The new player experience for crafting needs to be fixed

I think crafting should be easy to pickup and hard to master. Currently it’s hard to pickup and hard to master. After taking the time to learn the system, I understand it. But, I can see others getting confused because it’s very complicated just to a simple item. I think having a complex crafting system is good but making the crafting system hard from the start is a terrible choice. It needs to be simple to begin with then get more complex overtime.

I have a solution to onboard players more smoothly so people don’t give up on crafting before they even get started. Let’s use the weaponsmithing artisan skill as an example. A way to make it easier for new players to get started would be to make copper weapons the second tier of weapons you create instead of the first. This is because crafting a lvl 5 copper weapon is a lot of work for a very mediocre weapon. It also is hard for new players to know all the steps to make it since it requires so many artisan skills to make. I would change cooper weapons to go from being a lvl 5 weapon to a lvl 10 weapon and the stats should be for adjusted to be good for a level 10 character. Then, I would make the brass weapons go from lvl 10 to lvl 15 and the higher tier weapons be adjusted up 5 levels as well. Now instead of a cooper weapon being the first thing you craft for lvl 5. The first weapon you make would be a crude stone weapon that only requires unrefined granite and unrefined wood. This weapon would not require a mold as well. This would make crafting your first weapon simple and easy. Anyone could get started doing it and the effort required to make level 5 weapon would be worth it. Then, when you are level 10 you would go on to craft a lvl 10 cooper sword and need to do all the steps you need to do currently for it. It’s going to be much easier for a new player to learn crafting this way and the rewards would actually match the effort involved to make the craftable items. Similar changes could be made to the other all the artisan crafting skills (armor smithing, cooking, arcane engeering, etc.) We just need crafting to be easier to get into.

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Ludullu

As someone who's gonna main armor and weapon smithing - I personally prefer the current design. Imo crafting should be complex even at the start, because that would mean that only the dedicated players would go into crafting, which in turn means that the whole crafting side of the game is supported by hardcore players doing their best to produce the best stuff.

I do agree that we should have a slightly easier time getting the mats for the newbie gear together. I personally think that should be achieved by having some mats drop from mobs, including rare minerals/metals/etc. This way crafters wouldn't have to dabble into other professions right from the start (though obviously this is not required if you have a party/guild).

Azherae

From my end, I'd say, at the risk of being extremely biased once again...

"Weapon Smithing" is the wrong concept for how to do this in the first place. There's a reason the FF11 crafts are what they are, it's not some random arbitrary choice of distinction.

"Blade Working" or even "Metal Casting" would be better if one doesn't want to just use 'Blacksmithing' which I totally understand.

Please sort your professions so that they all have things they clearly do and are required for. The fact that making your own Lumbering Axe can potentially fall under 'Weapon Smithing' is not intuitive enough.

I don't like the Copper Ore distribution either, obviously, but this is solved in games I play by drops from digger creatures (worms, moles, ants, etc) moreso than actual gathering nodes. Obv I'd like/take that too. Maybe random fragments from armed Goblins or crudely armed bandits?

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I don't like the Copper Ore distribution either, obviously, but this is solved in games I play by drops from digger creatures (worms, moles, ants, etc) moreso than actual gathering nodes. Obv I'd like/take that too. Maybe random fragments from armed Goblins or crudely armed bandits?

Really hope we get better loot tables in Phase 2, cause I think that's an economy-enough system to test it there.

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I don't like the Copper Ore distribution either, obviously, but this is solved in games I play by drops from digger creatures (worms, moles, ants, etc) moreso than actual gathering nodes. Obv I'd like/take that too. Maybe random fragments from armed Goblins or crudely armed bandits?

Really hope we get better loot tables in Phase 2, cause I think that's an economy-enough system to test it there.

I'm sure they're working on it, but getting the gathering node spawns working first is probably more important. There's a certain amount of econ testing and dev that they are probably doing now, since this is the time to do some of it, but material droprates from mobs probably should come only after the incentive-flow structure for low level players is actually working.

That said, Intrepid, this specific one might be worth a pass now? You altered Glint drops for what I assume is a similar reason. Some of your early game incentives are pretty scuffed as they are without the Copper Ore/Copper Fragment/Cloth Scrap drops. That's my feedback, anyway...

Ludullu

Yeah, getting that in before the 8th would be a great way to test both, the stability of the system when everything is being farmed by a ton of people and the economic side of this, cause, well, everything will be getting farmed

Flashfirez23

Ludullu wrote: »

As someone who's gonna main armor and weapon smithing - I personally prefer the current design. Imo crafting should be complex even at the start, because that would mean that only the dedicated players would go into crafting, which in turn means that the whole crafting side of the game is supported by hardcore players doing their best to produce the best stuff.

I do agree that we should have a slightly easier time getting the mats for the newbie gear together. I personally think that should be achieved by having some mats drop from mobs, including rare minerals/metals/etc. This way crafters wouldn't have to dabble into other professions right from the start (though obviously this is not required if you have a party/guild).

All I am asking is for the first tier to be reasonable for a new player to get started crafting. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Ashes currently has the worst low level crafting out of any mmo I have ever played (yes even for an alpha). And many people wont even want to bother with it if it’s too burdensome to even start. It needs to be fixed.

Azherae

Flashfirez23 wrote: »

Ludullu wrote: »

As someone who's gonna main armor and weapon smithing - I personally prefer the current design. Imo crafting should be complex even at the start, because that would mean that only the dedicated players would go into crafting, which in turn means that the whole crafting side of the game is supported by hardcore players doing their best to produce the best stuff.

I do agree that we should have a slightly easier time getting the mats for the newbie gear together. I personally think that should be achieved by having some mats drop from mobs, including rare minerals/metals/etc. This way crafters wouldn't have to dabble into other professions right from the start (though obviously this is not required if you have a party/guild).

All I am asking is for the first tier to be reasonable for a new player to get started crafting. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Ashes has the worst low level crafting out of any mmo I have ever played. And many people wont even want to bother with it if it’s too burdensome to even start. It needs to be fixed.

For clarity, this stage of the Alpha isn't focused on Economy or Artisanship, so my (and I believe Ludullu's) comments are entirely from the perspective of 'minimum necessary to address any issues that the design is having on the current phase.

So at least for me, if relevant, I agree completely, it's just that we've been told that it isn't time yet. Sure, they might be able to make some changes to elevate it from 'worst ever' to 'at least not actively painful', but we're not expecting much at this stage.

Ludullu

Flashfirez23 wrote: »

All I am asking is for the first tier to be reasonable for a new player to get started crafting. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Ashes currently has the worst low level crafting out of any mmo I have ever played (yes even for an alpha). And many people wont even want to bother with it if it’s too burdensome to even start. It needs to be fixed.

I know I'm a special little cookie, but I got hyped as hell when I started getting into the crafting system exactly because it seems complex as hell right from the start. To me that just screamed "oh, if you crafted this - you accomplished something".

And in a game where even lvl1 mobs can kill you if you're not careful, I feel like that kind of crafting is aligned with the overall direction of the design. But I do agree with what Azherae said above. I expect the overall process to be streamlined and more approachable, but I'd personally prefer if the complexity of the system itself remained.

Xeeg

Ludullu wrote: »

Flashfirez23 wrote: »

All I am asking is for the first tier to be reasonable for a new player to get started crafting. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Ashes currently has the worst low level crafting out of any mmo I have ever played (yes even for an alpha). And many people wont even want to bother with it if it’s too burdensome to even start. It needs to be fixed.

I know I'm a special little cookie, but I got hyped as hell when I started getting into the crafting system exactly because it seems complex as hell right from the start. To me that just screamed "oh, if you crafted this - you accomplished something".

And in a game where even lvl1 mobs can kill you if you're not careful, I feel like that kind of crafting is aligned with the overall direction of the design. But I do agree with what Azherae said above. I expect the overall process to be streamlined and more approachable, but I'd personally prefer if the complexity of the system itself remained.

I actually agree with this. The part I am more worried about is the gathering side. Processing and crafting mains don't need to spend alot of downtime doing their professions. They can go grind mobs with their team, level up and get items/mats off of the monsters.

However, on the gathering side, you need to spend a significant amount of time harvesting the materials to level up your profession. Time spent that isn't really done while in a group mob grinding. Sure, sometimes it is nice to relax and just harvest some things and chill, not saying that it is bad game play. I'm just noting that there is a discrepancy between the professions when it comes to group play and combat time; gathering is more of a solo thing.

SirChancelot

I think if each profession had a short little quest chain as a how to that would do wonders

I liked the little walk through they had in the starter town, but instead of ending with a "hey go deliver these herbs you processed" there was something like "what profession are you interested in" and then he sends you to where you can get the starter certificate and then a new mini quest chain walks you through that profession in more detail if it needs explaining. Mining is pretty straight forward so probably wouldn't need anything, but armor crafting with molds and such could definitely benefit from a demo.

magical-hobo

Why does everything have to be easy and spoonfed? Any real life artisan or crafting. Is ALWAYS hard at first.

RedLeader1

I also think that if the crating system isn't complex, it gets boring over time. I don't think making it unnecessarily complex and difficult to understand is appropriate, but if it requires a lot of skill or intelligence to master, then it usually means success (at every level) will be more rewarding and unique.

Azherae

RedLeader1 wrote: »

I also think that if the crating system isn't complex, it gets boring over time. I don't think making it unnecessarily complex and difficult to understand is appropriate, but if it requires a lot of skill or intelligence to master, then it usually means success (at every level) will be more rewarding and unique.

I think that Ashes is in a somewhat unique position relative to this, at the moment, among MMORPGs, if they can handle RMT as well as they advertise.

The thing holding back the crafting in modern games like TL (and in a different way, New World) is that you need completely open trade/Auction House systems for it to work properly.

The gap between what an Artisan wants to do or understand, and what an 'Adventurer-only' player wants to do or understand, can get quite large, and finding a crafting system to make both happy is a challenge, to say the least.

But even then, there's a limit, if it takes too much to master, the 'casual-knowledge' player might not even know that a crafter can make something they want (which is why it's super important in games where you can check people's gear, to make sure that crafters can sign their gear, it's not for the dedicated players, it's for everyone else).

If only one person has that perfect Copper Sword that some artisan spent 10 game hours making, but no one can see that at a glance, then a complex system tends to get a lot more complaints, in my experience.

GreatPhilisopher

the entire artisan thing is horrible right now , no idea how it works , almost 0 explanation just like the whole starting experience and the way to craft things is convoluted and complex for no reason and the amount of mats for anything is stupid high.

all in all its all a shitshow

Its_Me

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

the entire artisan thing is horrible right now , no idea how it works , almost 0 explanation just like the whole starting experience and the way to craft things is convoluted and complex for no reason and the amount of mats for anything is stupid high.

all in all its all a shitshow

This is why you are in an alpha, you discover things that are either bugged or you feel need work and you report them so mechanics are improved.

RedLeader1

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

the entire artisan thing is horrible right now , no idea how it works , almost 0 explanation just like the whole starting experience and the way to craft things is convoluted and complex for no reason and the amount of mats for anything is stupid high.

all in all its all a shitshow

That really isn't helpful from a feedback perspective. Try and articulate what makes it too complex/convoluted, remembering that one of the pillars of design is that of risk vs reward. The better the item you are crafting, the more time you are going to have to risk wasting in order to get it.

If you are complaining that you may be wasting your time, then that is intentional.

Ludullu

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

the entire artisan thing is horrible right now , no idea how it works , almost 0 explanation just like the whole starting experience and the way to craft things is convoluted and complex for no reason and the amount of mats for anything is stupid high.

all in all its all a shitshow

I found it pretty straightforward. You look at what you need in the recipe, you follow the chain of craft/process down to gatherables and you go look for those gatherables (be it player trade or gather yourself).

It becomes even more straightforward once you do it in a node, instead of trying to find stations in the wild.

MissionCreep

I prefer the current design. I'm not talking about the handholding/tutorial/tooltips, that could be drastically improved (it currently does not exist at all except for Sweat of my Brow). But "new player experience" is not typically the focus of an Alpha. It can be, and maybe it should be, but it rarely is.

It can also be hard to design a new player experience to teach systems when those systems are not finalized, not complete, or perhaps not even started.

To make most gear you need:
The finished Craft skill
+
Gatherable A --> Processing B
+
Gatherable C --> Processing D
+
Gatherable E --> Processing F
+
Some minor input that does not require high skill

It's true for all the gear of that type** within a given tier and it's also true at all the other tiers: at Novice, at Apprentice, at Journeyman, at Master, and at Grandmaster.

The (general) formula is utterly predictable, and obviously the resource tiers elevate to match each Crafting tier. That's a good system.

** Obviously the inputs change, either the quantity or scarcity.

Mardrik

I love crafting. I would like to see everyone needing the crafters, even other crafters. I like what I am seeing, although I am also hoping interactivity when crafting via skills is also implemented. Remember in eq2 where adventuring skills were made by scribes, using rares for the highest tiers, and even then it took skill. That made people need crafters. No game has lived up to the crafting in my eyes like that one. That said This isn't really what is being tested right now I believe. Fully expecting things to change in the days to come I'm not worried about it at this stage.

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