, but desirable.
If I'm interpreting this correctly, you'd only need 1 Bard in the entire raid to use it for the entire raid to gain it's benefit. That raid-wide 10% damage buff seems super OP when compared to the other Melodies, which are all party based (and significantly weaker).
Thanks.
⁽ᵃˡˢᵒ, ᵍᶦᵛᵉ ᶠˡᵒᵘʳᶦˢʰ ᵃ ᵐᵒʳᵉ ᵉˣᵗʳᵃᵛᵃᵍᵃⁿᵗ ᵃⁿᶦᵐᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿ ᵃⁿᵈ ⁿᵒᵗ ʲᵘˢᵗ ᵃ ˢˡᶦᵈᵉ. ᵐᵃʸᵇᵉ ᵃ ᵗᵘᵐᵇˡᵉ ᶦⁿ ᵗᵒ ᵃ ˢˡᶦᵈᵉ⁾
Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting it be nerfed in to the ground. Just saying it is a slightly more powerful Melody compared to the others which are all party-(not raid) wide. Making it slightly more powerful AND raid-wide (opponent's debuffed) is the issue. This emphasizes a desire for -A- bard in a raid, which takes away a desire for multiple bards in a raid. Just making it a party buff fixes the issue and equalizes the desire for multiple bards in a raid- not wholly necessary, but desirable.
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It isn't all that useful if you are solo or in a small group. You realistically need 12 or more people to make it worthwhile.
The fact that there are many times where it is underpowered, and some times where it is overpowered result in it being basically balanced.
Additionally, raid encounters will be designed with the notion that this ability will be present. Group encounters do not need to be.
But again, making it so you only need a single Bard for a Raid Boss debuff really diminishes the need for multiple bards in a raid imo. Making it a party wide buff like the other Melodies are doesn't make Bards necessary in each party, but still increases their usefulness beyond a single bard in a raid.
well, not having mana is an issue xD id expect every raid to bring a bard that focuses on the mana regen skill.
also, not needing too many bards is a good thing, since that's always the least played class. we will hopefully have enough since it seems a lot of RPers like playing a bard.
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If your groups is well geared and taking on content for players that are not well geared, you have more important things to question than the usefulness of a bard. There is no reason to not be taking on content that is a challenge to your gear level, so the entire notion of being well geared and not needing much in the way of healing simply shouldn't ever be a situation that comes up.
Sure, I agree. A raid of 40 should not -require- a bard for each group, but it should be helpful (or, at the very least, not be detrimental if one chose to do so). I'm of the opinion that in a raid, a bard in a group should bring as much utility to balance losing a dps slot. That is why Menacing Melody should be balanced to be a party-wide buff like the other melodies, and not a Debuff to the environment (which, in effect, makes it Raid-wide).
I've seen a bit of hype for bard in the communities I frequent, so I'm hoping they're more prevalent than in other games. I was a tank for over a decade, and I think I'll be switching to bard main.
I think this is pulling away from the point I was attempting to address with this post. I'm trying to give value to the Bard class.
By making Menacing Melody a debuff to the boss/mobs in a raid, it essentially says you only -need- one Bard in 40 players for this valuable buff. That gives a great value to ONE bard. For other bards to be desirable, or at the least not detrimental, they also need to provide significant value otherwise what's the point when you can just bring another dps/healer? By making Menacing Melody a party-wide buff (like all the other Melodies Bards have), it adds to the value of ALL Bards in the raid.
You could argue this is true for any class that gives a raid wide buff or boss debuff, but those other classes will also likely be dps or healers, to which they bring other value such as DPS or Healing.
Bards are purely support and should not be able to push the same numbers for dps as dps, or heals for heals. Therefore, for them to have value they should be able to complement all other members in their party to an extent that it balances that loss of an additional dps/healer.
There will be other Bards bringing other support setups (or even Bards with DPS or tank secondary augments) that will be useful in the raid.
It's way too early to declare Menacing Melody the meta raid support skill ... when the Combat Team will be pulling levers on balance in Alpha 2 and into Beta.
I won't disagree with your points about balancing.
I only want to see Bards be a class that is not shrugged off by a raid team because the remainder of their utility is not the equivalent of a dps/healer spot.
I feel Menacing is a stronger Melody than the others in it's current form and just want to see it balanced better.
To balance it, maybe instead it should be a buff to your party members - that they each do a bonus 10% damage.
Looking at what a bard offers us now - without augments - I'd want to run at least 3 bards in my raid, but probably 5 or 6 by the time augments become known.
20% runspeed is huge. If you and I are running raids and are up against each other, if you are only running a 10% damage increase while I am running that 10% damage increase and 20% speed, I am going to win every time - even if I have two less DPS characters than you (I'd probably want two bards running that buff to increase coverage).
10% is 10%, its actually a huge damage boost. Yes I understand your point about how it scaled better with more people, but even with just a bard and +1 its already powerful.
I think support jobs are on their own just simply overpowered, because you just press a button and its turned on, forever, you dont have to think about anything except for staying in range of who you want to have buffed.
In general most games have you just turn it on, and you forget about it and do your own thing, playing like your a regular dps class doing damage to the enemies and just by existing in the world you boost your team.
I would be more excited to see a more active style for enhancer type jobs. The passive buffs are single digit boosts, like 1%, or 2%, but the active buffs are short yet very strong.
For example the bard can select the tank, and give him a 20% damage reduction buff for 10s. The bard can select the mage and give him a mana regeneration for 30s. The bard can select the fighter to give it increased mobility for 30s.
10% of 1000 is 100.
Since the cost of running the melody is the same, the actual value of it is based on how much damage you are already doing. However, the thing to keep in mind is that even this isn't necessarily true - if you are against an encounter that you already have enough DPS present to defeat, all that melody does is save a little bit of time - and it will be less time saved than the run speed boost.
Again, there are indeed times when that 10% damage boost will be clutch. There are also, however, many times when it won't be.
Also everything have a counter. We just don't know what that is. All the base classes have not even dropped. I also think clerics and Bards will be the first targets in every encounter.
it depends how the raid is made. if its made by people who play in CP's, each group will have a bard. otherwise, the raid might not need one per group. we will have to wait and see.
the melody isn't a big issue though. you can account for that when balancing the boss stats. it also gives the bard offensive options or rather, aggressive options. you have a powerful debuff, but you have to go in and put yourself in danger to apply it.
Yes, I understand how 10% works
Just want to point out that in games like ff14, where content is limited to 8 players in the pinnacle content. Single player dps boosts for 20s are typically self 10% or 20% boosts.
Party dps boosts for similar time frames are also 20s or 30s of 10% boost as an example.
10% is a lot, and its limited to such short burst frames.
Having a permanent bard boost of 10%, maintained 100% of the time for only a upkeep cost, that is quite overpowered in my eyes.
When there are only one or two people with the bard, it probably isn't even worth using. When there are 40, it probably is.
As to the rest of your post, 10% would be overpowered in a game that isn't designed with it in mind.
Fact is, the game is being designed with support classes. Ashes can make the content designed with the Bard in mind. Much like most of the content is designed for a balanced team in mind, including a Cleric. If it ends up being two powerful, IS can tune the Bard skills, or adjust the mobs we face. IMO Bards will not be an optional class, they will be your bread and butter.
You are correct in that there will be some folks that just press a button and go on about their day. But I can tell you if bards play like that in our raids, they won't get invited back. If you watch the bard's perspective (Bucky) in the video released Friday, you'll see that he is all over the place, sliding here, there, and everywhere to get maximum spread of his Shielding Dance, switching up the melody depending on what's needed most atm, healing and saga-ing. Being Johnny-on-the-spot. He's also wanding to dps but bard in this game is most definitely not a "turn on a buff and sit back" class like other support classes might be.
I don't see support classes in general as overpowered. As support, they bring diverse, class-defining buffs/debuffs to the table that synergize well with other class abilities. If something is OP it will get sifted out during testing (let's hope).