Pull off leveling and Artisanship as Immersive

Hello
I clearly rememebered and liked what Steven said in the early days that Ashes will be a nice experience while leveling up and not as most MMO's that you need to get to max level as fast as possible because then the game begins.
How will they make that true when Landhold are a very tough quest but to get there you need max level. In perspective that it is a limited amount of holds and also that highest Processing is on those landholds?
Another very interesting matter is the Artisanship with for example crafting. How can they make each item valid in the game and not "just" something you need to level up your crafting skill fast?
Usually players find out quickly which item is easiest to craft in aspect of XP gained, but it is worthless on the market in perspective of using it while fighting players/NPC or Mobs. How to solve that?
For example I clearly remembered Skyrim when you wanted to level up Blacksmithing fast fot the "juicy" stuff and you chose iron daggers but the item itself was no point fighting with.
Interesting to read what you wise ones have to say in this.

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ShroudedFox

I feel like a point that could be missed here is that, high level mats for processing or gathering at freehold will not be risk free… due to materials always being droppable transporting them to and from freeholds from the node is a risk, also for the case of gatherables we don’t know for example if seeds are single use for higher tier items.

I understand that the main point here is player access to a system required as progression for professions should not be able to be gatekeeped by other players.

But

I don’t particularly see an issue with the current design, part of the design ideas that I have seen from intrepid is exclusivity, and large achievement should require group effort, your complaining that the top 5% of processing/crafting shouldn’t be gatekeeped by other people but realistically only the top 5% of guilds will even have access to those mats from world bosses a solo player was never going to get access to those mats in the first place.

In the side of player experience earning your way into a freehold should feel like an achievement and should be achievable with effort but I still lean to the side of freeholds should be group owned. Always in node housing for casual players… which I will be

Noaani

ShroudedFox wrote: »

I don’t particularly see an issue with the current design, part of the design ideas that I have seen from intrepid is exclusivity, and large achievement should require group effort, your complaining that the top 5% of processing/crafting shouldn’t be gatekeeped by other people but realistically only the top 5% of guilds will even have access to those mats from world bosses a solo player was never going to get access to those mats in the first place.

This is just poor design - if it is indeed the intention.

Exclusivity is fine, but not for levelig. There is a reason most games keep leveling distinct from any content designed to add exclusivity to a game. There is a reason you don't need to raid to level up in WoW, for example.

Caeryl

ShroudedFox wrote: »

I don’t particularly see an issue with the current design, part of the design ideas that I have seen from intrepid is exclusivity, and large achievement should require group effort, your complaining that the top 5% of processing/crafting shouldn’t be gatekeeped by other people but realistically only the top 5% of guilds will even have access to those mats from world bosses a solo player was never going to get access to those mats in the first place.

We are talking about Skill Lines. We aren't talking about the mats.

Processing shouldn't be treated differently than quite literally every other skill line in the game.

Imagine if you couldn't hit level50 without getting some waiver from a player, or you couldn't unlock a skill from your social org without getting a waiver from a player, or you couldn't fish in a particular zone with a waiver from a player.

Skill line progression should never be reliant on getting a permission slip signed.

And again, freeholds are as safe a space as you can possibly get. There is no risk to processing in them for a guild, cuz it's going straight to their base or their castle or to the player's personal storage or to a crafter to make gear that can't drop.

It's no more risky for them than the Processor who was denied entry to use their forge to finish the leveling process for their artisan line.

Noaani

For those thinking this is about exclusivity, it really isn't.

Journeyman is as high as you can get in processing without a freehold, and that tops out at level 30 - as in, you are processing items for up to level 30 gear.

It isn't a case of needing a freehold to process rare materials or anything, you need to it produce the base tier processed materials for basic tier gear for the last 20 levels of the game.

Saying it is about exclusivity is saying you think level 50 players should be using level 30 gear as standard, and only those with access to exclusive components and such should have access to level 40 or level 50 gear.

The whole thing is stupid, and all of you know it.

Edit to add; completely out of character for me, that last comment was aimed at some specific Intrepid staff as much as posters here.

Lodrig

Noaani wrote: »

For those thinking this is about exclusivity, it really isn't.

Journeyman is as high as you can get in processing without a freehold, and that tops out at level 30 - as in, you are processing items for up to level 30 gear.

It isn't a case of needing a freehold to process rare materials or anything, you need to it produce the base tier processed materials for basic tier gear for the last 20 levels of the game.

Saying it is about exclusivity is saying you think level 50 players should be using level 30 gear as standard, and only those with access to exclusive components and such should have access to level 40 or level 50 gear.

The whole thing is stupid, and all of you know it.

Edit to add; completely out of character for me, that last comment was aimed at some specific Intrepid staff as much as posters here.

You seem to be assuming their is no trade, and that only people who can make a thing will ever be able to get and use it. This is nonsense strawman argument of the highest order. Anyone who is processing at their Freehold will be selling the resulting processed materials to the Nodes because this is where both the customers and markets are, so the Mats become available for crafters to buy and craft with who would logically put their crafted products on that same market for sale.

Every Artisan is going to be gathering/processing/crafting more then they can personally consume and the physical seperation of all three activities (Wilds, Freehold, Node) is all to discourage vertical 'solo' play by individuals or groups. The system is designed to punish the player who stays exclusivly in one location without trading with the level cap, THEY are the ones who are stuck at level 30. It sounds like you just don't want to be capped and feel you should have the ability to make max level gear as a solo hermit, well tough luck the games designed to prevent that and it is right to do so.

Lodrig

Caeryl wrote: »

We are talking about Skill Lines. We aren't talking about the mats.

Processing shouldn't be treated differently than quite literally every other skill line in the game.

Imagine if you couldn't hit level50 without getting some waiver from a player, or you couldn't unlock a skill from your social org without getting a waiver from a player, or you couldn't fish in a particular zone with a waiver from a player.

Skill line progression should never be reliant on getting a permission slip signed.

And again, freeholds are as safe a space as you can possibly get. There is no risk to processing in them for a guild, cuz it's going straight to their base or their castle or to the player's personal storage or to a crafter to make gear that can't drop.

It's no more risky for them than the Processor who was denied entry to use their forge to finish the leveling process for their artisan line.

What evidence do we have that a player can't raise their skill level higher then the station or material levels they are using? For all we know grinding a bunch of tier 3 mats at a tier 3 station can get you to skill level 4 or even 5 (all be it slowly). Maybe your achivable skill cap is what ever is highter the station or the materials, maybe it's capped at what ever is lower, maybe their is no cap at all. As far as I know for the character their is only the cumulative artisan level caping. That character cap makes it wastefull to get a skill level above the station/materials you have access too, but it donsn't make it impossible.

And what would be the point if they did? I could foresee possible mechanical advantages, like faster crafting of items below your max skill level, maybe more efficient use of materials etc. If such advantages exist then their will almost certainly be the ability to skill up above the station level.

Caeryl

Lodrig wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

We are talking about Skill Lines. We aren't talking about the mats.

Processing shouldn't be treated differently than quite literally every other skill line in the game.

Imagine if you couldn't hit level50 without getting some waiver from a player, or you couldn't unlock a skill from your social org without getting a waiver from a player, or you couldn't fish in a particular zone with a waiver from a player.

Skill line progression should never be reliant on getting a permission slip signed.

And again, freeholds are as safe a space as you can possibly get. There is no risk to processing in them for a guild, cuz it's going straight to their base or their castle or to the player's personal storage or to a crafter to make gear that can't drop.

It's no more risky for them than the Processor who was denied entry to use their forge to finish the leveling process for their artisan line.

That character cap makes it wastefull to get a skill level above the station/materials you have access too, but it donsn't make it impossible.

And what would be the point if they did? I could foresee possible mechanical advantages, like faster crafting of items below your max skill level, maybe more efficient use of materials etc. If such advantages exist then their will almost certainly be the ability to skill up above the station level.

Refer back to my same comment. There should not be any case in which progress is limited just because you can't get 'permission' from another player.

This is not competing over an area, or PvPing to reach a raid first, or engaging with the open world systems of risk. This is groups plopped down in the safest spots in the game being permitted to deny access to the highest end processing to the wider population, not through active competition, but just because they didn't tick a permission box in the UI settings.

Let high level Processing stations be a default building in high level nodes and this issue goes away, but as is, Processing is the ONLY aspect in which you're rewarded for having less risk.

Noaani

Lodrig wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

For those thinking this is about exclusivity, it really isn't.

Journeyman is as high as you can get in processing without a freehold, and that tops out at level 30 - as in, you are processing items for up to level 30 gear.

It isn't a case of needing a freehold to process rare materials or anything, you need to it produce the base tier processed materials for basic tier gear for the last 20 levels of the game.

Saying it is about exclusivity is saying you think level 50 players should be using level 30 gear as standard, and only those with access to exclusive components and such should have access to level 40 or level 50 gear.

The whole thing is stupid, and all of you know it.

Edit to add; completely out of character for me, that last comment was aimed at some specific Intrepid staff as much as posters here.

You seem to be assuming their is no trade

No I'm not - not even close.

My assumption is limited to the notion that a player that starts off leveling a profession should be able to level that profession to the point where they can perform the function their profession performs for basic tier gear for players at all levels of the game.

Are you saying that you think this shouldn't be the case?

Lodrig

Noaani wrote: »

No I'm not - not even close.

My assumption is limited to the notion that a player that starts off leveling a profession should be able to level that profession to the point where they can perform the function their profession performs for basic tier gear for players at all levels of the game.

Are you saying that you think this shouldn't be the case?

I am perfectly ok with not everyone being able to max out their chossen artisan skills, elite craftes get to be elite, they have earned it. If that involves actually interacting with other players for materials, stations etc that is GOOD. Agian you just seem to view reaching the top tier of craft skills as like reaching level 50 in adventuring when it is not. It's instead like taking down thouse open world boss fights, you need to earn it by being better then other folks, and yes that involves team work, no one takes down a world boss alone.

The only concern I might have would be economy wide issues like scarcity, the top crafted products being too expensive/rare but this looks highly unlikely in my opinion.

And lastly my own estimates are that their will be enough Freeholds to accomadate 1/3rd of the whole player base living on and accessing them, which should match up with everyone who has a GM processing skill, so their is unlikely to be any significant number of unsatisfied processors that your so worried about.

Note that I intend to be a Gatherer, as I like to move around and explore rather then stay in one spot. If I came in here and said "I should be able to max out my gathering without ever going somewhere that other players could kill me" because that woud "letting somone else gate my artisan progression" you would rightly call me a fool.

Noaani

Lodrig wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

No I'm not - not even close.

My assumption is limited to the notion that a player that starts off leveling a profession should be able to level that profession to the point where they can perform the function their profession performs for basic tier gear for players at all levels of the game.

Are you saying that you think this shouldn't be the case?

I am perfectly ok with not everyone being able to max out their chossen artisan skills, elite craftes get to be elite, they have earned it.

The second partner agree with, the first part is objectively wrong.

Being able to level to the point where you can craft basic tier gear for a level 50 player (or the components for it) is not elite crafting - that would be being able to craft best in alot gear.

If this restriction were placed on being able to process materials used for best in slot gear, it would be a great system. That would be elite crafting.

The problem is, that isn't what it is. It is a restriction on allowing people to process basic materials for the last 20 levels of the game.

Reaching the top tier of crafting absolutely is like reaching level 50 as an adventurer - the two are literally in parallel.

You say you want to be a gatherer, great. You are mistaken in your comparison here though - this isn't akin to people wanting to level up as a gatherer in areas where people can't attack then.

Rather, it would be akin to if you needed my (or someone just like me) express permission to gather any materials past level 30.

Caeryl

Lodrig wrote: »

Note that I intend to be a Gatherer, as I like to move around and explore rather then stay in one spot. If I came in here and said "I should be able to max out my gathering without ever going somewhere that other players could kill me" because that woud "letting somone else gate my artisan progression" you would rightly call me a fool.

It isn't even remotely like that, and that you compare the two shows a distinct lack of understanding.

You go out into the open world, and if players are already harvesting what you want to harvest, you have the opportunity to fight them and take that spot for yourself. With Processing, you do not have that option of competition to finishing leveling an artisan line.

The closest comparable you could possibly get to frame it in terms of Gathering is if there were some item that could be placed down and then it bars anyone from harvesting a particular plant unless the person who placed it signs a permission slip to allow you to. You obviously wouldn't want that to be the case where you literally could not ever touch that plant right in front of you because the other player said 'no' with no risk on their part. They don't have to fight you over it, they just have to not say 'yes' to you.

Lodrig

No matter how much you two cry your not going to convince me with your pathetic arguments and strawmans. Getting a FreeHold is explicitly a contest with other players no different from controling a gathering spot, your refusal to accept that fact dosn't change reality. You each keep pathetically harping on the fact that Freeholds can be shared as if they were just being given out to some aristocracy with zero turnover or oportunity for competition, they are not, the process is competetive and their is turnover but you two have aparently decided that your too much of a looser to ever set foot on a Freehold. Just like the gathering I could defeat the people guarding the gatherables, OR I could get their permission to gather SEE EXACTLY THE SAME. Your entitled whining have been an utter waste of everyones time, go play Palia or Albion online to get your safe little instanced farm plots and stop wasting time in these forums for a game you clearly do not understand or want to play.

Caracarn

How to make items in various level valid for actual gaming not "just" for fast XP in crafting? It is important for the economy and also makes it more interesting that for example each 5 levels it is cruical to update your gear but you cant do it over 5 mins but it takes time. Thoughts?

Caeryl

Lodrig wrote: »

No matter how much you two cry your not going to convince me with your pathetic arguments and strawmans. Getting a FreeHold is explicitly a contest with other players no different from controling a gathering spot, your refusal to accept that fact dosn't change reality. You each keep pathetically harping on the fact that Freeholds can be shared as if they were just being given out to some aristocracy with zero turnover or oportunity for competition, they are not, the process is competetive and their is turnover but you two have aparently decided that your too much of a looser to ever set foot on a Freehold. Just like the gathering I could defeat the people guarding the gatherables, OR I could get their permission to gather SEE EXACTLY THE SAME. Your entitled whining have been an utter waste of everyones time, go play Palia or Albion online to get your safe little instanced farm plots and stop wasting time in these forums for a game you clearly do not understand or want to play.

How is it 'exactly the same' when you quite literally do not have an option to fight them for access? Are you really trying to compare group v group fighting in the open world to the resource investment of a full siege? And then on top of that the resource and gold investment still needed to win out in the bidding for a Freehold after the dust settles around a lvl0 node?

You can cry 'strawman' all day long, but your yelling and juvenile insults doesn't make the denials any more compelling.

The issue is, very, very simple: Players should never be denied progress based on someone ticking a box in the UI.

Players can't turn off people's ability to attack them to gain resources off them.

Players can't turn off dungeon doors to keep other groups from entering them to fight for it.

Players can't turn off their caravan's PvP area to keep people from attacking it.

Players can't turn off others' ability to harvest in an area.

But for Processing only, players can just turn off your ability to compete for use of a forge. Players can get the highest value items without contesting. Players can deny your ability progress using nothing but the game UI, rather than their groups coordination, their individual skill, or through taking risk.

Noaani

Lodrig wrote: »

No matter how much you two cry your not going to convince me with your pathetic arguments and strawmans. Getting a FreeHold is explicitly a contest with other players no different from controling a gathering spot

That isn't the argument though.

You say we are using strawman arguments, but you are the one arguing points we are not making.

Sure, someone can prevent you from farming an area, but there are other areas where you can progress, or you can just come back later on when thst person has moved on.

If you don't have that freehold though, you are locked out. There are no other areas, and you can't just come back later.

It is very much you arguing against points we are not making - which is what a strawman argument is.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

For those thinking this is about exclusivity, it really isn't.

Journeyman is as high as you can get in processing without a freehold, and that tops out at level 30 - as in, you are processing items for up to level 30 gear.

It isn't a case of needing a freehold to process rare materials or anything, you need to it produce the base tier processed materials for basic tier gear for the last 20 levels of the game.

Saying it is about exclusivity is saying you think level 50 players should be using level 30 gear as standard, and only those with access to exclusive components and such should have access to level 40 or level 50 gear.

The whole thing is stupid, and all of you know it.

Edit to add; completely out of character for me, that last comment was aimed at some specific Intrepid staff as much as posters here.

ok its 4 am, so I'm not sure if I got what you meant but...we saw that you can craft items with lower level mats, so you could craft level 50 items with level 30 mats then upgrade later using level 50 items. it wont be the same as crafting it with level 50 items, but it will definitely be stronger than a level 30 item. maybe 80% of a full t5 item.
the same happens for a level 30 item crafted with t5 mats. it will b stronger than a level 30 items crafted with level 30 items but not as strong as a level 50 item

Depraved

Caeryl wrote: »

Lodrig wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

We are talking about Skill Lines. We aren't talking about the mats.

Processing shouldn't be treated differently than quite literally every other skill line in the game.

Imagine if you couldn't hit level50 without getting some waiver from a player, or you couldn't unlock a skill from your social org without getting a waiver from a player, or you couldn't fish in a particular zone with a waiver from a player.

Skill line progression should never be reliant on getting a permission slip signed.

And again, freeholds are as safe a space as you can possibly get. There is no risk to processing in them for a guild, cuz it's going straight to their base or their castle or to the player's personal storage or to a crafter to make gear that can't drop.

It's no more risky for them than the Processor who was denied entry to use their forge to finish the leveling process for their artisan line.

That character cap makes it wastefull to get a skill level above the station/materials you have access too, but it donsn't make it impossible.

And what would be the point if they did? I could foresee possible mechanical advantages, like faster crafting of items below your max skill level, maybe more efficient use of materials etc. If such advantages exist then their will almost certainly be the ability to skill up above the station level.

Refer back to my same comment. There should not be any case in which progress is limited just because you can't get 'permission' from another player.

see it always goes back to that. that's the root of the argument and you can apply that to everything. its also silly to try to remove that on a game with open world PVP and scarcity.

if I'm farming an open world dungeon and you need to farm it, I'm there, I'm going to kill you and take the mobs. if you wanna farm you need to ask for permission (or use force). its the same thing.

caravan runs? same thing. castle siege, same thing. freeholds? ask for permission or use force and take the node and the fh. this is ashes.

what a player thinks should or shouldn't happen might or might not be a good fit for a specific game. just because something is one way in one game, doesn't mean it must or should be like that in a different game.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Lodrig wrote: »

No matter how much you two cry your not going to convince me with your pathetic arguments and strawmans. Getting a FreeHold is explicitly a contest with other players no different from controling a gathering spot

That isn't the argument though.

You say we are using strawman arguments, but you are the one arguing points we are not making.

Sure, someone can prevent you from farming an area, but there are other areas where you can progress, or you can just come back later on when thst person has moved on.

If you don't have that freehold though, you are locked out. There are no other areas, and you can't just come back later.

It is very much you arguing against points we are not making - which is what a strawman argument is.

now you are changing the argument. you are talking about time now. ok lets do it. what if my guild camps a rare herb for a month and your guild cant beat us in pvp? you can always come back after a month and get the herb, sure, but I can say the same thing about freehold. you can always come back later and siege the node then take the fh then process, the difference is the time of the day and scale of the battle.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

For those thinking this is about exclusivity, it really isn't.

Journeyman is as high as you can get in processing without a freehold, and that tops out at level 30 - as in, you are processing items for up to level 30 gear.

It isn't a case of needing a freehold to process rare materials or anything, you need to it produce the base tier processed materials for basic tier gear for the last 20 levels of the game.

Saying it is about exclusivity is saying you think level 50 players should be using level 30 gear as standard, and only those with access to exclusive components and such should have access to level 40 or level 50 gear.

The whole thing is stupid, and all of you know it.

Edit to add; completely out of character for me, that last comment was aimed at some specific Intrepid staff as much as posters here.

ok its 4 am, so I'm not sure if I got what you meant but...we saw that you can craft items with lower level mats, so you could craft level 50 items with level 30 mats then upgrade later using level 50 items. it wont be the same as crafting it with level 50 items, but it will definitely be stronger than a level 30 item. maybe 80% of a full t5 item.
the same happens for a level 30 item crafted with t5 mats. it will b stronger than a level 30 items crafted with level 30 items but not as strong as a level 50 item

Yeah, but that still isn't acceptable.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

For those thinking this is about exclusivity, it really isn't.

Journeyman is as high as you can get in processing without a freehold, and that tops out at level 30 - as in, you are processing items for up to level 30 gear.

It isn't a case of needing a freehold to process rare materials or anything, you need to it produce the base tier processed materials for basic tier gear for the last 20 levels of the game.

Saying it is about exclusivity is saying you think level 50 players should be using level 30 gear as standard, and only those with access to exclusive components and such should have access to level 40 or level 50 gear.

The whole thing is stupid, and all of you know it.

Edit to add; completely out of character for me, that last comment was aimed at some specific Intrepid staff as much as posters here.

ok its 4 am, so I'm not sure if I got what you meant but...we saw that you can craft items with lower level mats, so you could craft level 50 items with level 30 mats then upgrade later using level 50 items. it wont be the same as crafting it with level 50 items, but it will definitely be stronger than a level 30 item. maybe 80% of a full t5 item.
the same happens for a level 30 item crafted with t5 mats. it will b stronger than a level 30 items crafted with level 30 items but not as strong as a level 50 item

Yeah, but that still isn't acceptable.

why not? this isn't an instance based game where everybody wins. you gotta fight for your stuff. the game is designed with friction and scarcity in mind. its not a bad design, it might not be your cup of tea though.

this is aimed at players who like fighting for their stuff. eventually, people will have their t5 weapons, it might just take a while for some. you could just farm something else and buy the t5 mats then craft.

if I cant make a red herb, ill just make blue herbs, sell them and buy the red herbs. its just pixels on the screen.

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