Dygz wrote: » No need to fix what ain't broke.
Lodrig wrote: » Followup, I realized that a non-war and non-diplomatic system will be nessary for the vassalization of a tier 1 or 2 node because they lack mayors they can not agree to diplomatic vassalization. Likewise a tier 2 nodes ability to gain it's first vassal can't be done by either method due to the lack of a mayor to select a target. This is why the current design uses an automated vassalization based on node XP. I think a better solution can be reached using an embyronic Caravan system to make a delivery to the node and thus claim it. This will provide player agency to the process while preserving as much of what I think Intrepids original intent was. At tier 1 a node gains a chest or NPC which has the capacity to hold special objects called 'Expedition Crates', it holds nothing else but these and has a capacity of 100 and starts empty. At tier 2 (which can be achived with XP alone) a node which is full of XP will have overflow XP generate crates in their stockpile at some rate aimed at being likely to generate about a crate every 5 to 10 minutes under expected XP production rates of a tier 2 node, these crates are labeled with their node of origin but are otherwise identical and functionless, this will eventually fill the stockpile with 100 domestically created crates. Any player can remove a domestically produced crate from the stockpile, possibly subject to a fee or auction price, but can not drop or delete it and can carry only 1 at a time, probably with reduced movement speed unless a mount is used. The crate might be visible to other players but not it's origin node and it will decay away in a few hours when outside a stockpile and decays instantly if they drop on death, this might leave some loot. A person carrying a crate can deposit it into any stockpile, if the stockpile is full then the oldest non-matching-origin crate is destroyed to accomadate it, if they deposit into a forign stockpile they get a modest monetary reward. If a crate of forign origin is in a stockpile then XP is first used to consume it at a comperable rate before new crates are generated, note that Tier 1 nodes can consume crates but not generate them and forign crates can not be removed meaning only XP based consumption can remove them, again oldest forign crate is consumed first. If a Tier 1 or 2 stockpile is ever filled with >80 crates of a single forign node origin then the node is vassalized to that forign node. This includes nodes that are already vassals so they can be stolen away from the current patron, but the patron has an advantage, a vassal node consumes non-patron crates first before consuming patron crates so the usurper must overcome the consumption rate AND push out the patron. Likewise if a vassal node reaches 80 domestic crates they become independent again. Tier 3 through 6 nodes retain their ability to produce and consume crates Mayors can set tasks to deliver crates to specific destinations such as existing vassals to help maintain them, or to aquire new vassals, or to block someone else from gaining a vassal and such deliveries could generate extra rewards subsidized by the town coffers at the mayors discression. In this way a node of any tier can aquire tier 1 and 2 vassals but might face limits on the number of direct vassals they can have. if under such a cap then their crates are deleted upon entering into any node stockpile that is not already a vassal, but all rewards are still generated. It is intended hat the whole system remains in place at higher tiers as a kind of delivery mini-game for players to do for the cash rewards as an individualized alternative to caravans probably with higher rewards for greater distance of delivery and for the crates originating from higher tier nodes, this would likely come with an adjustment to the rate of crate creation for larger nodes and more systems to 'reserve' crates for yourself rathe they relying on first come. This keeps players familiarized with the system and engaged in a low intensity strugle for control of vassals for which outright wars would be unreasonable. Lastly it fits the theme and astetics of tier 1 and 2 nodes with a 'camps' and 'expeditions', logically supplies should be delivered to such things to maintain them. As you can see the system is kind of delivery pushing king-of-the-hill in which a Tier 2 nodes pushes crates onto other nodes and can act without centralized leadership as players just try to get the monetary rewards for delivery. To win this pushing contest a node will need to sustain a higher rate of XP generation as well as do the leg work to deliver the crates. No one is flaged for pvp but it could occour either oportunistically or as an organized defense to prevent vassalization. Other interesting counterplay also exists when a third node of tier 3 or higher is inloved, they could try to deplete the attacking sides crate supply by taking them home to their node to deposit, as hey are already tier 3 this presents no risk to them. Note while a tier 2 node vassalizing a tier 1 node is a one sided push because the tier 1 node produces no crates it is possible for two tier 2 nodes to fight each other both generating and consuming each others crates untill one wins. Two different nodes might battle over the vassalization of a third node trying to push more crates to it. Point is that it is all player driven but because all crate creation is a byproduct of XP it's inherently self-throttling, only a fraction of players in a node can be doing deliveries because someone needs to be generating XP which crate deliveries do not, thus normal PvE play dominates while crates act as a soft intro to caravans and node-2-node commerce for that segment of econ focused players and thouse guilds focused on node advancement and empire building letting them flex their organizational muscle. Lastly you have the possibility that the player who deposited the most crates to a successful vassalization might get a prize, maybe a large monetary prize, rights or privlages in their home node, maybe even becoming the first mayor if the vassalization is what took their node to tier 3.
Noaani wrote: » Indeed you can. In the next election.
Mag7spy wrote: » you can raise up by leaving and joining another node to attack them, yes.
scottstone7 wrote: » Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. Noaani wrote: » Indeed you can. In the next election. So, basically, what I get from that statement, is that you are saying you get to vote on who potentially vassalizes your home node? Are you saying you get to vote on whether your home node gets vassalized or not? Which nodes are above you? On who gets to be the mayor of each node above yours? I mean, if you get to vote then, yeah, it’s not an automatic system check or a force vassalization. No rebellions needed. Problem solved. Sorry, I misunderstood literally all the information available about those exact things on the wiki. Whew, that’s totally a my bad situation. Someone should really clear off all that well documented bad information on the wiki though otherwise more people might come to the same incorrect conclusion. Mag7spy wrote: » you can raise up by leaving and joining another node to attack them, yes. Not really even sure how to respond to that statement without sounding condescending….So I’m not even going to try. I suck at story writing but here goes. Daddy - Sit down babydoll, let Daddy tell you about some grown up stuff involving groups of bad people and those that fight against them. Daughter – Okay Papa! Daddy - Okay, so, there are some bad people out in the world, it sucks but it’s true. Some of those bad people form up into group to take from anyone they can. Sometimes those bad groups of people even manage to enslave towns or villages or even other smaller groups of people, forcing them to do things or take their valuables. Now, as you can imagine, those enslaved people will not be happy about it. Daughter – But Papa, if they are not happy why don’t they just move somewhere else? Daddy- Some do baby girl, some do. Maybe even most, and some could argue that they are the smart ones. Daughter – I’m smart, I can do my numbers and my abz’s too. Daddy – Yes babydoll, you are very smart. Now back to what I was talking about. There are some people out there who refuse to give up everything they have worked so hard for. Those people then in turn start to gather and form small groups of their own, that’s what we call an uprising or a rebellion. Those groups will then begin to fight back trying to make things more difficult for the bad people, maybe covertly at first. Daughter – Papa! What does covertly mean? Daddy – It’s just a fancy word for secret baby girl. When I used it like that it was to say they would try to stay hidden, not let the bad people find out what they were up to. Daughter – Ohh, so Mama covertly gives me ice cream after dinner sometimes? Daddy – Sure babydoll, she tries to covertly give you ice cream sometimes. Now where were we? Ah, yes. After some time of operating covertly they will then start doing smaller things in the open without trying so much to stay hidden. If they can manage to start really making things more difficult for the bad people, then after a while they will begin to openly fight the bad people, usually in smaller numbers at first. If the bad people do not figure out what’s going on and put a stop to it then eventually the people rebelling against them will attack them outright and try to take control of their home back from them. Daughter – I want to help fight the bad people too Papa! Daddy – No baby girl, you said so yourself, you are smart. That’s why you are going with your Mama to stay somewhere safe. Daddy will stay here and fight for our home. In case my horrible attempt at story writing didn’t convey the point. Leaving is not an act of rising up. I will agree that leaving can be a form of revolt in and of itself, but it is not rising up to overthrow an oppressor. Leaving is more akin to giving up than rising up. If you leave to join another group, you are still not rising up. That's just running away to hide under mommy's skirt hoping she will scare the bullies off for you. Dygz wrote: » No need to fix what ain't broke. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is broken. I do believe it will work as it is currently planned. I'm just saying it could be better. Why do you use a pen or pencil to write on paper? Charcoal sticks worked just fine. For that matter, why do you even write on paper? Stone tablets are hands down more durable and sturdier than paper; they worked just fine. An idea does not just have to be about fixing what's broken, but improvement in general. And in case you haven't noticed yet, the game is still being developed. That's the time to come up with ideas for improvement, push those idea's, and if those ideas are good hopefully have them implemented.
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Dygz wrote: » No need to fix what ain't broke. Some of us believe it IS broken
scottstone7 wrote: » Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. Noaani wrote: » Indeed you can. In the next election. So, basically, what I get from that statement, is that you are saying you get to vote on who potentially vassalizes your home node? Are you saying you get to vote on whether your home node gets vassalized or not? Which nodes are above you? On who gets to be the mayor of each node above yours?
Caeryl wrote: » It's still funny that player agency is important to you when it comes to a higher node siphoning resources from vassals under its jurisdiction, but not when it comes to loot being siphoned up by guild leads. Why is it that 'your' node not having a way to usurp top spot (not even that the parent node is handling things poorly, just that you don't want to be part of a vassal node) something that's 'broken'?
Caeryl wrote: » You'll know the moment a nearby Node hits 3 if your preferred node wins out or not. If it didn't, you are free to siege that stage 3 Node, because there are no citizenships for Nodes at stage 1 and 2. You can take part and knock it down to make way for your prefered node to grow up first the next time around. If that siege fails, then you were overruled through the power of the players not wanting the same thing you want.
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » It's still funny that player agency is important to you when it comes to a higher node siphoning resources from vassals under its jurisdiction, but not when it comes to loot being siphoned up by guild leads. Why is it that 'your' node not having a way to usurp top spot (not even that the parent node is handling things poorly, just that you don't want to be part of a vassal node) something that's 'broken'? There's a shitton of choice in a guild situation. Choice of GL, of guild playstyle, guild size, guild composition, and pretty much every other thing that's related to how a guild could be structured or how it could treat its players. What choice do you have with vassal-parent relations? Suck it up or leave. Awesome. Incredible! Revolutionary even. Oh wait, THERE IS NO DAMN REVOLUTION Caeryl wrote: » You'll know the moment a nearby Node hits 3 if your preferred node wins out or not. If it didn't, you are free to siege that stage 3 Node, because there are no citizenships for Nodes at stage 1 and 2. You can take part and knock it down to make way for your prefered node to grow up first the next time around. If that siege fails, then you were overruled through the power of the players not wanting the same thing you want. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Node_siegesA node siege may not be declared for 21 days following a node advancing to any stage.[28][29] Just sieging doesn't work. At first you literally can't and then it would take you the same amount of time a node takes to level up to its lvl to acquire the required resources for its siege. And you know what happens during that time? YOU BECOME A VASSAL. Got fokced, boiiii. Intra-guild relationships are not even close to the restrictions of inter-node relationships.
Caeryl wrote: » Maybe I'd commiserate more if citizenship, aka the thing that locks you from declaring a siege on a specific node, was automatic, but since it isn't automatic, you are free to wait out that timer and declare a siege on the stage 3 node. If the node goes from Village to Metro before the lockout ends, then its very obvious people in that region didn't share you node type preferences and wouldn't join the attacking siege anyway. There is no damage done by being a vassal, and choosing to become a citizen of a vassal node is an active choice you make, not one inflicted on you. You literally HAVE to choose to be part of a vassal node. If that's a deal breaker, why would you ever choose to put yourself in a vassal position when you could go to another area of the world where a Divine metro has formed/is forming?
Caeryl wrote: » Every further interaction indicates some kind of lack of understanding, or maybe just that it's devolving into bad faith discussions, but either way in case you genuinely didn't know, nodes are not the units that declare a siege. Players are. Any player that isn't a Citizen of a vassal node can declare a siege. Even if they spend most of their time in a vassal node, or use the bank in a vassal node, or use the services in that vassal node, as long as they didn't OPT-IN to being a citizen of that vassal node, they can declare a siege on the parent.
Lodrig wrote: » Thx for the complement, the descritpion came out really dense as I kept thinking of how the system might break or be exploited and kept adding clarifying rules to guid the gameplay down intended directions and thouse often don't make sense immediatly when reading. Note that this systems operates entirely at node level, guilds never become flagged or mechanically in any state of hostility or competition, though obviously guild members would partispate. Nodes at tier 1 and 2 can't declare war or be the targets of war declarations but if groups assosiated with them react to crate pushing by going to war, all the better as the formal war and crate game will occour similutaniously and offter players multiple ways to fight for their side and strategic choices will need to be made. Lastly note that I had not intended for these 'expedition crates' to be carried in the large caravan wagons because they need to be carried by individuals without access to a wagon when the game starts and every node is at no higher then tier 2. Were told that caravans spawn from building in nodes of level 3 or higher and I'd be concerned about possibly of imeediatly flooding a node with all the crates nessary to vassalize if big wagons fulls could be delivered all at once without time for counter-play. If the wagon capacity is kept to a reasonable amount then it might be possible, and it would represent an advantage that higher tier nodes have in the competition, it would certainly help make maintance of a vassal node easier if just a few wagons a day being delivered was needed to maintain the vassal node rather then many more individual deliveries.
"Any player can remove a domestically produced crate from the stockpile"
scottstone7 wrote: » I wouldn't go so far as to say it is broken. I do believe it will work as it is currently planned. I'm just saying it could be better. Why do you use a pen or pencil to write on paper?
Kyskei wrote: » I never thought a post I made would get this popular. makes me feel good inside I am honored you all have been paying attention to it.
