Question for Intrepid

Q: What is your response to seeing members of the community tell others to "find a different game" when people have opposing views when providing feedback for ashes? How inclusive and open-minded do you want the ashes community to be when it comes to all types of constructive player feedback?

Note: I definitely feel like the community could use some direction

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Taleof2Cities

A: By sharing the development progress through community feedback, monthly streams, and Alpha access, Intrepid is already #1 for inclusivity and open-mindedness.

But, that doesn’t mean that every single piece of constructive feedback will be accepted and used by the devs.

There are these things called Ashes “pillars” … which are pretty static and not changing. Such as a PvX style of gameplay.

Nefficles

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

A: By sharing the development progress through community feedback, monthly streams, and Alpha access, Intrepid is already #1 for inclusivity and open-mindedness.

But, that doesn’t mean that every single piece of constructive feedback will be accepted and used by the devs.

There are these things called Ashes “pillars” … which are pretty static and not changing. Such as a PvX style of gameplay.

When I'm saying the ashes community, I'm meaning the fans and followers of the project, not Intrepid themselves. I'm more asking for them to guide their fanbase more with how they wish for them to act with each other as I feel this direction has been heavily overlooked.

Dezemi

I mean, Steven can be quoted on many, many, many occasions saying "this game is not for everyone, and thats okay" so *in general* the recommendation of "finding a different game" or "this game is not for you" is okay.

Then obviously, some people use a tone that leaves much to be desired; but I can understand that many of the supporters get annoyed when certain very non-AoC-like suggestions keep popping up like:

* "PvP should be optional" / "PvE servers" - Steven has stated several times that he wants the game to be a PvX game. PvP is not optional, but can be more or less avoided depending on which route you go about.

* "More instanced content" - Steven has stated that there will be instanced content, but these will never drop bis gear nor bis materials because that would be conflicting with the "risk vs. reward" philosophy.

* "Exp debt / material loss on death should be removed" - while this is something I believe can be discussed at least when it comes to the severity of it; I believe that these additions to death is necessary to keep the philosophy in tact.

* "Fast travel please" - there would be little point for the world of Verra to be as grand and amazing as it is if we're just going to zap to whatever location we like. And if people believe zergs might be a problem now? Oh boy, are you in for a treat should fast travel be allowed...

TL;DR - "This game is not for everyone" - Steven, in multiple streams on multiple occasions.

Hutchy1989

It depends what they are responding to, like if someone says they want pvp to be opt in then yeah go play a different game.

Ludullu

Dezmerizing wrote: »

TL;DR - "This game is not for everyone" - Steven, in multiple streams on multiple occasions.

All of this comment. I've only been following the game for 4 years, but I've seen dozens of threads and "constructive criticism" that all boiled down to "this game is DOA if they don't do the most basic-bitch wow-like design ever".

So, "game is not for you" is the nicest thing I could tell those people.

Vhaeyne

Ludullu wrote: »

So, "game is not for you" is the nicest thing I could tell those people.

"This game may not be something you enjoy."

Might be slightly nicer.

I don't remember if there has been a thread on how to best sugar coat "This game is not for everyone".

Caww

Nefficles wrote: »

Q: What is your response to seeing members of the community tell others to "find a different game" ....

Since AoC is so far from anything like a release candidate it is probably good advice for the average gamer to just wait and check it out at a later time.

Ludullu

Vhaeyne wrote: »

"This game may not be something you enjoy."

Might be slightly nicer.

I prefer to be blunt with this particular response, because being softer would just (and have in the past) lead to an endless back&forth of "noo, I'm sure I'll enjoy it, as long as they completely change THIS ONE MASSIVE PILLAR OF THE DESIGN

Arya_Yeshe

Nefficles wrote: »

Q: What is your response to seeing members of the community tell others to "find a different game" when people have opposing views when providing feedback for ashes? How inclusive and open-minded do you want the ashes community to be when it comes to all types of constructive player feedback?

Note: I definitely feel like the community could use some direction

Yeap, it is full of gobloks around here who puke the "this game is not for everyone" mantra as if that was a good thing, LOL!
What is bad is bad, if it's bad then it's not everyone since we have compassion to human beings and don't wan't them playing a bad game and wasting years of their lives.

"this game is not for everyone" is ugly, not a lead telling that the game is good

Andi

I'd maybe phrase it as "It's a niche game for a very specific audience (old-school MMO players)".

nanfoodle

It's already been said. Steven has been firm he will not change the pillars of what his vision is. Feedback outside that is more then acceptable. If you know the pillars, you can give feedback that will keep the vision intact. Many here including myself have given feedback and seen it implamented.

mainedutch

I've had this conversation a lot across a lot of places.

A lot of people heard about AoC being the next big MMO. What they didn't do was their research: the whole point of Ashes is to fill in the gap of the real MMOs that essentially died in the early 2000s, which are hard, unforgiving, and require arduous adventuring to achieve in.

They were games where you made little progress over long periods but were so much more immersive and rewarding due to the difficulty players faced session to session. Essentially, AoC is the opposite of MMOs today where you can log in at 8AM, be max level by noon, then run the highest tier content by nightfall.

I don't think we should deter people like many of us have (I've caught myself saying 'This isn't your game' many times already, and I shouldn't), but this game is built on some strong pillars of what made the MMOs of yore great. Always-on PvP is one of them, and not letting everything be a cakewalk. Steven has said the world is scary and daunting, and it will remain that way, thankfully.

The reason you probably see many of us being toxic about people suggesting to make it "easier" or add in "casual friendly features" (fast travel is another that pisses me off) is because those are many of the same exact features that make MMOs today so bad. IMO they're hardly even MMOs. They're single-player games with multiplayer content if you really break it down.

So, yes, we should strike more of a welcoming tone, but the people we're probably fighting back against should also learn more about what AoC actually is. It's not the MMOs of today... Not at all.

Vhaeyne

mainedutch wrote: »

The reason you probably see many of us being toxic about people suggesting to make it "easier" or add in "casual friendly features" (fast travel is another that pisses me off) is because those are many of the same exact features that make MMOs today so bad. IMO they're hardly even MMOs. They're single-player games with multiplayer content if you really break it down.

I agree that we should all want to be more welcoming. It is better for the game and the community for sure.

It's a challenge when we have also all lost a game or two to these 'Casual friendly features' and these people come in "pushing" to take another game from you.

I don't think I will ever play Darkfall online again. I lived in that world.

Ever since Alpha 1 I have lived in Ashes. Not as much as Darkfall, but I was there and I loved it.

Now that I am living (on the weekends) in Ashes. My passion for this game is at an all time high.

I think there are a lot of people in the community with a similar story to me.

So I understand and forgive most people on here for being a little toxic.

I do agree we could all be more welcoming.

It's a hard balance to strike with so much passion involved.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

"This game may not be something you enjoy."

Might be slightly nicer.

I prefer to be blunt with this particular response, because being softer would just (and have in the past) lead to an endless back&forth of "noo, I'm sure I'll enjoy it, as long as they completely change THIS ONE MASSIVE PILLAR OF THE DESIGN ".

Agreed.

Being blunt is sometimes the nicest, kindest thing you can do for a person.

If someone is set in a given mindset, and that mindset is actually just wrong, sugar coating things is often going to reinforce that mindset rather than shift it.

Veeshan

Nefficles wrote: »

Q: What is your response to seeing members of the community tell others to "find a different game" when people have opposing views when providing feedback for ashes? How inclusive and open-minded do you want the ashes community to be when it comes to all types of constructive player feedback?

Note: I definitely feel like the community could use some direction

to be fair if somone feedback goes ageist the core pillar of the game then it relay isnt the game for you cause there not changing.

Githal

The game cant be liked by 100% of all gamers and Steven knows this. If he change something to cater to some players, this will make other players angry with the change. There are a lot of games that try to make everyone happy that end up being bland with no uniqueness which leads to no fun gameplay and a lot other problems. In the end the community leaves anyway.

I agree with Steven that not changing your principles is the right way to go.

Vhaeyne

Steven reinforcing his stance on not being willing to compromise on the core pillars of the game gives me so much hope.

When they were talking about holding to Stevens vision in the dev stream I was thrilled. I know the reality of working on a team and seeing the initial vision getting tainted and cursed over time. I am glad to see ashes is holding strong.

bloodprophet

mainedutch wrote: »

I've had this conversation a lot across a lot of places.

A lot of people heard about AoC being the next big MMO. What they didn't do was their research: the whole point of Ashes is to fill in the gap of the real MMOs that essentially died in the early 2000s, which are hard, unforgiving, and require arduous adventuring to achieve in.

They were games where you made little progress over long periods but were so much more immersive and rewarding due to the difficulty players faced session to session. Essentially, AoC is the opposite of MMOs today where you can log in at 8AM, be max level by noon, then run the highest tier content by nightfall.

I don't think we should deter people like many of us have (I've caught myself saying 'This isn't your game' many times already, and I shouldn't), but this game is built on some strong pillars of what made the MMOs of yore great. Always-on PvP is one of them, and not letting everything be a cakewalk. Steven has said the world is scary and daunting, and it will remain that way, thankfully.

The reason you probably see many of us being toxic about people suggesting to make it "easier" or add in "casual friendly features" (fast travel is another that pisses me off) is because those are many of the same exact features that make MMOs today so bad. IMO they're hardly even MMOs. They're single-player games with multiplayer content if you really break it down.

So, yes, we should strike more of a welcoming tone, but the people we're probably fighting back against should also learn more about what AoC actually is. It's not the MMOs of today... Not at all.

I agree 100%.
Most wannabe MMO's these days are just a single player game ,shared world experience. I am happy Intrepid has chosen to make a real MMO.

So many people come in swinging for the fences, "If you don't do this the game is DOA!!!!!!"
Those that do this kind of thing should never be catered to. And this happens often. Current front page regarding the art style is a prime example.

People can and should have the right to their say. But the least they can do is be constructive without trying to alter the main focus of what is by making it the same as everything else.

mainedutch

bloodprophet wrote: »

mainedutch wrote: »

I've had this conversation a lot across a lot of places.

A lot of people heard about AoC being the next big MMO. What they didn't do was their research: the whole point of Ashes is to fill in the gap of the real MMOs that essentially died in the early 2000s, which are hard, unforgiving, and require arduous adventuring to achieve in.

They were games where you made little progress over long periods but were so much more immersive and rewarding due to the difficulty players faced session to session. Essentially, AoC is the opposite of MMOs today where you can log in at 8AM, be max level by noon, then run the highest tier content by nightfall.

I don't think we should deter people like many of us have (I've caught myself saying 'This isn't your game' many times already, and I shouldn't), but this game is built on some strong pillars of what made the MMOs of yore great. Always-on PvP is one of them, and not letting everything be a cakewalk. Steven has said the world is scary and daunting, and it will remain that way, thankfully.

The reason you probably see many of us being toxic about people suggesting to make it "easier" or add in "casual friendly features" (fast travel is another that pisses me off) is because those are many of the same exact features that make MMOs today so bad. IMO they're hardly even MMOs. They're single-player games with multiplayer content if you really break it down.

So, yes, we should strike more of a welcoming tone, but the people we're probably fighting back against should also learn more about what AoC actually is. It's not the MMOs of today... Not at all.

I agree 100%.
Most wannabe MMO's these days are just a single player game ,shared world experience. I am happy Intrepid has chosen to make a real MMO.

So many people come in swinging for the fences, "If you don't do this the game is DOA!!!!!!"
Those that do this kind of thing should never be catered to. And this happens often. Current front page regarding the art style is a prime example.

People can and should have the right to their say. But the least they can do is be constructive without trying to alter the main focus of what is by making it the same as everything else.

"A game for everyone is a game for no one."

AoC will be niche, and we will stay, and we will love it and love it. (:

Vhaeyne

Imagine if someone said:

Eve is for everyone.
Lineage 2 is for everyone.
Archage is for everyone.
Star wars galaxies is for everyone.

Not one of those games were for everyone in their prime.

Any of them that tried to be for everyone failed.

The core inspirations for Ashes were all once extremely solid games. Ashes has to capture the good in those games without being corrupt along the way.

Child Item