Leveling Speed

Wiki says the following:

On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.

This is equal to ~225 hours to reach level 50. What is your opinion about it? Would you like it to be faster or slower?

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RocketFarmer

nanfoodle wrote: »

My guess if they are doing it right. They are story boarding what they want to create. Looking into main stories they want to go after launch. Deciding what maps this will happen on. A year from now they should be play testing some of the content. 6 months after launch the expansion should be ready for play testing at a beta level. If IS is smart.

Given my estimate of 3-5 years in Alpha 2 there should be plenty of time to story board a decade of story/event content.

Myosotys

Intrepid should really tip the balance in favor of slower leveling. For the simple reason that if leveling is too fast, it will be politically very complicated to slow it down. I can already imagine all the controversy and bad publicity this will create.

And for years to come, the first players (who enjoyed faster leveling) will be and stay those who haven't deserved their character and will suffer the criticism of other players.

If, on the other hand, leveling is too slow, almost no one will mind speeding it up.

Dygz

Blood_Raven wrote: »

Slower is almost always better. I hate games where you get a cool new weapon and in less then a day you out level it and don't get to enjoy the item. Same with content I hate out leveling area's I did not get to experience on the way to max level.

That does not really seem to be a likely scenario for an estimated 45 days to Level 50 if you play 4 hours per day. Because relatively few people will be playing as much as 4 hours per day. You would have to be trying to race through the content for that.

Again... I think very few if any people in this thread are fans of fast Leveling. But, 225 hours to max Adventurer Level is not fast for an MMORPG.

Also, Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game. We don't really out-Level areas. A region's Level rises and falls as Towns/Cities/Metros are constructed and destroyed.

Dygz

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Does everyone agree that fun should trump leveling speed? I think I would be fine with whatever speed they come up with as long as the leveling and “end game” is fun.

Or maybe they need to design a short game and long game into this. Short game to satisfy those who want and need immediate gratification and long game for those who really savor the journey.

I don't recall seeing anyone here ask for a short Leveling speed.
I think almost everyone here savors the journey - up to around 250 hours of focused gameplay to reach Adventurer Level 50. And then Flanker wants that to be significantly longer than 250 hours.

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

Additionally, it is always possible to increase leveling speed with little to no backfire, properly utilizating Rested HP systems, food buffs etc. In case of necessity, obviously. However, there is no way you can possibly make it slower without a massive outrage.

P.S. I've read literally the same comment on reddit today. Gonna let the post age a bit as it has been posted recently and send it here as well.

The current Ashes design already allows players to make the journey to Level 50 Adventurer last much longer than 225 hours - if that's what they want to do.

nanfoodle

Flanker wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

My guess if they are doing it right. They are story boarding what they want to create. Looking into main stories they want to go after launch. Deciding what maps this will happen on. A year from now they should be play testing some of the content. 6 months after launch the expansion should be ready for play testing at a beta level. If IS is smart.

Well, time will tell.

My concern is that when studio adds an expansion/update/patch every X months, it should contain enough content/new stuff that will retain players for those X months till the next one. Unfortunately, it's sometimes not the case and it leads to a loss of a certain percentage of player base. Some of them will return after the next expansion/update/patch gets released, but some won't. As a result, the number of players will slowly reduce over time and that may be a reason to worry when it comes to a game with a subscription-based monetization model. Player retention (as well as new player acquisition) should be amongst the top priorities.

My estimation is that Naval Combat will be the first expansion. I don't think they're going to make it into lunch just my two cents

Dygz

Yep. Studios might fail at implementing their design. That doesn't mean that you should change the design during early Alpha based on an assumption by some players that the design might fail - before the dev vision has even been tested.
The Everquest devs, many of who are working on Ashes, have always been the ones who dropped new Expansions the fastest. Also, in the past 2-3 years studios have become much better at delivering Seasonal content updates every 3-4 months rather than just every 12-18 months.

Number of players for Ashes is going to be significantly reduced in any case because it did not release Before 2020 - and there are no other games that have solved the Endgame problem already via their Seasonal updates - including WoW. And there are several other MMORPGs in production that will likely release before Ashes.
Where, in 2017, I thought that Ashes was either going to be the savior of MMORPGs by putting an end to Endgame or I would just stop playing MMORPGs... I now have 5 games I'm trying to play that have put an end to Endgame, including WoW, and I can barely keep up with the Seasonal updates.

225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer is already long for an MMORPG.
Sure, gamers who get a huge dopamine rush from finally completing a long, arduous journey would love to have it take 450 or 1K hours of focused gameplay to Level 50.
But, most players would abandon Ashes and go find a game where it takes closer to 100 hours or even 250 hours.
There's a reason that Steven, who has played Lineage 2 (and a ton of other MMORPGs) and the Intrepid devs (from Everquest and other MMORPGs) are aiming for 225 hours of focused gameplay to reach Level 50 Adventurer, but also including numerous other progression paths for those who want to extend the progression journey past 225 hours.
Inidividual gamers who have very limited experience with MMORPGs might not understand that reason - especially when they have impenetratble confirmation bias. Despite the personal manifestos they may have written to support their biased (paranoid/pessimistic) perspective.

225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer is not fast Leveling for an MMORPG.

Aszkalon

Flanker wrote: »

Haha let's not start that again on the forum. If the time comes, we'd rather make a Round 2 cuz even talking for 2,5 hours on stream was still much more efficient from time management perspective compared to talking on the forum

The Power of the Forum compells You to discuss, Flanker.

Kidding. But i don't necessarily dislike the Discussions on the Forum. Soon, we will have way more to Discuss when we finally get to testing and can exchange our Impressions.

Flanker

Aszkalon wrote: »

But i don't necessarily dislike the Discussions on the Forum.

Neither do I, but they are significantly less meaningful and/or efficient than the actual face-to-face discussions.

People may say whatever they want about Dygz, but he agreed to have that (technically) 1v1 discussion/debate and that fact alone is worth respect.

Roisindvbh

As someone who played WoW at launch, I would say the slower the better. There is just never going to be another launch experience once the first one is done. New content will be significantly smaller going forward and even people joining down the road will have guides on how to level as quickly as possible. That first "going in blind" experience is a one time thing to be savored.

Flanker

Roisindvbh wrote: »

As someone who played WoW at launch, I would say the slower the better. There is just never going to be another launch experience once the first one is done. New content will be significantly smaller going forward and even people joining down the road will have guides on how to level as quickly as possible. That first "going in blind" experience is a one time thing to be savored.

Good point. I never used it as I thought it was kind of "too subjective", but yeah, I'm glad you brought this up, because it is actually true.

Azherae

Flanker wrote: »

Roisindvbh wrote: »

As someone who played WoW at launch, I would say the slower the better. There is just never going to be another launch experience once the first one is done. New content will be significantly smaller going forward and even people joining down the road will have guides on how to level as quickly as possible. That first "going in blind" experience is a one time thing to be savored.

Good point. I never used it as I thought it was kind of "too subjective", but yeah, I'm glad you brought this up, because it is actually true.

Opposite of true for me.

I would always want the first time experience to be very similar to later experiences in terms of the mechanical aspects of leveling such as time taken, gear available (sorta) and ability to impact economy.

I believe that the experience of starting a new MMO, beyond the first few days when everyone is trying to play it, should be close to what the gameplay is the rest of the time.

Of course, the longer you make leveling, the less true the above is, because the 'going in blind' and so on only applies to a few people. People who write guides or make content do so very quickly. Then people who like following guides follow them regardless of optimization/quality. People who like going in blind ignore them even years later.

No impact, to me.

Flanker

Azherae wrote: »

Opposite of true for me.

"... it is actually true for some players" - right, that's how I should have phrased it.

But yeah, as I said, it is pretty subjective and your comment confirms it, as we have different preferences when it comes to this.

SmileGurney

I tend to find levelling in a lot of modern MMOs too quick, especially if you invest some time into gathering/crafting professions, or PvP, then you start out levelling the PvE content / story content. Some people don't mind that, others don't do non-PvE activities at all, so its a tricky thing to balance.

I have played various types of MMOs, and I lean towards slower levelling, but also don't like massive power gaps between levels, whatever in PvE or PvP. In PvE level power gap makes the world smaller and smaller as you level, as the vast majority of the game world content becomes irrelevant for the player. For me it always felt like wasted game dev time for game content which becomes useless as soon as you leave a certain level bracket.

In PvP its a matter having a good fight. Whatever games you play, skill and power gap between player teams can lead to fairly boring experience for both the winning and losing side, if the fight is really one-sided.

Flanker

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

For me it always felt like wasted game dev time for game content which becomes useless as soon as you leave a certain level bracket.

Correct. Among other arguments, I mentioned this one as well in this thread (just with a bit different phrasing): https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60737/ashes-of-creation-must-dodge-this-bullet/p1

Additionally, it doesn't only apply to the content. It also affects the low and mid-level economy segments.

Pendragxn

Again the leveling speed is fine people actually want to be able to make and play alt characters especially with the range of available classes. Increasing the leveling time would make trying out different classes and getting them to max level a ball ache.

Flanker

Pendragxn wrote: »

Again the leveling speed is fine people actually want to be able to make and play alt characters especially with the range of available classes. Increasing the leveling time would make trying out different classes and getting them to max level a ball ache.

> You have 8 secondary archetypes that you can change if you want to without a necessity to make an alt.

> if you want to try different archetypes - you have years of Alpha 2 and Beta phases ahead.

> If you want to change your primary archetype and make an alt - by all means, go for it. It shouldn't be easy though. While "easy alts" are not a problem for many MMOs, they are a problem for a game like Ashes.

> Prior to sharing your opinion, you need to think about what you're about to say from all possible perspectives instead of saying "uhhh well some people want it"

Dygz

Secondary Archetype does not change a character's gender or Race - nor does it allow you to explore the Active Skills of a diffwerent Primary Archetype. Plenty of reasons to have alts - before or after reaching Level 50 Adventurer.
Ashes is an RPG; not a just a PvP game.

I think most of the people in this thread are fine with "slow" Leveling - where 225 hours to Level 50 Adventurer is slow in comparison to the vast majority of MMORPGs.

If you want to prolong your journey to Level 50 Adventurer past 225 hours by pursuing the other progression paths, you can do that.

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

Prior to sharing your opinion, you need to think about what you're about to say from all possible perspectives instead of saying "uhhh well some people want it".

Exactly, Mr. Pot.

Zehlan

Flanker wrote: »

> Prior to sharing your opinion, you need to think about what you're about to say from all possible perspectives instead of saying "uhhh well some people want it"[/b]

Can this guy get any more obnoxious lol the answer is yes but anyway.

K Let's have some fun today. Flanker know all these games you have had all this experience in that is the basis for all your claims. Nothing before 18 or from pirate servers in other words servers that weren't the original companies who created the game. I do remember you saying that you had played a subscription based MMO I am curious to know that one.

Also couple more polls for your Statistical Analysis. These ones are from three years ago leaning the same way as the last poll I posted did! Which shows the consensus that over the last few years opinions haven't changed and on top of that the comments also support that.

Steven has already confirmed on stream that the average time to reach the maximum level will be 45 days playing 4-6 hours a day, do you think this time is adequate? if a player plays 12 hours/day can reach mas level in 2 weeks

My opinion is that this is a very short time, I have serious concerns about character development, the feeling of reward for leveling up, the feeling of progression, and whether or not it will be healthy for the overall game environment.

As a former lineage player i have the memory of low level groups formed to grind in Cruma Tower , low grade pvps, small fights almost all the time, my fear is the game is too easy and the leveling becomes obsolete, and the end of the monotonous game and very dependent on the events (siege and caravans).

Sorry about my poor grammar, i'm from Brasil.
Closed • 743 total votes
413
45 days 4-6 hours, are good enough.
174
90 days 4-6 hours, I think something more challenging is more exciting and can bring more benefits to the game.
89
180 days 4-6hours, i want be rewarded for every mob killed and that i can also stand out through my level.
67
At least a year, i dont care about casuals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/nsvat5/about_time_do_reach_max_level/

How Many Hours Should It Take to Reach Max Level?
Discussion
Just wondering how grindy people here think the game should be to but max level? Also for this poll, assume that the server already has metropolis nodes, so you're not time gated by the node system when it comes to leveling.
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