DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Noaani

Slipree wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game.

The point is that this isn't how a combat tracker in Ashes should be used.

If someone is using one like this, then yeah, they are an easy kill.

If someone is using one properly though, they will be a significantly better player for it.

Better at what? Killing bullet sponges 20 seconds faster than another group? You can’t pvp like that, as people are unpredictable. Have you ever played a pvx game? Good luck trying to maximize damage while constantly prioritizing your health so you don’t get insta gibbed WHEN you get jumped.

If I have a combat tracker, I can use it to work out the finer details of the games combat system. In days, I can arrive at conclusions as to how things work and interact that would take those without this tool multiple years to arrive at.

It isn't about getting jumped, or about even using it during actual PvP. It is as simple as if I have a tracker and you do not, I know the games combat system better than you know it.

Ludullu

Ace1234 wrote: »

When that clip is put into context with other clips and comments about including high skill-ceiling pve focused content through instancing and corruption protected content, my interpretation is that the "competing" with other games that Steven is referring to is probably more relating to the quantity of that focused content that will be in Ashes, rather than the actual difficulty and quality of the existing content.

That a very positive outlook on what he said. We'll see what exactly he meant in a few years

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Ace1234 wrote: »

When that clip is put into context with other clips and comments about including high skill-ceiling pve focused content through instancing and corruption protected content, my interpretation is that the "competing" with other games that Steven is referring to is probably more relating to the quantity of that focused content that will be in Ashes, rather than the actual difficulty and quality of the existing content.

That a very positive outlook on what he said. We'll see what exactly he meant in a few years

Realistically, if they don't have the quantity, there is no point in having the quality.

Grulsh

StevenSharif wrote: »

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

IMO, DPS meter ruins immersion. None of it please. Also, arrows on the ground telling us the patch to walk. Or... teleporters allowing movement all over the world. Let us walk, let realism be part of an mmo again like EQ! I miss the more realistic methods!

Noaani

Grulsh wrote: »

IMO, DPS meter ruins immersion.

Surely the answer here is to just not use it while you are wanting to be immersed in the game.

Grulsh

Yes, that is true. I believe a damage meter takes away from an organic feel for an MMO. Let there be questions and mystery, all while having accurate tooltips. Tooltips also do not need specific numbers, just a description!

Noaani

Grulsh wrote: »

Yes, that is true. I believe a damage meter takes away from an organic feel for an MMO. Let there be questions and mystery, all while having accurate tooltips. Tooltips also do not need specific numbers, just a description!

While I don't disagree with your over all notion of how you want the game to be, I've yet to play an MMORPG that I haven't submitted bug reports about incorrect tooltips - using information I obtained using a combat tracker. I'm also unsure how you could have accurate tooltips with only a description.

As to wanting questions and mystery - these things are only good if there is a means to get the answers. Having questions that no one is ever going to answer isn't enjoyable.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Realistically, if they don't have the quantity, there is no point in having the quality.

I do think we'll have the quantity. But it won't be anywhere near the quality you personally, or other people with your kinds of standards, would want.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Realistically, if they don't have the quantity, there is no point in having the quality.

I do think we'll have the quantity. But it won't be anywhere near the quality you personally, or other people with your kinds of standards, would want.

Yeah, I think that is the best people can hope for at this point.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game.

The point is that this isn't how a combat tracker in Ashes should be used.

If someone is using one like this, then yeah, they are an easy kill.

If someone is using one properly though, they will be a significantly better player for it.

Better at what? Killing bullet sponges 20 seconds faster than another group? You can’t pvp like that, as people are unpredictable. Have you ever played a pvx game? Good luck trying to maximize damage while constantly prioritizing your health so you don’t get insta gibbed WHEN you get jumped.

If I have a combat tracker, I can use it to work out the finer details of the games combat system. In days, I can arrive at conclusions as to how things work and interact that would take those without this tool multiple years to arrive at.

not necessarily

It isn't about getting jumped, or about even using it during actual PvP. It is as simple as if I have a tracker and you do not, I know the games combat system better than you know it.

not really. they can also work against you. refer back to my dagger and mage example.

Grulsh

I will be happy either way, I just prefer it to not exist. Without one, it is much more difficult to figure out the perfect build which I prefer. Just my opinion is all.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game.

The point is that this isn't how a combat tracker in Ashes should be used.

If someone is using one like this, then yeah, they are an easy kill.

If someone is using one properly though, they will be a significantly better player for it.

Better at what? Killing bullet sponges 20 seconds faster than another group? You can’t pvp like that, as people are unpredictable. Have you ever played a pvx game? Good luck trying to maximize damage while constantly prioritizing your health so you don’t get insta gibbed WHEN you get jumped.

If I have a combat tracker, I can use it to work out the finer details of the games combat system. In days, I can arrive at conclusions as to how things work and interact that would take those without this tool multiple years to arrive at.

not necessarily

But generally yes.

The fact that there are occasionally exceptions doesn't change the fact that the statement is generally true.

not really. they can also work against you. refer back to my dagger and mage example.

Obviously people need to apply some basic critical thinking. Keep in mind, it isn't as if people use a tracker and then work out what would be theoretically best based purely on that. They are still playing the game, they still have all the knowledge and understanding you have - they just have more on top of that.

Basically, someone like me with a tracker knows everything about the game that you do, plus more on top of that.

If this wasn't the case, there would be no argument at all against them.

Caeryl

Grulsh wrote: »

Yes, that is true. I believe a damage meter takes away from an organic feel for an MMO. Let there be questions and mystery, all while having accurate tooltips. Tooltips also do not need specific numbers, just a description!

Tooltips should absolutely have specific numbers. There's keeping some mechanics 'pay attention' only which I'm in full favor of, and then there's obnoxious and unhelpful lack of clarity.

You need to know what your own baseline damage is, and floating-text for damage as an option will also be required due to a lack of specific HP indicators, so you can get a gauge of what your opponent's build is like. If your 5000 physical damage tooltip is only hitting for 1000 physical damage, then you can logically assume they have a high amount of armor and you'll have to adjust.

Blindly plinking at enemies in hopes that what you're doing is effective is an exercise in frustration.

DPS meters imo are a very helpful tool for understanding the baseline power of your particular build in a no-threat environment, and watching someone parse actually lets you see where they're struggling with buff utilization, uptimes, etc, but even that can be done without a log displaying it all. I'm sure there will end up being some specific mob that people will parse on to determine dps, same as other games have done. Just set a timer, have them kill it, and get total hp divided by time-to-kill.

That said, outside tools should never be required to understand a fight. The developers should be utilizing visual and audio cues to inform players of what is going on in a fight. It's only in the absence of well-designed encounters that you need a combat log system to tell you what happened.

ESO flops in a lot of ways, but I'll die on the hill that their sound design and visual cues for raids are some of the best designed in the genre. You do not need any kind of combat cue addon to tell you what's happening, and the one time I used one on request of a guild, it was nothing but a distraction to the point I turned every text prompt off while it was installed after one fight.

I have eyes, I have ears, I have a memory better than a goldfish. I don't need the UI feeding me info to parse a fight on my screen when it's designed well

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Slipree wrote: »

What’s the point of a dps meter, when I can come along and kill you while you’re focusing on your rotation. This isn’t a pve game.

The point is that this isn't how a combat tracker in Ashes should be used.

If someone is using one like this, then yeah, they are an easy kill.

If someone is using one properly though, they will be a significantly better player for it.

Better at what? Killing bullet sponges 20 seconds faster than another group? You can’t pvp like that, as people are unpredictable. Have you ever played a pvx game? Good luck trying to maximize damage while constantly prioritizing your health so you don’t get insta gibbed WHEN you get jumped.

If I have a combat tracker, I can use it to work out the finer details of the games combat system. In days, I can arrive at conclusions as to how things work and interact that would take those without this tool multiple years to arrive at.

not necessarily

But generally yes.

The fact that there are occasionally exceptions doesn't change the fact that the statement is generally true.

not really. they can also work against you. refer back to my dagger and mage example.

Obviously people need to apply some basic critical thinking. Keep in mind, it isn't as if people use a tracker and then work out what would be theoretically best based purely on that. They are still playing the game, they still have all the knowledge and understanding you have - they just have more on top of that.

Basically, someone like me with a tracker knows everything about the game that you do, plus more on top of that.

If this wasn't the case, there would be no argument at all against them.

but if you know everything about the game, why do you need a tracker to gain knowledge? you cant go beyond 100%. cant know more than there is.

and if you don't know everything, in which case, you would use a tracker, it can make you make the wrong decision.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

but if you know everything about the game, why do you need a tracker to gain knowledge?

Did you not read the last three words in that statement?

I didn't say "knows everythihng about the game", I said "knows everything about the game that you do".

Those last three words completely change the meaning of that statement. Please read properly.

Laetitian

@Ludullu, you *must* have known you were triggering another 200 pages when you bumped this.

Ludullu

Laetitian wrote: »

Ludullu, you *must* have known you were triggering another 200 pages when you bumped this.

The evil of my deeds are beyond comprehension

Chongz

what about allowing it above certain difficulty threshold where people can opt in and choice go be exposed?! but more than a dps meter, a combat tracker that could in fact help with the encounter.

Caeryl

Chongz wrote: »

what about allowing it above certain difficulty threshold where people can opt in and choice go be exposed?! but more than a dps meter, a combat tracker that could in fact help with the encounter.

Absolutely not

Learn the fight, and in all seriousness, get good. Stop relying on cheesy addons to do the work of your eyes and ears

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Chongz wrote: »

what about allowing it above certain difficulty threshold where people can opt in and choice go be exposed?! but more than a dps meter, a combat tracker that could in fact help with the encounter.

Absolutely not Learn the fight, and in all seriousness, get good. Stop relying on cheesy addons to do the work of your eyes and ears

You guys are now talking about a combat assistant, not a combat tracker.

I agree combat assistants shouldn't be a thing.

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