The Tank Class Augmented

just_Yxon · September 24

(edits for formatting & updating some Classes)
| 9.25 Guardian, Unholy Paladin | 9.24 Argent, Paladin |
Warning: This is wordy, so if you don't like long posts probably best to skip this one.
Edit: Great point from Lodrig about playing with Courage more.

In a ToC stream a few nights ago they were talking about tanking, and one of the comments that had been brought up was a fear that Augments might not really change the game play much of classes after we get our Secondaries. I can understand that point of view to an extent, but I hope it's wrong. While we will still have all our Primary archetype abilities, allowing for Augments can really push class individuality in specific directions if handled correctly. Given the in-depth design behind all of Ashes systems so far, I doubt they would flake out on the Class system with something basic.

So, I present to you a thought experiment on where the 8 tank-role classes could go...

Keep in mind:
* Visuals will play a large part in this
* This is just a thought experiment with a focus on flavor and concept, not balancing.

First and foremost, and somewhat important (but not pivotal) to this entire experiment, is a series of suggested Tank Class skills unlocked at level 25, when we unlock our ability to take on Secondaries: the Perfect Defenses.

Some familiar with the concept may not fancy the idea of a Perfect Defenses system, and talents may allow for some ...mitigation (*fingerguns*) of their dislike of one. For example, one talent may increase the Perfection window to 2 seconds; and to give benefit to those that enjoy the system, a rival talent may give the tank a 15% critical strike bonus during a similar window.
However, even without Perfect Defenses, stacking Block, Dodge, and Parry Ratings to gear could allow these abilities to trigger passively. So, by stacking gear for passive benefits, or adding another level of gameplay for tanks - the concepts listed below still stand on their merit.

The Perfect Defenses are, as you'd surmise, using a defensive skill within a brief window of time (.5 second/ 1 second?) of your opponent's attack. This can be used for a number of different defense types: evasion, blocking, parrying, and shielding. By leaning in to each of these specific defense types, we can create a series of classes that are distinctive from each other and shine during different types of encounters. Some classes may be better at facing solo foes, others for multiple combatants, some PVE, some PVP, and even some ranged.

Below I'll talk a bit more about Perfect Defenses, detractors of the idea can just skip it to get to the Class concepts in the next section. Just interpret "augmented Perfect <defense>" as "augmented Successful <defense>"

Perfect Defenses each have a separate 3 second internal CD on success that is not reset by any means (modified by balance, of course).

The Perfect Block - Using a Shield Block or Block ability within the window of an opponent's attack. Nullifies the Blocked attack and returns damage based on the tank's Block Mitigation Rating. Though it nullifies the attack, this ability is considered Block tanking, as even on failure some of the damage will likely be mitigated.
The Perfect Dodge - Give Tanks a window (.5 sec/1 sec) that their Dodge ability gives them an iFrame (invulnerability), nullifying the attack. Make the stamina cost on Tanks Dodge ability based on their weight carried/ worn, so that heavily armored tanks have a much higher cost when attempting. This will focus more evasion type game play for Medium armored tanks.
The Perfect Parry - Nullifies the attack. Though it is not necessarily an dodging maneuver, as it nullifies the incoming attack it is considered Evasion Tanking. This ability can be triggered in multiple ways:
1. Timing the first attack of your weapon combo at the same time as your opponent attacks with a melee weapon.
2. Subsequent attacks of your weapon combo have a 10% chance of triggering it.
3. Weapon combo attacks that have been talented in to beyond the range of the normal combo - allowing players to stall the end of their weapon attack combo to bait their opponent before continuing their onslaught.
4. Inciting Strikes.
5. Other ways indicated by the Class.

I'll go over the Guardian first, as it will use all types of Perfect Defense in it's Augmenting. This should make understanding the interplay of other classes easier.

Guardian (Tank Tank)

Class Fantasy: The Ultimate Defender
Gameplay Favoring: Tankiest Tanks - Mobility
What makes them a threat in PVP: High maneuverability, short CD's on Control and Ally Dmg Mitigation
Preferred Equipment: Heavy armor, any weapon combination

Augmented Skills:

Duelist's Repose - augmented Perfect Parry
* Effect: Applies Disarmed to your opponent, grants the user the Conflict effect, and gains an additional charge of Overpowering/ Inciting Strikes (up to 2).
Unbreakable Bulwark - Tank augmented Perfect Block
* Effect: Doubles the effect of Reflect, causes your next Slam to cost no Mana or resets the CD of Shield Assault.
Elusive Disdain - augmented Perfect Dodge
* Effect: Restores the Stamina cost of Dodge, grants Mana equivalent of the restored Stamina cost, applies Demoralized to your opponent, and reduces all CDs by 2 second.
Dauntless Rappel - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: Throws 3 hooked chains in to a group of enemies, Snaring each of them. Resets the CD of Overpowering/ Inciting Strikes, then launches the Guardian in to the middle of the group, landing with a Tremoring Bellow.
Impeding Savior - augments Protect
* Effect: Consumes Courage, immediately rushes towards an Ally granting them the Shield effect.
Get Out of Here - augments Tomahawk
* Effect: Temporarily Incapacitate your target as you pick them up and throw them in a direction, damaging those in the landing area. +50% damage to targets hit from behind and the Thrown.
Overpowering Strikes - augmented Inciting Strikes
* Effect: Inciting Strikes+, Knockback, stacks Demoralized
Crushing Blows - augments Inciting Strikes
* Effect: Inciting Strikes+, inflicts additional damage on your opponent's Weapons and Armor, does triple damage against Shield effects, stacks Demoralized.

Argent (Tank Bard)

Class Fantasy: Standard/ Flag Bearer
Gameplay Favoring: Evasion tanking - Buffer
What makes them a threat in PVP: Rallying Banner skill, constantly Buffing and Debuffing groups
Preferred Equipment: Medium Armor, one-hand/off-hand, dual wield

Augmented Skills:

Rallying Banner - augment replaces Absorption Field
* Effect: The Argent throws their battle standard in to the ground, calling out defensive formations. Resets all the Argent's CD's. Depletes the Argent's Courage, all party members gain a Shield effect with the health of (Courage x Multiplier spent). Breaking the Shield on the Argent removes all applied party Shields. (Shielding concept by Twitch: NyceGamingTV). All Shielded party members within range of the banner gain Conflict/Arcane Might.
* Effect: Absorption Field+, the Argent throws their battle standard in to the ground, resetting their CDs. All Allies within range of the banner gain Absorption Field and Conflict/Arcane Might.
Cavalry Charge - augmented Charge
* Effect: All members of your party (not raid) gain the Charge effect.
Derisive Riposte - augmented Perfect Parry
* Effect: Reflects the Parried attack damage and effects back on to the opponent, applies Demoralized, and gives all party members Pep for 6 seconds.
Demoralizing Dodge - augmented Perfect Dodge
* Effect: Gives the user Pep, applies Demoralized, and resets the CD for Mocking Jeer/Tremoring Bellow
Mocking Jeer - augments Tremoring Bellow
* Effect: Applies Demoralized to all Foes within range, Humiliated to all foes that are Demoralized, and all members of your party (not raid) gain Anthem of Alacrity for 6 seconds.
Feint - augments Tomahawk
* Effect: Tomahawk+, quick throw a long knife, interrupting your current attack or ability attempting a Perfect Parry. "It's all in the reflexes."

Colossal (Keeper) (Tank Summoner)
Class Fantasy: Indomitable warrior controlling the earth and terrain
Gameplay Favoring: Shielding - Controller
What makes them a threat in PVP:
Preferred Equipment: Heavy armor, two-handed weapons

Augmented Skills:

Earthbinder's Will - augmented Grit
* Effect: Grit+, breaks CC, immediately gain the Shield affect. Casting any Summoner Augmented ability refreshes this Shield but does not stack it.
Unyielding Rampart - augmented Wall
* Effect: Wall gets 3 charges, and Walls can be rotated vertically and horizontally. This can be used to wall off higher areas, or create bridges over the environment. Vertically rotated walls will spawn out from the Colossal. Walls rotated vertically can also Knockback, Stun, and damage those hit by it. These walls cannot be used to knock opponents off cliffs, opponents will land on the end of the wall when Stunned.
Battering Charge - augmented Charge
* Effect: Creates a W-shaped wall in front of the Colossal as they charge their enemies. Enemies will suffer Knockback and Stagger effects. As enemies will slide in to the grooves of the W-shape when they are charged (keeping them slightly 'behind' the tank), this ability can be used to knock enemies off cliffs so long as the Colossal is willing to run off the edge themselves.
Earthen Bulwark - augment replaces Absorption Field
* Effect: All Allies within range of the cast will gain Hold the Line, and Shield effects. They can move about freely after the cast and do not need to stay in range.
Hewn Stalactite - augment replaces Tomahawk
* Effect: High threat and damage. Rend an earthen spear from the ground and hurl it at an enemy. Pierces all enemies within it's thrown pathing range.

Knight (Tank Fighter)

Class Fantasy: Paragon of Military Excellence
Gameplay Favoring: Block Tank - Damage - Mobility
What makes them a threat in PVP:
Preferred Equipment: Heavy armor, one-handed weapons and shield

Augmented Skills:

Valorous Throw - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: The Knight throws their weapon (or shield) towards a group of enemies, ricocheting off those in range before returning. High damage and threat.
Cavalier's Charge - augment replaces Charge
* Effect: Gains 2 charges. Breaks CC, the Knight quickly mounts up and charges forth, damaging and Incapacitating all in their path. Once Incapacitation ends, those struck are Staggered. Like the Bard Flourish, this ability can be steered and is not solely for moving forward.
Valiant Counter - augmented Perfect Block
* Effect: After a perfect Block the Knight gains a charge of Inciting Strikes CD (up to 2).
Martyr's Rejoinder - augmented Protect
* Effect: Protect+, damage done to those under your protection redirect a quarter (down from half) damage to you and a quarter of the damage to all Foes around you.
Coward's Demise - augmented Tomahawk
* Effect: Tomahawk+, throws a lance at a Foe, doing 200% more damage to targets hit from behind.
Heroic Rally - augmented Tremoring Bellow
* Effect: Tremoring Bellow+, applies Demoralized to Foes, and Bolster Vitality to Allies.

Nightshield (Tank Rogue)

Class Fantasy: Shadow-fused Assassin, Nightmare in the Dark
Gameplay Favoring: Evasion Tank - Shielding - Damage
What makes them a threat in PVP:
Preferred Equipment: Medium armor, dual wielding

Key Mechanics:

* Shadow Decoys are illusionary replicants of the Nightshield. When shadow decoys are created the Nightshield will randomly switch spots with one of them, making it visually impossible for the viewer to know which is the Decoy. (Toggleable?, as the gameplay may be too jarring for some)
* You may create a maximum of 5 Shadow Decoys at a time.
* Decoys mirror your attacks, doing 10% of the damage, but giving every hit a 3% chance of resetting your Inciting Strikes CD.
* Decoys have 25% the Nightshield's health. When they are defeated they give the Nightshield a not-stacking Shield effect, 10 Courage, and the Foes delivering the killing blow gains a stack of Wounded.

Augmented Skills:

Illusory Stalker - augmented Charge
* Effect: Move forward at half normal Charge speed, but splitting in to two Shadow Decoys.
Night's Edge - augmented Perfect Dodge
* Effect: Gives the Nightshield Pep, creates a Decoy, and refreshes their Inciting Strikes CD.
Shadow Walk - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: Creates a Decoy at the target that teleports them to the Nightshield.
Penumbra - augmented Grit
* Effect: Grit+, instantly summons a Decoy.
Umbral Champion - augmented Fortify
* Effect: Fortify+, makes the Nightshield immune to CC and grants them Conflict.

Holy Paladin (Tank Cleric)

Class Fantasy: Blessed Defender of the Weak, Unwavering Pillar of Justice
Gameplay Favoring: Block Tanking - Healing - Reflective Damage
What makes them a threat in PVP: Divine Intervention skill, healing output to Allies.
Preferred Equipment: Heavy armor, one-handed weapons and shield

Key Mechanics:
*Holy damage acts normally in regards to npcs and mobs. However, in PVP Holy 'damage' heals non-combatants, does normalized damage to Combatants, and does double triple against Corrupted.

Augmented Skills:

Divine Intervention - augment replaces Reflect
* Effect: Kneeling in Prayer, the Paladin is Incapacitated. Depletes the Paladin's Courage, all party members gain a Shield effect with the health of (Courage x Multiplier spent). Breaking the Shield on the Paladin removes all applied party Shields. (Shielding concept by Twitch: NyceGamingTV). All Shielded party members heal to full within 10 seconds if the Shield is not broken.
Divine Judgment - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: Calls down a pillar of Holy damage in a small area, causing significant threat and damage.
Light's Veil - augment replaces Wall
* Effect: Casts in front of the Paladin. Blocks enemy missile attacks. Foes passing through get Humiliated (refreshes until the Paladin dies), Allies passing through gain a Shield. Corrupted passing through gain Shaken.
Hallowed Ground - augmented Absorption Field
* Effect: Absorption Field+, pulses with Divine Flare.
Shelter of the Righteous - augmented Perfect Block
* Effect: Refreshes the CD of Divine Judgment, doubles the effect of Reflect, and gives the Paladin the Thorns effect for 5 seconds, dealing Holy damage
Righteous Prayer - augmented Tremoring Bellow
* Effect: Tremoring Bellow+, unleashes a Consecrated Wave.
Sacred Words - augment replaces Tomahawk
* Effect: A moderate, instantaneous heal to an Ally (cannot be self).
Mete Repentance - augment replaces Slam
* Effect: Knocks back your opponent and Incapacitates them temporarily.

Unholy Paladin - Daea'din (Tank Cleric)

Class Fantasy: Corrupting Bringer of Death, Anti-Paladin, Shadow Knight, Domination and Cruelty
Gameplay Favoring: Control - Shielding - Damage
What makes them a threat in PVP: Persistent AoE damage and Debuffing
Preferred Equipment: Heavy armor and two-handed weapons

Key Mechanics:

* Unholy damage acts normally in regards to npcs and mobs. However, in PVP Unholy damage deals half damage against Corrupted.
* Blood Shield: Daea'din affected by a Blood Sheild cannot be healed by others, they may only self heal. Blood Shield is a Shielding effect of half the Daea'din's Max Health. 10 seconds after Combat ends, the Blood Shield fades and the Daea'din heals for that amount. If the Daea'din is at full health before it ends, their Fortify cd is refreshed.

Augmented Skills:

Pestilence - augmented Absorption Field
* Effect: Absorption Field+, all Foes within range of the AoE are Snared, Demoralized, and take Unholy damage for every meter they move. If a Foe has taken damage from Pestilence and dies in the AoE effect, the range of Pestilence increases by 1 meter. Pestilence does not fade until the Daea'din is killed or combat ends.
Grasp of the Dead - augmented Grapple
* Effect: Throws out 3 bone chains to draw opponents to the Daea'din, Snaring them and applying Chill.
Wall of Bone - augmented Wall
* Effect: The Wall created Grapples those within a certain range every few seconds, Snaring and attacking those within melee range.
On a Pale Horse - augmented Charge
* Effect: Charge+, The Daea'din mounts a skeletal steed and rushes forth, breaking and becoming Immune to CC. When they dismount they are granted a Blood Shield.
Sadistic Onslaught - augmented Inciting Strikes
* Effect: Inciting Strikes+, stacks Wounded and Bleed on the those hit.
Domination - augmented Perfect Parry
* Effect: Every attack of the Daea'din's weapon combo has a 20% chance of triggering Domination. Triggering resets the CD of Sadistic Onslaught, grants the Daea'din Conflict.
Sanguine Curse - augmented Grit
* Effect: Grit+, fills the Daea'din's Blood Shield to full, damaging Foes within range for (that amount divided by the number of Foes affected).
Blasphemous Frenzy - augment replaces Indomitable Spirit
* Effect: Absorb all Bleed effects within Range (healing Allies, damaging Foes) to replenish your Blood Shield.

Elemental Spellshield (Tank Mage)

Class Fantasy: Elemental Battle Mage, Elemental Synergies
Gameplay Favoring: Shielding - Reflection - Damage
What makes them a threat in PVP:
Preferred Equipment: Heavy armor

Key Mechanics:

* Elemental effects have a rock-paper-scissor dynamic, Fire-Ice-Lightning. A Spellshield may match their Elemental defensive and offensive outputs to ramp up their debuffing of opponents, or they may alternate those outputs to play on their discordance.
* As skills may be Augmented by different Elements, their skill Icons should be gray-scaled and overlaid with the appropriate Element-related color.
* Elemental Backlash occurs when an Elemental buff or debuff is removed by it's Counter Element. The victim of Elemental Backlash is Staggered, takes double the damage of the attack that broke the de/Buff, and takes on a stack of the Debuff's appropriate Element. Non-stacking de/Buffs are considered to have 6 stacks for 'countering' purposes.

Augmented Skills:

Elemental Rush - augmented Charge
* Effect: Charge+, the Spellshield becomes one with the augmented Element, turning off Collision until they stop and leaving an Elemental Wall in their Wake.
Elemental Wall- augmented Wall
* Effect: Passing near or through the augmented Element damages Foes and stacks the appropriate Elemental Debuff on them.
Elemental Orb - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: Casts a ball of the augmented Element at a Foe that explodes and damages/ Debuffs all within range.
Elemental Blast - augment replaces Inciting Strikes
* Effect: Blasts the area in front of them with augmented Element damage/ Debuffs, wider and longer range than Inciting Strikes.
Elemental Surge - augmented Tomahawk
* Effect: Tomahawk+, Elemental damage and debuffing.
Imbue Weapon - augment replaces Slam
* Effect: Choose an Element to Imbue upon your weapon. Your weapon attacks will do additional Elemental damage and Debuffing. If attacking a player buffed or debuffed by an element vulnerable to your Imbued weapon's element, remove stacks of that de/buff. When the de/Buff is nullified, inflict Elemental Backlash.
Elemental Sheathing - augment replaces Ancestral Bolas
* Effect: Apply an Elemental Shield to the Spellshield, gaining the Shield effect. This Shield is replenished by the sheathed element, and vulnerable to it's counter element. If an Elemental Sheathing is broken by it's counter element, the effects of Elemental Backslash are doubled.

Arcane Spellshield (Tank Mage)

Class Fantasy: Battle Mage, Arcane - the Master Above All
Gameplay Favoring: Evasion Tank - Control | Ranged Counter, Unpredictable gameplay
What makes them a threat in PVP:
Preferred Equipment: Medium armor, Arcane-damaging Weapons

Key Mechanics:

* Mirror Images are illusionary replicants of the Arcane Spellshield.
* The Spellshield may have a maximum of 2 Mirror Images at a time.
* Mirror Images mirror your attacks, doing 25% of the damage, but giving every hit a 15% chance of resetting your Inciting Strikes/Arcane Supremacy spells CD.
* Mirror Images have 50% the Spellshield's health. When they are defeated they give the Spellshield a not-stacking Shield effect and 20 Courage.

Augmented Skills:

Mirror Images - Replaces Shake It Off
* Effect: Creates 2 Mirror Images of the Spellshield. This ability does not go on CD, however you can only have 2 Mirror Images at a time. Using this skill again switches your Spellshield with the Mirror Image to the Left.
Elemental Subjugation - augment replaces Ancestral Bolas
* Effect: The Elemental Buffs, Debuffs and Shields of Foes within the range of this spell find an equivalent Counter Element De/Buff on any Foe and undergo Elemental Backlash.
Time Fold - augmented Charge
* Effect: Charge+, resets Arcane Circle CD, move at double the normal Charge pace.
Arcane Circle - augment replaces Reflect
* Effect: As per Mage's Arcane Circle+, Knockbacks any Foes within it's radius, additionally Arcane damage done by the Spellshield while in Arcane Circle replenishes their Shield.
Gravity Well - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: Creates heavy gravitational orb at the location, drawing in all Foes within range - then whisks back to the Spellshield.
Blink - augmented Perfect Dodge
* Effect: Grants the Spellshield the Chaos effect, and creates 2 Mirror Images of the Spellshield. If the Spellshield already has 2 Mirror Images, 2 more are temporarily created for 3 seconds. These additional Mirror Images do no damage. After 3 seconds extra Mirror Images fade, giving the Spellshield time to replace their position amongst the new Images.
Nullification Veil - augment replaces Wall
* Effect: A faint purple wall. All Foes passing through the Nullification Veil lose their magic-based Buffs, and magics cast by Foes targeting those beyond the Veil are nullified. To clarify, the spell is cast (the mana is spent, the ability goes on CD), however it has no effect on passing through the Veil.
Arcane Supremacy- augments Inciting Strikes, Tomahawk, and Weapon damage using Arcane damage weapons (wands, books, etc)
Arcane damage done replenishes the Spellshield's Shield effect.
* Effect: Inciting Strikes becomes Arcane Volley: Gains up to 2 charges. Visual: unleashes a devastating volley of Arcane orbs
* Effect: Tomahawk becomes Arcane Missiles: Gains up to 3 charges. Visual: unleashes a swarm of smaller Arcane missiles.
* Effect: Your normal weapon combo attacks using weapons that deal Arcane damage do double damage.

[*] Arcane Denial - augment replaces Slam
* Effect: augmented Perfect Parry. The Spellshield brushes the incoming blow aside with their hand, regaining a spent charge of Arcane Volley or making the next Arcane Volley a guaranteed Critical Strike.

Warden (Tank Ranger)

Class Fantasy: Elusive Defender, Unyielding Predator
Gameplay Favoring: Evasion Tank - Damage - Mobility | Stealth, Methodical
What makes them a threat in PVP:
Preferred Equipment: Medium armor, two-handed weapons

Augmented Skills:

Shroud - augmented Charge
* Effect: Charge+, resets Serrated/ Inciting Strikes CD, gains the Camouflage effect and Conflict. Like the Bard Flourish, the Warden can move directionally.
Viper's Dance - augmented Perfect Dodge
* Effect: Grants your Serrated/ Inciting Strikes a second charge (up to 2) or makes the next Strikes a guaranteed Critical Hit, and grants the Warden the Conflict effect.
Serrated Strikes - augmented Inciting Strikes
* Effect: Inciting Strikes+, those hit gain the Wounded effect, and the Warden gains Thorns.
The Great Hunt - augment replaces Grapple
* Effect: Air Strikes towards the Warden's opponents shooting vined arrows before Disengaging back mid-air, pulling their Foes with them, Staggered.
The Most Dangerous Game - Replaces Indominable Spirit
* Effect: chose an Archetype, your attacks now do 50% more damage against those with that Primary Archetype, Elite mobs, and raid/dungeon Bosses.
Piercing Shot - augment replaces Tomahawk
* Effect: As per Ranger's Piercing Shot+, gains +50% against targets hit from behind.
Bear Trap - augment replaces Ancestral Bolas
* Effect: As per Ranger's Bear Trap+, but throws out 3 traps behind the current melee target
Hemorrhaging Wound - augment replaces Slam
* Effect: Jab a barbed arrow from your quiver in to your opponent, damaging them and giving them a stack of Bleeding.
Leaves in the Wind - augments Absorption Field
* Effect: Absorption Field+, all within the Field gain Camouflage.

So, there are some thoughts. Before you say "this seems way more powerful than we've seen, it's too OP", remember we've seen early level gameplay. This is meant to be more endgame play - it should seem OP in comparison. Balancing will always need to be done, of course. Also, you won't be able to Augment everything listed, you'll still be limited to an amount of Archetype augments by level. This was just a flavoring post.

Again, if you don't like the idea of Perfect Defenses, that's fine - you don't have to belabor it. Focus on the concepts themselves, or if you see more flavorful interactive ways of triggering the skills reply with those. Constructive criticism leads to better design, doomering doesn't help anyone.

The goal of this thought exercise is to make each class compelling in it's own right to those that enjoy that style of play. Every class should have something that says to someone THIS IS THE CLASS FOR ME.

Hope you enjoyed some mindless theory-crafting/ wishing on a star

RocketFarmer · September 24

Is this the thread where everyone writes a novel? Damn, that’s a lot.

Got time to shake Tank into something that doesn’t suck. That’s my level of expectation with Intrepid. Before we even get to the augments, there’s still a ton of work for them to do with this archetype. Which is why I also think it will take them 3-5 years to get beyond alpha 2. We’re going to quickly determine what works for an archetype and what’s really bad or useless. If they keep their promise to build off of player feedback, then they’ll get to it eventually.

Lodrig · September 24

Having recently done my own Tank class concepts (as a subset of a doing all 64 concepts) I'll contrasts your theorycrafting with my own.

First off I am not a fan of the perfect block, dodge, parry AS TANK SKILLS. The game already has activated directional sheild blocking as a universal system and dodge and parry would in my opinion need to be similarly universal abilities for all archetypes available right from level 1, not an end game feature of a particular archetype (though I could see some potential for parry as a feature for certain fighter classes). For Tanks augments to interact with or enchance these abilities is reasonable and fruitfull grounds for augmentation if they were to exist, but I'm very hesitant to base theorycrafting ontop of theorycrafting as it leads to theory-Jenga.

Overall I think you missed a significant oportunity to interact with a mechanism which dose exist, the Courage meter of the Tank. Adding new ways to generate, consume and providing new benifits to courage levels which evoke or blend the secondary archetype is a straitforward way to really feel the fusion of two archetypes. Also you use a lot of Cooldown and stack resets which just seem superflous to me, all be it that may just be me personally having a low opinion of such mechanics broadly as I think it leads to designer enforced ability cycle meta, Intrepid dose use them but it seems to me you ramped it up a lot.

Overall I fail to get much of a sense of playstyle or class fantasy distinctivness from the augmented skill descriptions. Had you not listed them I wouldn't have been able to derive them and in many instances I can't see how the augments fufill the fantasy or playstyle, the augments just seem like a set of 'it would be cool if..' buffs that have a flavor. I don't get the sense of a kit that is going to give an intended gameplay, or if I do it comes off as a piecemeal 'graft' of the secondary archetypes abilities rather then a fusion.

My own bias is certainly the source of this sense because in my own theorycrafting I put the class fantasy and playstyle front and center and try to state it as explicity as possible, and to make it as strong, distinct and as much of a true fusion of the two archetypes as possible and only touch very lightly on some ways that it is implemented and almost never down to individual augments. So any theorycrafting which dosn't start from the same perspective will look muddled and indecisive to me. Part of the reason I do that is to hopefully inspire Intrepid to do likewise strong distinctivness when designing classes and thus avoid the 'sameyness' problem that so many folks worry about.

I'll follow up with a class by class and more detailed blow by blow.

just_Yxon · September 24

Lodrig wrote: »

Overall I think you missed a significant oportunity to interact with a mechanism which dose exist, the Courage meter of the Tank. Adding new ways to generate, consume and providing new benifits to courage levels which evoke or blend the secondary archetype is a straitforward way to really feel the fusion of two archetypes.

That's a great point about not playing as much in to Courage. I think that would vary things up quite a bit. I'll have to revisit my thoughts on some of the classes.

Lodrig wrote: »

Also you use a lot of Cooldown and stack resets which just seem superflous to me, all be it that may just be me personally having a low opinion of such mechanics broadly as I think it leads to designer enforced ability cycle meta, Intrepid dose use them but it seems to me you ramped it up a lot.

(...)I don't get the sense of a kit that is going to give an intended gameplay, or if I do it comes off as a piecemeal 'graft' of the secondary archetypes abilities rather then a fusion.

Hmm, I guess most of these concepts can be boiled down to "do a defensive thing, then you get to do some other cool things".

The intended game play focuses around the specific type of activated defense. Each defense on it's own has their own slight differentiation: Blocking can be a channeled thing, Dodge is heavily timing dependent, and Parrying can be timing or proc dependent. You can sit on Dodge while doing other things, but waiting on timing the first strike of your weapon Combo to parry is very detrimental to your damage/ threat generation.

Lodrig wrote: »

I put the class fantasy and playstyle front and center and try to state it as explicity as possible, and to make it as strong, distinct and as much of a true fusion of the two archetypes as possible and only touch very lightly on some ways that it is implemented and almost never down to individual augments.

That's one of the most restrictive things. From my understanding, Intrepid isn't looking to additively create entirely new skills for the Classes. So focusing on the one's we have and modifying (augmenting) them in to new one's will create the individuality for the class. I did take some liberties in replacing some of the skills, but I think it could be done using current assets and some simple coding - nothing intensive.

Tanks currently have 17-19 skill on the Wiki. Adding 5-6 more to them would feel more superfluous than just augmenting the one's we have. Sure, those current 17-19 skills feel like they might have a bit of bloat and can be pared down anyway; but even paring those down and adding more is still 15-20 potential skills.

But again, I really like your idea about playing with Courage more, and can't wait to see some of your takes on what each class might look like.

nanfoodle · September 24

Some cool ideas there. We do know that with the secondary class, you will have 4 augment sets you can pick from. So 256 options =-) I am sure Ashes could use more threads like this.

Lodrig · September 24

Y_on wrote: »

Hmm, I guess most of these concepts can be boiled down to "do a defensive thing, then you get to do some other cool things".

The intended game play focuses around the specific type of activated defense. Each defense on it's own has their own slight differentiation: Blocking can be a channeled thing, Dodge is heavily timing dependent, and Parrying can be timing or proc dependent. You can sit on Dodge while doing other things, but waiting on timing the first strike of your weapon Combo to parry is very detrimental to your damage/ threat generation.

Do thing, get thing mechanics are I think an ideal target for being subsumed under Courage, that is basically what courage is, a stack of 'did your job as tank' when you take damage so you get a reward. It's also not clear if Intrepid intends for Tank to generate courage from damage which is mitigated by abilities, if not then perfect block/dodge/parry has anti-synergy with courage which could be a problem. As for the focus on different kinds of active defense, I didn't find it very compelling, probably because thouse actions lack any group interaction. It feels like the kind of tanking distinction somone would seek in PvE content, where you protect others by simply protecting yourself and are seeking to win the button-press-timing of the mob like it were Elden Ring. But it really looks like Intrepid has designed Tanks with a lot of pvp intent and a good half their kit is about how to defend your party members with reactive ability usage and positioning. So I take the perspective that how a Tank defends others is the primary defining aspect of the Tank, and how they defend themselves as secondary.

To provide a quick summary of my Tank class concepts and how they operate at a group and tactical level.

Tank/Bard Argent - Wider stronger Taunts and simple short range AoE buffs for allies
Tank/Cleric Paladin - Short range rescue heals and debuff clenses
Tank/Fighter Knight - Tarbaby tactis, oponents stick to you on contact + AoE weapon swipes for damage
Tank/Mage Spellshield - Absorb incoming magic damage and blast it back out
Tank/Ranger Warden - Mark an enemy and an allie for focused damage reduction/damage boost
Tank/Rogue Nightshield - Swift 'everywhere at once' protector get directly between enemy an ally
Tank/Summoner Keeper - Pull everyone to yourself to abduct enemy and rescue ally
Tank/Tank Guardian - Unstoppable battering Ram of initiation that leads allies forward

Y_on wrote: »

That's one of the most restrictive things. From my understanding, Intrepid isn't looking to additively create entirely new skills for the Classes. So focusing on the one's we have and modifying (augmenting) them in to new one's will create the individuality for the class. I did take some liberties in replacing some of the skills, but I think it could be done using current assets and some simple coding - nothing intensive.

Tanks currently have 17-19 skill on the Wiki. Adding 5-6 more to them would feel more superfluous than just augmenting the one's we have. Sure, those current 17-19 skills feel like they might have a bit of bloat and can be pared down anyway; but even paring those down and adding more is still 15-20 potential skills.

But again, I really like your idea about playing with Courage more, and can't wait to see some of your takes on what each class might look like.

We have been told repeated that secondary dose 'not add new abilities' so I'm confident that ~20 active ability part will remain in place. But how much thouse 20 are alteres is a big question, recent commentary by Steven used the term 'Very fundamental' changes but implied that these would be RARER, and that most augments do less. Ofcourse without an example of what very fundamental means it's hard to say, I've interprted it as alterations to abilities which change fundamental purpose of the ability, such as a heal becoming an attack, or an escape ability turning into an enemy pull. If each class gets one or two major changes like this then it can do a lot. Overall I think all your individual augments concepts fall within a feasable range, but Intrepid might only go that deep on a few augments so it's vital to make each one count.

Dygz · September 24

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Is this the thread where everyone writes a novel? Damn, that’s a lot.

Got time to shake Tank into something that doesn’t suck. That’s my level of expectation with Intrepid. Before we even get to the augments, there’s still a ton of work for them to do with this archetype. Which is why I also think it will take them 3-5 years to get beyond alpha 2. We’re going to quickly determine what works for an archetype and what’s really bad or useless. If they keep their promise to build off of player feedback, then they’ll get to it eventually.

Secondary Archetype Augments are basically watered-down versions of Primary Archetype Active Skills.
For Tank/Tank - it just doubles-down on the stuff a Tank can already do.
A Tank Active Skill with a Tank Augment will just be more Tanky.
Think of applying a weaker version of Grapple or Ancestral Bolas (an Augment from the "Snares" School) onto Protect or Wall.

The Tank Class Augmented

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