DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

And we're invested enough to actually hang around and try(?) to discuss these things in a serious and civil manner (lol).

That "try" should definitely join the heavy weight olympic competition, cause oooooh boi it's doing some insanely heavy lifting

Otr

Ludullu wrote: »

I am curious what has pushed Steven to finally say it like this. Cause even just a few months ago (or maybe it's been a damn year already) we had that one other interview where he said that Intrepid would be trying to make content that would appeal to hardcore pvers.

The stage of building hype ends and the reality will hit us in like a week.
Also competing with those other games is hard because they have more budget.
And finally can happen that actually this game will not disappoint it's target audience, who doesn't care that "there might not be any content that is guaranteed to have no PvP at it". No no.

ShivaFang

So you necro'd a thread to tell us why we didn't need to discuss the thread.

Good job.

Ludullu wrote: »

It's time to awaken the ancient evil, cause I don't wanna make a new thread just about this.

Steven has finally confirmed that we ain't getting stuff that's gonna be as difficult as FF14's ultimates or WoW's mythic+ (the clip continues a bit more after this).
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxzVVVzcryVUpXupNHYVTwbf-4wuQlc0rn?si=DEM1z0OcvbjLDlxG

So, now, I know that we've had discussions that meters don't have to be used purely for pve encounters and all that, but I do feel like when majority of players here "dps meters" - wow's mythic stuff is the first thing that comes to their minds, so I feel like if we're not getting that kind of difficulty then we don't really need the meters either.

Otr

ShivaFang wrote: »

So you necro'd a thread to tell us why we didn't need to discuss the thread.

Good job.

This thread was never dead.
But I agree, bumping it is a bit evil, like when the green puts more corruption onto the red pretending he's innocent.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

who doesn't care that "there might not be any content that is guaranteed to have no PvP at it". No no.

I feel like you're mistaking me with someone. I love pvp. I played L2 for 12 years and started following Ashes exactly because it has the same pvp system. I've also PKed countless people and have been PKed countless times, and am completely fine with both of those things. And I never expected instanced pve to be the king of Ashes. Hell, in pretty much every damn thread about instanced content I've been against it (arenas included iric).

Yet you're trying to use that quote as if it's something that's meant to scare me or smth

ShivaFang wrote: »

So you necro'd a thread to tell us why we didn't need to discuss the thread.

Good job

It's news related directly to the topic of this thread. I considered it pointless to make a whole new thread about a fairly niche topic, while we already had this topic that perfectly fit the news.

Not everyone watches all the content/news related to Ashes, but those people might check this thread because it's a meme one at this point, and discussions in it have always been quite hot (hence the obscene 215 pages).

So yes, I did do a good job

Otr

Ludullu wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

who doesn't care that "there might not be any content that is guaranteed to have no PvP at it". No no.

I feel like you're mistaking me with someone. I love pvp. I played L2 for 12 years and started following Ashes exactly because it has the same pvp system. I've also PKed countless people and have been PKed countless times, and am completely fine with both of those things. And I never expected instanced pve to be the king of Ashes. Hell, in pretty much every damn thread about instanced content I've been against it (arenas included iric).

Yet you're trying to use that quote as if it's something that's meant to scare me or smth

No, but the forum was boring lately and I am happy you bumped the thread.
And I know you played L2. I was just listing reasons and were not directed at you, just quoting that sentence.

Ludullu

Otr wrote: »

No, but the forum was boring lately and I am happy you bumped the thread.
And I know you played L2. I was just listing reasons and were not directed at you, just quoting that sentence.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

I feel like if we're not getting that kind of difficulty then we don't really need the meters either.

There is still what I consider the primary use for combat trackers though - checking Intrepids work.

I've yet to see an MMORPG where combat trackers haven't been used to identify multiple bugs, many of which would not have been identified without a tracker, even though players felt the effects of them.

I know most of the discussion in this thread was about tracker use in relation to combat, but that is because that is the aspect of them most people are familiar with. I've said a few times earlier in this thread (I challenge you to find them) that trackers in combat use is their secondary use to me.

As far as I am concerned, a developer that goes out of their way to not allow trackers to be used is sending the message that they are more concerned with being seen to be in control of their game, and less concerned with the game being as good as it can be.

That is literally the only message I take from a developer that says they will ban any players seen to be using tools that can assist in finding flaws and bugs in the game that the developers missed.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

I am curious what has pushed Steven to finally say it like this. Cause even just a few months ago (or maybe it's been a damn year already) we had that one other interview where he said that Intrepid would be trying to make content that would appeal to hardcore pvers.

In my opinion, the answer to this is that he finally realized what I've been saying here for years - action combat does not lend itself at all to that kind of PvE content.

It is one of the contradictions I've long seen in this game, and honestly, this is exactly how I expect them to all be dealt with - essentially dropping something that Steven has claimed the game would have.

Slipree

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game. The entire game is focused around pvp. Dps meters only work in a closed environment where you don’t even need to look at the screen and just roll your face across your keyboard keys.

Ace1234

@Ludullu

When that clip is put into context with other clips and comments about including high skill-ceiling pve focused content through instancing and corruption protected content, my interpretation is that the "competing" with other games that Steven is referring to is probably more relating to the quantity of that focused content that will be in Ashes, rather than the actual difficulty and quality of the existing content.

ZeldoZ

StevenSharif wrote: »

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Hello everyone!

Zeldoz here, hope you all have the chance to play the A2 and i hope you all have a lovely weekend!

let's take World of Warcraft as an example. First off, it all depends on the content and how it's designed. Back in vanilla when world of warcraft were a BETTER game overall, disagree or agree, It's a FACT, there was not that big of a need of addons if any at all. Now days in world of warcraft there are bunch of addons but not as many as two/three expansions ago, since Blizztard have implemented some stuff into the game that addons were filling up on features before that now are in the game. Ashes are said to not want to have any addons, which i LOVE, i cant forget my times as a young kid playing world of warcraft (2004) without addons and there was NO problem at all.
And it wasn't a problem for 95% of the players until it actually became necessary for tracking logs in raids.

Nowdays after many "dps check" mechanics on many bosses it has ruined alot for raiding. For those who doesn't know what im talking about: "dps check" is a common used sentence among players in wow (dont know about other mmos) when there is a boss with a "timer" for when the boss has a mechanic that will wipe out the whole raid if not enough damage is coming from the raid's dps'. This is what i want to come to. It all depends on what type of way the actual boss' are made like regarding mechanics and whatnot. Tho this are rooted in with other stuff like gear, healers output etc.

So for gear, if it isn't to much of a gap between lvl to lvl items then bosses wont be doing way to much damage if you have it balanced right. Since if you have a lvl 48 chest vs a lvl 50 chest it's only increased in +2 stamina (hitpoints) so it wont make a big difference when fighting a lvl 50 boss (if you can do that at 48). Neither will the heal be to big of a difference if the same case with the +2 stamina (hitpoints) is +2 spirit (mana regeneration). And same thing goes for dps if the case were +2 agility/strength/intellect (more dmg output physical or magical). This means if you're not doing any end game content with way too low gear as a 50 you should be good with tanking, healing and dps'ing AS LONG as you do mechanics right. The tank should be able to take the damage, the healer should be able to have mana throughout the fight to heal the tank back up and dps should be able to have enough dps so it all are synced in a nice cycle between the 3 roles and the fight itself. If the gap is too big, then this would be a problem WITHOUT the wipe mechanics if there are any. Because then people would have to have the "BIS - best in slot" gear pre the raid or end game content to uphold the fights. That's the issue if gear isn't balanced right.

Now for the specific DPS meter stuff. It is as some have said a love/hate thing. It is good to see if you are performing as a player regarding having the right rotation between your kit of spells and whatnot. BUT it is not a good thing in the longer time from what i've seen from old days in wow up until current expansions. First of all it f#cks up the connection between players because it gets easier to blame someone with low dps even if they are doing the mechanics right, even if there aren't a dps check mechanic on that boss. Which is stupid but this is VERY common in World of Warcraft these days. BECAUSE people have been failing from many years back on certain bosses mostly in general because of dps check mechanics. Then it has been stuck with the community ever since. This leads to another problem were dps players are trying SO hard to do more dmg output that they ACTUALLY forget to focus on the long run to victory which is the mechanics right. If everyone stands in dragons fire while watching the dps meter UI then everyone dies

There's more to it but i dont want it to be to long and boring. But all and all, if the boss fights are designed in a way that there arent any dps focused mechanics that are lethal and the gearing isn't to much of a difference between gear from lvl to lvl then dps meter is not necessary and you should be glad if this is the case. If not then dps meter WILL BE needed in the game so people can look on what the problem is, tank takes to much dmg, heal does to little heal, dps does to little dps and it will f#uck everything fun out of raiding. Because raiding is most fun when success comes out of it. We get glory and loot!

I really hope Intrepid have had this in mind and designed it in a older fashion way so the gap isn't to big on gear stats and that the only wipe mechanics are actual mechanics to dodge and deal with. Because I for one knows how the dps meters starts to be a common thing (late The burning crusade / Wrath of the lich king: wow expansions) to become a thing that actually takes fun out of the game, literally.

Noaani

Slipree wrote: »

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game.

The point is that this isn't how a combat tracker in Ashes should be used.

If someone is using one like this, then yeah, they are an easy kill.

If someone is using one properly though, they will be a significantly better player for it.

Slipree

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game.

The point is that this isn't how a combat tracker in Ashes should be used.

If someone is using one like this, then yeah, they are an easy kill.

If someone is using one properly though, they will be a significantly better player for it.

Better at what? Killing bullet sponges 20 seconds faster than another group? You can’t pvp like that, as people are unpredictable. Have you ever played a pvx game? Good luck trying to maximize damage while constantly prioritizing your health so you don’t get insta gibbed WHEN you get jumped.

nanfoodle

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Nightmarelol wrote: »

Can’t wait for bottom feeders to AFK a Raid and still get the same rewards as players who put in 110% effort.

This just promotes laziness and people to get away with minimal effort.

A DPS meter will filter these weasels out.
Can tell people haven’t done high level raids before and it shows

Out of touch.

Not every player gets to loot. The drops are numbered. The leader decides who gets what.

Out of touch.

Top end guilds (basically all top end guilds, though not some that think they are top end) award guild members for participation - that is what DKP is. That DKP is then used to bid on items that drop.

I have never seen any top end guild run with "leader decides" loot. I've seen some people try to run a guild like this, but any player that is worth having in an actual top end guild would have no interest at all in a guild with this kind of loot system.

QFT

George_Black

......
Pass

Sathrago

my recent escapades into throne and liberty really had me wishing for a dps meter. mostly because its really difficult to know if my damage is comparable to burst oriented classes like greatsword/dagger who can sometimes half health an elite mob with a heavy hit proc.

Being able to find the proper rotation and setup so that I can optimally play my preferred weapons or class seems to be nothing but a positive in itself. The problem with dps meters as has been beaten to death in this thread, is the social meta element where people use it for all sorts of toxic behavior.

The solution is an ingame dps meter of some sort, be it from target dummy testing or actively turned on for any combat. And to heavily punish the ridicule and toxic sentiment people throw at each other when someone is not doing the best dps for their class. Crack down on that behavior and it will stop. people have the choice to just leave parties with low dps. You are not held hostage to bad players. Get your guild or find another group. This is the correct way to play.

nanfoodle

Why is this such a persistent request. Let gaming be about fun and not metrics and spreadsheets please.

TBK

dps sounds great, git good

Noaani

nanfoodle wrote: »

Why is this such a persistent request. Let gaming be about fun and not metrics and spreadsheets please.

I agree with you - but to many, metrics and spreadsheets are fun.

Let them have their fun too.

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