T&L rights and wrongs that Ashes should be aware of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoiCwjut2sc
More or less I think Peon has summarized the good and the bad of T&L however I encourage everyone who is playing or has some ideas to say what Ashes could use from T&L and what they should totally ignore to keep improving.

Points apart

Good

1.- I love the vertical exploration, the fact that you can climb areas to complete challenges or search for treasures and above all the option to “glide” to visualize the beautiful panorama.

2.- The graphics and environments.

Bad

1.- The same as always in modern MMORPGS, there is no risk/reward, everything seems that it should be “easy and fast”. Leveling up the character becomes very easy, boring and even absurd for its simplicity and it seems that although there is PvP, PvE is everything.

2.- Very little or almost no sociability for the characters to progress, I mean this is a MMORPG, outside of guilds and sieges or cooperative missions there are no incentives for sociability and I hope that does not get worse because I understand that T & L was going to focus more on PvE later, I hope for the sake of MMORPGS that their PvE is one where player x player interaction has more weight to generate sociability and not a singler player PvE.

3.- I still don't understand the combat, they wanted to make a TAB but add ACTION to give more “mobility” to their characters but thanks to that they took away the fluidity of the two combats, why?.
Wasn't it better to have one of them, improve it to be smoothly fluid and then add the ACTION, why have both of them in that state if they are not fluid ?, I mean, the WOW combat feels more fluid than the ACTION combat from T&L ......

I think they sinned of trying to please everyone.

4.- The obvious P2W that although it is not so notorious “yet” all those who know how it is in Korea will understand what is to come.

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Comments

Pendragxn

I’m not a fan of the combat system having two sets of weapon skills. It’s clear there aren’t any true class-specific skills—just archetypes. While I don’t mind the action targeting mode, it would have been better if they had focused on one system or the other, rather than trying to merge both.

The skills page is bloody awful—there’s no real skill tree or anything to clearly explain how to allocate skill points, weapon skill points, or passive points. It leaves players confused about progression and makes character development feel disconnected.

The story was dull and didn’t capture my attention at all—I ended up skipping most of it. The world itself felt generic, with mobs scattered around in a way that seemed like a copy-paste job, more like they were dropped into a random field than existing in a natural habitat like a camp or lair.

The game systems are overly complex, with far too many UI elements and currencies. The stat system is poorly designed as well; having both strength and perception increase min-max damage doesn’t make much sense, and the stat points feel under-allocated. Overall, it’s kind of a mess. Sadly, I wanted the game to be better, but even the PvP feels boring and lacks the dynamic quality needed to make it engaging. It just feels like a chaotic mix with no real depth or enjoyment.

unknown

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CROW3

I'm enjoying it for what it is, but I think Ashes will run circles around it. It has all of the normal attributes of a large Korean MMO (e.g. shallow progression, absurd number of currencies, and p2w, etc.). It is pretty well optimized and the world is beautiful to run around in.

It's like eating okay oatmeal in a different hotel room.

Caeryl

The bad design seems like it was purposeful to push the P2W

Anything built ground-up to get people to shell out money like that is doomed to suck

Azherae

All I really have to say is that the above posters have very valid but subjective points.

And for me, their complaints are positives.

I believe this bodes well for Ashes, as it implies that TL will not take much audience away from Ashes. The only thing I would have any 'issue' with is the number of times people say things like 'Aside from all the stuff that makes you social, there's no socialization', or 'aside from all the things to do on the way to max level, there's nothing to do in the game'.

I always feel suspicious that some of that is tribalism/biases, but obviously as a TL fan myself, I can't be sure that I'm not the biased one.

That said, the video is mostly sensible, so, though I doubt anyone here 'cares'. For people who get this sort of thing filtered through me:

Everything Peon dislikes is the stuff people like us generally like and expect, or optimization, and therefore either doesn't apply to Ashes at all (but isn't a positive to us that Ashes lacks it), or is aesthetic.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

All I really have to say is that the above posters have very valid but subjective points.

And for me, their complaints are positives.

I believe this bodes well for Ashes, as it implies that TL will not take much audience away from Ashes. The only thing I would have any 'issue' with is the number of times people say things like 'Aside from all the stuff that makes you social, there's no socialization', or 'aside from all the things to do on the way to max level, there's nothing to do in the game'.

I always feel suspicious that some of that is tribalism/biases, but obviously as a TL fan myself, I can't be sure that I'm not the biased one.

That said, the video is mostly sensible, so, though I doubt anyone here 'cares'. For people who get this sort of thing filtered through me:

Everything Peon dislikes is the stuff people like us generally like and expect, or optimization, and therefore either doesn't apply to Ashes at all (but isn't a positive to us that Ashes lacks it), or is aesthetic.

What server are you on?

iccer

So after playing open-beta for 30 minutes, I thought the game was hot garbage due to 1000 menus, and bad combat system.

Yet, I've installed it and been playing it since launch. I'm already max level, and doing "max level stuff".

- I think the combat is not too bad, and it looks great visually and sounds good. I've played worse, and I've played better. Sure, it's still too clunky for my liking, but I hope it improves more.

The problem I have with it, is the lack of variety. Yes, you can combine 2 different weapons, and then slot any 12 abilities from those 2 weapons, but the choice really becomes limited once you know what you are doing.
You won't really deviate much from the "meta" builds, because those builds make sense, and even if you try to make your own build, you'll basically come up with a pretty much identical build to a "meta" build you can find online.
In my opinion, that's because there's not much choice really, so those few abilities that stick out, will be in every build you choose. There just are some abilities that combo well with each other, and that are overall just strong, so that's what players will take. And you being limited to 12 abilities only, makes those abilities even more important to pick.

I feel the skill expression system, or whatever its name is an improvement to what was there previously (nothing). It at least allows some customizability, even though again, depending what your build is for, you'll pick the same things as everyone else.

I especially like choosing upgrades that transform your abilities, visually (even the icon changes sometimes!), sound wise, and in terms of mechanics. And I'm hoping that Ashes' augment system will work in a similar way, in terms of how they transform abilities.

In terms of gameplay overall, I'm not yet sure what I think of the game.
I've yet to experience mass PvP around objectives, etc. and I'm not sure if I will before I quit the game.

That's why it's important that the game is enjoyable to play day-to-day, that has enough stuff for you to do that's fun and engaging, and then on top of that you have mass PvP around bosses, guild wars, etc.

I feel like p2w is there for sure, but nothing crazy. You pay to skip progress, which actually makes no sense to me. Why would you even play that game at that point. For me it's more about the journey, and not just the destination itself.
Obviously when it impacts regular players, then it's a problem, because you'll just get destroyed by someone who just buys all their gear.
But at least there's not a system besides gear that heavily impacts your power, that's not easily accessible to regular non-p2w players, at least to my knowledge.

Overall, it's a decent game, at this point is nothing special, but it has some potential to improve, for sure.

Ace1234

How is the combat at max level for those who experienced it?

iccer

Ace1234 wrote: »

How is the combat at max level for those who experienced it?

Pretty much similar, although it depends on your class/weapon choice. Obviously when you have more choice, you have better chance of finding something you like, which in turn makes combat more enjoyable.

I still want to reiterate that I found it difficult to make a build I enjoy playing, I feel like there are not enough ability choices, and I often found myself liking only 2-3 abilities from each weapon, meaning if I make a combination of two, I only really have 6/12 abilities I enjoy using.
That's why I disliked GW2s class system, and why I'm not a fan of this one either (though it's better a bit imo)

I ended up going with Staff + Sword & Shield at the end, after leveling with Greatsword + Sword & Shield to 50.
Rerolling is a pain in the ass btw.

It's not meta at all, but I enjoy playing it.

I do see potential though, so if they want to expand on it, add more abilities and add more weapons, then great.

Also, my fear that I had with Ashes, actually came true in T&L.

Zergs.

Some content is basically made for zergs, like field bosses, where you either have one zerg + alliances just controlling everything, or you just have 2 zergs going at it. It just means regular players, in regular guilds have no place there.
It's a similar thing with open-world dungeons, where during night, they're pretty much controlled by them (at the moment, because the lvl50 dungeon just got unlocked, and it's the only 1 atm).

Though most of these issues are not really issues. We still have peace world bosses, and open-world dungeons during day don't have PvP inside.

I feel like with Ashes, there isn't going to be that sort of option, where it's PvP, sometimes. It's going to be PvP all the time, and zergs will obviously have a large advantage, by being able to access content that regular players won't (because of those zergs).

Also you use currency that you purchase with real money, in order to buy things on the auction house. You can obtain that currency by selling some stuff in game, however, you would need to get extremely lucky with drops, or somehow get a drop from world boss (and still be lucky that it's a good one), in order to make any meaningful amount of currency (that you will absolutely need, in order to just get gear and upgrade it).

Basically most regular players are locked out from gear progression, but if you want to do it, you can just swipe your credit card. If you are in a zerg guild, you might have a better chance to get some of that loot, however, I'm sure it would depend on the guild itself, when and if they'd give you that world boss item (as it goes into the guild bank whenever it drops for you).

TheDarkSorcerer

I was part of the closed/open beta and have been playing about 40h so far since early release. I am having a great time. Overall visual graphics are stunning, spell effects are top tier.

However there are a lot of improvements that should be made. The movement could be a lot better as it affects combat. The whole morphing aspect of the game feels unnecessary, what is the reasoning for the morphing? Bird morphs are the worst and resets your camera distance settings constantly. I would be fine with morphs if morphs had a character creator so everyone's morphs look different.

Overall voice acting bother's me, like the typical korean 8 year old girl voice but in English. The Amitoi companion was also unnecessary, makes the game look/feel childish. Even to the point the developers added a setting where you can turn off all Amitoi's (I did this and it improved my view of the game).

Veeshan

I will say one thing Throne and liberty absolutely nailed the dungeons/mechanics for the bosses imo.

Mechanics matter and not doing them will result in a swift death all 6 dungeons have very different mechanics to do some harder than other, they also dont feel RNG based (with the exception of movement bugging and rubberbanding u back into a wall occasionaly but thats not the mechanics issues thats something else entirely).

i usualy hate doing dungeon runs and these ones are a breath of fresh air tbh my 2 favorites are Cursed wastelands and Tyrants island.

The PvP is bad imo no meaningful pvp whats so ever pretty much so it falls short there by a long shot and considering im pretty sure it advertised itself as a more pvp MMO it seems to do a shocking job at it :P

Veeshan

iccer wrote: »

Ace1234 wrote: »

How is the combat at max level for those who experienced it?

Zergs.

Some content is basically made for zergs, like field bosses, where you either have one zerg + alliances just controlling everything, or you just have 2 zergs going at it. It just means regular players, in regular guilds have no place there.
It's a similar thing with open-world dungeons, where during night, they're pretty much controlled by them (at the moment, because the lvl50 dungeon just got unlocked, and it's the only 1 atm).

Though most of these issues are not really issues. We still have peace world bosses, and open-world dungeons during day don't have PvP inside.

I feel like with Ashes, there isn't going to be that sort of option, where it's PvP, sometimes. It's going to be PvP all the time, and zergs will obviously have a large advantage, by being able to access content that regular players won't (because of those zergs).

One thing with field bosses the bosses only ever drop 1 purple and 4-5 blues or something so when 200 people run into a portal to kill it good luck being the lucky one to get that single drop that is like a 1 in 4 chance or something like that of being the piece you even want :P

PvP also feel boring and stale since there no purpose for it best you can do is maybe lock people outside the open world pvp dungeon for like 20 minutes before day time come around and it gets packed again.

Veeshan

I also realy like the mechanic on some of the mobs that blacks out HP bards so there hidden for everyone for a time period when u get hit by that skill (would make for a good rogue skill/debuff tbh)

Myosotys

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

The whole morphing aspect of the game feels unnecessary, what is the reasoning for the morphing? Bird morphs are the worst and resets your camera distance settings constantly. I would be fine with morphs if morphs had a character creator so everyone's morphs look different.

I'd tell that morphing is one of the only thing I liked in T&L. Maybe it has some few bugs but the fact of being able to reach some hidden areas with flying is very fun.

My +
+ Graphics stunning
+ Good feeling of freedom
+ Good possibilities of interaction with environement (Flying, swimming, climbing)
+ Good disparity of environements and mobs
+ The world is big
+ I like the big whale flying
+ It's not a pure pay to win as announced by many. You can play without spending a $.

My -
- Too easy and too care bears (Too many fast travel points, too fast leveling, mobs easy to kill, no frustration, everything is easy so you get bored etc...).
- Combats are confusing and it's more effective to use randomly combo/skills in a fast way than playing smartly
- Gathering is not as good as in New World. I prefered mining/chopping in NW, the effects are much better
- The interactions with the relief could be much better. Sometime it's obvious that you could climb or jump somewhere but NO, the game doesn't want you to go there.
- Still several anoying bugs
- Too many menus
- Progression is confusing
- The lock target is annoying when you play bow
- No classes
- Only 4 stats points that give similars effects
- I didn't like much the crafting system, too basic and already seen millions of times
- To Korean for me in general

CROW3

Myosotys wrote: »

+ I like the big whale flying

This & the morphing into a river otter are THE most critical features according to my daughters.

Pendragxn

CROW3 wrote: »

Myosotys wrote: »

+ I like the big whale flying

This & the morphing into a river otter are THE most critical features according to my daughters.

She has a good eye I do have to say the whale is cool!

CROW3

One QoL feature that T&L implemented okay (wow has done this as well), is a 'spec profile.' I'm leveling three weapon sets for my character (SnS, GS, LB) - translating to three combos for me to essentially manage progression for (SnS/LB "Warden", SnS/GS "Weaponmaster", LB/GS "Ranger"). Each of these has a spec profile for my active/passive skill load out and my ability/equipment. It's fairly easy to manage (though I want it to be a single button for swap instead of two).

This is going to be something that I want Ashes to really nail for whatever gear, spec, skill swaps or available. The more versatility and the simpler it is to manage the better the game will feel at the most tangible level.

MybroViajero

CROW3 wrote: »

I'm enjoying it for what it is, but I think Ashes will run circles around it. It has all of the normal attributes of a large Korean MMO (e.g. shallow progression, absurd number of currencies, and p2w, etc.). It is pretty well optimized and the world is beautiful to run around in.

It's like eating okay oatmeal in a different hotel room.

I find your way of saying it very accurate.
I think the same, it's entertaining but not something I would dedicate myself to as my main MMORPG.
It has things that I would like to see in Ashes in the very distant future after launch and Ashes has its foundations well laid , like that beautiful whale and the vertical exploration content which I think is great , I love too much to get on that whale and see all the beautiful scenery.

https://youtu.be/8yvKdemt_JM?si=OWthjfQ2b3WGmhCM&t=16

George_Black

First it was NW. Now it's TL. A new mmo comes out and people start drawing parallels.
Both bad games with no relating points to AoC.
Stop being consumers ppl. You cant be that bored that you will throw money at every game, show, move that comes along.
You only encourage this trend of bad productions.

Myosotys

George_Black wrote: »

First it was NW. Now it's TL. A new mmo comes out and people start drawing parallels.
Both bad games with no relating points to AoC.
Stop being consumers ppl. You cant be that bored that you will throw money at every game, show, move that comes along.
You only encourage this trend of bad productions.

The bitter old man's point of view

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