So I guess Guilds >> Node citizenship? Lame UPDATE - City Chat Exists

No Node chat.
No way to tell who is a node citizen.

But instead we get guild tags on our names and dedicated guild chat?

I thought the idea behind this game was that Node Citizenship was supposed to be MORE important than joining some mass spam guild?

Lame

*UPDATE*
Either i'm blind and bitching about nothing or they snuck one on me. We have City chat, only for citizens....

=D

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Noaani

Do you honestly want a game where the social structure no one has any oversight in regards to membership is the one that takes precedence over the social structure where you can indeed oversee that membership?

I'd personally put precedence on people that I am in a guild with because I like them, rather than people I am in a node with because they decided to join the metropolis I helped build.

Jacobftw

I mean it is Alpha 2, kinda early to have that attitude. Just give the feedback bro.

Nerror

The whole node chat and importance and all that is still to be implemented. Let's see the balance once it's all in. Or mostly all in.

Already in A2 with the different node types and mayoral buildings, I can definitely see why guilds want to split up into different nodes depending on the benefits. Add to that the social orgs and more mayoral stuff and node wars.. I can see guilds getting into internal guild drama over it.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

Do you honestly want a game where the social structure no one has any oversight in regards to membership is the one that takes precedence over the social structure where you can indeed oversee that membership?

I'd personally put precedence on people that I am in a guild with because I like them, rather than people I am in a node with because they decided to join the metropolis I helped build.

It's the vision that Steven outlined, it's the vision that I want to see implemented.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Affiliations

Xeeg

Jacobftw wrote: »

I mean it is Alpha 2, kinda early to have that attitude. Just give the feedback bro.

Yeah but the servers were down and I wanted to complain about something.

Spif

I assume that node Citizen chat will be a thing. Maybe just not implemented yet. I'd also like to see node area chat.

Global is overused

Noaani

Xeeg wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Do you honestly want a game where the social structure no one has any oversight in regards to membership is the one that takes precedence over the social structure where you can indeed oversee that membership?

I'd personally put precedence on people that I am in a guild with because I like them, rather than people I am in a node with because they decided to join the metropolis I helped build.

It's the vision that Steven outlined, it's the vision that I want to see implemented.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Affiliations

I know it's what he said, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, kr a possible thing.

You put this notion to most MMO players - explain to them the open nature of joining a node and the closed nature of joining a guild, then tell them the games designer had the intention of trying to make people look at node citizenship as their primary social construct - and watch them laugh.

5he fact that so many people are already in the guild they intent to be playing Ashes in, and the notion that nodes are designed to be temporary rather than permanant, and the whole thing really is just a joke.

Just because Steven said it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Do you honestly want a game where the social structure no one has any oversight in regards to membership is the one that takes precedence over the social structure where you can indeed oversee that membership?

I'd personally put precedence on people that I am in a guild with because I like them, rather than people I am in a node with because they decided to join the metropolis I helped build.

It's the vision that Steven outlined, it's the vision that I want to see implemented.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Affiliations

I know it's what he said, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing, kr a possible thing.

You put this notion to most MMO players - explain to them the open nature of joining a node and the closed nature of joining a guild, then tell them the games designer had the intention of trying to make people look at node citizenship as their primary social construct - and watch them laugh.

5he fact that so many people are already in the guild they intent to be playing Ashes in, and the notion that nodes are designed to be temporary rather than permanant, and the whole thing really is just a joke.

Just because Steven said it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Honestly id rather just do away with the guilds altogether and only have nodes... shrug

Andi

Node > Guild

That's the way it's intended to go, and it's the design Ashes caught a lot of people's attention.

Laetitian

I disagree with Noaani in that I think theoretically node pride stronger than guild pride could have been a really cool thing in an MMO in general.

But Ashes is actively designed against committing to that idea.

You're incentivised to go out and actively level up other nodes that have more valuable rewards than your node.
You're incentivised to leave your node and join another one, if your node was vassalized by a regent you disagree with, because there are no tools to overthrow your existing ruler from the inside.

Node pride and node progression is meant to be something you unintentionally implement through the choices you were going to make naturally anyway, not something you view as a greater purpose to your decisions. As such, node affiliation was never going to be anywhere near as significant as the group you actively join because you like it.

Noaani

Laetitian wrote: »

I disagree with Noaani in that I think theoretically node pride stronger than guild pride could have been a really cool thing in an MMO in general.

I agree it would be cool.

But it wouldn't be possible with the basic concept of nodes as Ashes has them.

The first thing that would need to happen is a mechanic for restricting membership. It's hard to be "proud" of something you are a part of that literally anyone else can also be a part of if they wish to be. Everyone not in your node is not in it by choice, as opposed to guilds where if you are actually a good guild, people become envious of the guilds members.

So, I'm not saying the concept of nodes being what people identify primarily as being a part of is a bad thing, I'm saying Ashes is just not set up for thst to be the case at all.

It's almost as if the game is being designed by someone that doesn't actually understand players.

Andi

Guilds are what you have to organise the people to build up a node (at this stage in development), that's why you're seeing big guilds in mayoral positions. Nodes are the result of all the people in the local community.

What type of node you want depends on what's already available elsewhere, because it makes no sense to have blacksmiths levelled everywhere. That makes coordination between nodes important, which in turn creates politics, which creates friction and conflict.

You can't have nodes without some way to rally and organise players, and the more social features nodes will offer, the easier it will become.

One thing to remember: Players are actively disincentivised to form small, social groups of friends, because that will make them vulnerable (to be declared war on) and offer nothing in return. Players have every reason to join the biggest zergs they can join, because the rule of the land is "might makes right". The only way to get away with having a small, close knit guild is to live somewhere far away from the large cities, in a small to medium size nodes with likeminded small guilds that work together.

So you'll find that both nodes and guilds will have importance, but it might be more fun to some people to play in an environment with less zergs and more node-centred gameplay.

Veeshan

Should honostly have citizen chat and unique icon next to name to reflect citizenship

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

5he fact that so many people are already in the guild they intent to be playing Ashes in, and the notion that nodes are designed to be temporary rather than permanant, and the whole thing really is just a joke.

Just because Steven said it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Well, then don't be surprised when this game doesn't have alot of mass appeal other than the people who have already bought into it and joined guilds.

Most of u join guilds randomly anyways. I don't even want to be in a guild, i just feel like I "have" to.

Changing the game design because a bunch of people created/joined guilds based on their understanding of other game designs is a bad idea.

This is why I am complaining. The whole idea of the Node being more important is part of what drew me to this game. Guild VS Guild being the focus of PVP and group content is lame, boring, tired old game design.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

Do you honestly want a game where the social structure no one has any oversight in regards to membership is the one that takes precedence over the social structure where you can indeed oversee that membership?

This is EXACTLY the point. Everyone gets to go become a citizen of a node, its much more inclusive. Guilds are an exclusive group.

Focusing on guilds will isolate the player base and make new/unaffiliated players feel useless and left out.
Focusing on Nodes will let any player feel involved and part of the world and able to contribute.

I'd much prefer the latter.

Arya_Yeshe

There should definitely be a node chat, as it's essential to recognize your fellow citizens, after all not everyone will be in guilds all the time

Node chat has been needed since Alpha -1; it's crucial for knowing who you can collaborate with and who you can't

You gotta create the sense of node patriotism so you can stick people together with the node goals and sieges

Noaani

Xeeg wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

5he fact that so many people are already in the guild they intent to be playing Ashes in, and the notion that nodes are designed to be temporary rather than permanant, and the whole thing really is just a joke.

Just because Steven said it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Well, then don't be surprised when this game doesn't have alot of mass appeal other than the people who have already bought into it and joined guilds.

I've never assumed this game would have mass appeal.

It is one of the most niche MMO's I've ever seen.

Xeeg wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Do you honestly want a game where the social structure no one has any oversight in regards to membership is the one that takes precedence over the social structure where you can indeed oversee that membership?

This is EXACTLY the point. Everyone gets to go become a citizen of a node, its much more inclusive. Guilds are an exclusive group.

Yes.

And that is why people in guilds will always put the guid first.

The game will get node chat eventually - there should be no doubt about that.

However, the notion that guild will ever be considered less important than node is simply not a factor of game design. It isn't something Steven has control over.

Xeeg

Noaani wrote: »

However, the notion that guild will ever be considered less important than node is simply not a factor of game design. It isn't something Steven has control over.

Well, you have your vision of the game, and I have mine. All i am asking for are the tools to help make the node community strong. They implemented the guild stuff already, so clearly that is their priority.

Aszkalon

Xeeg wrote: »

No Node chat.
No way to tell who is a node citizen.

But instead we get guild tags on our names and dedicated guild chat?

I thought the idea behind this game was that Node Citizenship was supposed to be MORE important than joining some mass spam guild?

Lame

Brutally said.

But You are on to something. I can not feel Citizenship at all. Right now i haven't even seen a Chat with the Name of the Node where oneself is a Citizen at.

I mean, i get it.
This is the most stony, rough Beginning of all time.

But it is noticeable what all is missing. Also must probably be because i play with an English Client and my Motherlanguage is originally German - but i have an incredibly strong Sensation of some Information just passing me by.

What for Example can we be Citizens for aside from paying Taxes ? I know Mayors were elected already but i haven't even got Wind of a single Election. Maybe because i was "to late" when i joined - but i wonder AND DOUBT that i would have been alerted if there was an Election.

Right now everything feels still super-placeholder~ish* .

Noaani

Xeeg wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

However, the notion that guild will ever be considered less important than node is simply not a factor of game design. It isn't something Steven has control over.

Well, you have your vision of the game, and I have mine. All i am asking for are the tools to help make the node community strong. They implemented the guild stuff already, so clearly that is their priority.

Again, they will come.

However, it isn't a "vision for the game" to say that people will prioritize their guild over their node.

I mean, even your arguments go against people putting their node first. If you have a choice between losing your guild or your node, a new node will always be easier to find than a new guild.

The notion that people (note: people, not game design) will put their non-exclusive, easily replaceable, designed to be temporary node over their hand selected, nurtured, permanant guild of often real life friends and family is just ridiculous to even contemplate.

I've been in a guild with one particular guy since 2005. I flew half way around the world to go to his wedding. He has a child named after me. I do not see any way at all that I would put 1000 random people that just happened to decide to make the same node as me their in game home over this guild member.

That is what a real guild is. It is real connections with the people behind the characters. Nodes aren't that. Nodes can never be that. Steven doesn't understand what guilds are because he has never been a part of a real guild. He looks at guilds as being about characters, and what use they are to him in furthering his in game goals (he has said many times that he is essentially a complete dick in games).

I'm hoping the above there will help you in understanding why Steven said what he did, and why he is so wrong about it.

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