Fishing minigame, take from what has already worked.

So in almost any MMO i've played the fishing has always been really boring. FFXIV had some decent fishing but it got really boring really quick and all it was, was something to do kinda like a pokemon version of fishing where you're basically checking off boxes of fish you caught. The mooche system was okay but it was just dealing with RNG mostly. You catch a certain fish and recast it as bait to try and catch a bigger fish and that's it.

Ashes want's to use what has worked in other MMOs like how SWG will probably influence the Animal Husbandry profession but there's nothing I would copy from another MMO for fishing.

My idea would be to go back in time to the NES/SNES days when there were lot's of fishing games on the market. I think these old games can be used as an influence to create a better, more engaging fishing mini game that you don't see in MMOs

Here's a short video review (less than 4 minutes) of Bassin's Black Bass With Hank Parker by SNES Drunk, This one game I think would be the perfect game to influence the fishing in Ashes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWX_wTUZ8S4

devs would probably need to fire up an emulator and play this game though to get the idea of what to use in the game though.

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mainedutch

I'm with a team of people who want fishing to remain incredibly simple.

I think over-gamifying professions too much makes everything more tedious than it needs to be. I want to cast my line, and when I hear a bite, I just want to hit F to reel it in. Simple as that.

That's just my two cents though.

Apok

mainedutch wrote: »

I'm with a team of people who want fishing to remain incredibly simple.

I think over-gamifying professions too much makes everything more tedious than it needs to be. I want to cast my line, and when I hear a bite, I just want to hit F to reel it in. Simple as that.

That's just my two cents though.

That's kinda why I used the SNES era as an example. They even state in the video that like the overhead view isn't realistic because you don't get that in the real world, but it makes it fun. you're also limited to what you could do with the technology at the time which is why I think it makes for a good mini game with today's tech.

the way I see it, keep it simple but also keep in engaging. most MMOs got the simple part down but as for engaging.. it never is.

Azherae

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

Apok

Azherae wrote: »

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

I have yet to play TL so I had to look up the fishing mechanics. My biggest thing here which I should have specified isn't the mini game of reeling in the fish but more so how you go about targeting the fish.

Most games it's go hear stand here cast rod play mini game. the reason why I brought up the SNES game was how it targets certain areas not just bodies of water, the one thing was how you can fish in channels, in the reeds, Lilly pads, etc. while using different lures/bait/time of day settings and maybe even seasons in the world.

I read a couple guides and watched this video here on T&L fishing

https://youtu.be/EndwbfNqVak

From what it looks to me and I might just be totally ignorant here but that body of water is specified as a type of body of water (either rocky clear etc.) meaning no matter where in that body of water you'll catch roughly the same kind of fish every time. Much like how FFXIV does it.

My thing would be that waterfall in the background would have more of or a certain type of fish around it, or have a part of the water with reeds in it which house a different species.

As for the reeling in mechanic what T&L does looks very nice, that would be enough for me it's simple yet engaging and looks really chill.

Azherae

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

I have yet to play TL so I had to look up the fishing mechanics. My biggest thing here which I should have specified isn't the mini game of reeling in the fish but more so how you go about targeting the fish.

Most games it's go hear stand here cast rod play mini game. the reason why I brought up the SNES game was how it targets certain areas not just bodies of water, the one thing was how you can fish in channels, in the reeds, Lilly pads, etc. while using different lures/bait/time of day settings and maybe even seasons in the world.

I read a couple guides and watched this video here on T&L fishing

https://youtu.be/EndwbfNqVak

From what it looks to me and I might just be totally ignorant here but that body of water is specified as a type of body of water (either rocky clear etc.) meaning no matter where in that body of water you'll catch roughly the same kind of fish every time. Much like how FFXIV does it.

My thing would be that waterfall in the background would have more of or a certain type of fish around it, or have a part of the water with reeds in it which house a different species.

As for the reeling in mechanic what T&L does looks very nice, that would be enough for me it's simple yet engaging and looks really chill.

Didn't you play FF11 though?

FF11 doesn't 'tell you what specific type of body of water' it is either, the whole point was to explore, figure it out yourself, talk to other fishers, and get hints from the Fishing Guild NPCs.

Are you saying that you're a person who needs the game to 'hold your hand' and explicitly tell you these things?

I'm the opposite, I like 'needing to fish at a specific spot to learn about the spot', so I don't use things like
https://www.great-blue.jp/?fid=131&lng=en except as a last resort.

So in terms of what I'm trying to convey to Intrepid, I'll try to summarize better:
FF11 fish targeting works like the OP's video.
TL's fish targeting works a little bit like the OP's video and I believe they've said they intend to expand it so I am hoping it becomes more like FF11.
And as noted above, I don't really enjoy 'being told' the differences in fishing area. Indicators like 'this is near a waterfall', 'this water is murky', 'this entire body of water is underground' are enough to make me think of them as different.

Apok

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

I have yet to play TL so I had to look up the fishing mechanics. My biggest thing here which I should have specified isn't the mini game of reeling in the fish but more so how you go about targeting the fish.

Most games it's go hear stand here cast rod play mini game. the reason why I brought up the SNES game was how it targets certain areas not just bodies of water, the one thing was how you can fish in channels, in the reeds, Lilly pads, etc. while using different lures/bait/time of day settings and maybe even seasons in the world.

I read a couple guides and watched this video here on T&L fishing

https://youtu.be/EndwbfNqVak

From what it looks to me and I might just be totally ignorant here but that body of water is specified as a type of body of water (either rocky clear etc.) meaning no matter where in that body of water you'll catch roughly the same kind of fish every time. Much like how FFXIV does it.

My thing would be that waterfall in the background would have more of or a certain type of fish around it, or have a part of the water with reeds in it which house a different species.

As for the reeling in mechanic what T&L does looks very nice, that would be enough for me it's simple yet engaging and looks really chill.

Didn't you play FF11 though?

FF11 doesn't 'tell you what specific type of body of water' it is either, the whole point was to explore, figure it out yourself, talk to other fishers, and get hints from the Fishing Guild NPCs.

Are you saying that you're a person who needs the game to 'hold your hand' and explicitly tell you these things?

I'm the opposite, I like 'needing to fish at a specific spot to learn about the spot', so I don't use things like
https://www.great-blue.jp/?fid=131&lng=en except as a last resort.

So in terms of what I'm trying to convey to Intrepid, I'll try to summarize better:
FF11 fish targeting works like the OP's video.
TL's fish targeting works a little bit like the OP's video and I believe they've said they intend to expand it so I am hoping it becomes more like FF11.
And as noted above, I don't really enjoy 'being told' the differences in fishing area. Indicators like 'this is near a waterfall', 'this water is murky', 'this entire body of water is underground' are enough to make me think of them as different.

My idea was to keep it simple yet grounded in reality to create more immersion and make it slightly harder for people to just target fish from anywhere but at the same time easy enough for anyone to get into.

They already talked about having small boats and ocean fishing, the small boats could easily get you to those lily pad areas or whatever rather then just the run of the mill bank fishing.

The economy is an important factor here too, if anyone can just run up to a body of water and start reeling in the same kind of fish. What value is that fish going to have to other players?

I have a very simple lake by me, there's water a dock and areas with reeds and lily pads. If I bank fish I'm mostly gonna get bass. if I go near the pads I'll get more bluegill if I grab a kayak and go out I'll get trout, it's not that complicated.

Azherae

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

I have yet to play TL so I had to look up the fishing mechanics. My biggest thing here which I should have specified isn't the mini game of reeling in the fish but more so how you go about targeting the fish.

Most games it's go hear stand here cast rod play mini game. the reason why I brought up the SNES game was how it targets certain areas not just bodies of water, the one thing was how you can fish in channels, in the reeds, Lilly pads, etc. while using different lures/bait/time of day settings and maybe even seasons in the world.

I read a couple guides and watched this video here on T&L fishing

https://youtu.be/EndwbfNqVak

From what it looks to me and I might just be totally ignorant here but that body of water is specified as a type of body of water (either rocky clear etc.) meaning no matter where in that body of water you'll catch roughly the same kind of fish every time. Much like how FFXIV does it.

My thing would be that waterfall in the background would have more of or a certain type of fish around it, or have a part of the water with reeds in it which house a different species.

As for the reeling in mechanic what T&L does looks very nice, that would be enough for me it's simple yet engaging and looks really chill.

Didn't you play FF11 though?

FF11 doesn't 'tell you what specific type of body of water' it is either, the whole point was to explore, figure it out yourself, talk to other fishers, and get hints from the Fishing Guild NPCs.

Are you saying that you're a person who needs the game to 'hold your hand' and explicitly tell you these things?

I'm the opposite, I like 'needing to fish at a specific spot to learn about the spot', so I don't use things like
https://www.great-blue.jp/?fid=131&lng=en except as a last resort.

So in terms of what I'm trying to convey to Intrepid, I'll try to summarize better:
FF11 fish targeting works like the OP's video.
TL's fish targeting works a little bit like the OP's video and I believe they've said they intend to expand it so I am hoping it becomes more like FF11.
And as noted above, I don't really enjoy 'being told' the differences in fishing area. Indicators like 'this is near a waterfall', 'this water is murky', 'this entire body of water is underground' are enough to make me think of them as different.

My idea was to keep it simple yet grounded in reality to create more immersion and make it slightly harder for people to just target fish from anywhere but at the same time easy enough for anyone to get into.

They already talked about having small boats and ocean fishing, the small boats could easily get you to those lily pad areas or whatever rather then just the run of the mill bank fishing.

The economy is an important factor here too, if anyone can just run up to a body of water and start reeling in the same kind of fish. What value is that fish going to have to other players?

I have a very simple lake by me, there's water a dock and areas with reeds and lily pads. If I bank fish I'm mostly gonna get bass. if I go near the pads I'll get more bluegill if I grab a kayak and go out I'll get trout, it's not that complicated.

Yeah this is exactly why I don't understand.

FF11 fishing works like that. BDO fishing works like that. TL Fishing works like that. Hell, modded MineCraft fishing works like that.

Did you just not get into the fishing in any of those games?

Sure, FF14 was a small downgrade from FF11 but it was obviously made for a different audience so that they could capture some of the WoW demographic (which worked, I think).

If your concern is that Intrepid will implement the FF14 type of fishing instead of the FF11 type, I agree completely (assuming that Intrepid wants the FF11 type player more than they want the WoW type player).
Some people want the BDO type fishing. I hope we don't get that in Ashes, people can get that in Quinfall if it's ever released.

Apok

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

I have yet to play TL so I had to look up the fishing mechanics. My biggest thing here which I should have specified isn't the mini game of reeling in the fish but more so how you go about targeting the fish.

Most games it's go hear stand here cast rod play mini game. the reason why I brought up the SNES game was how it targets certain areas not just bodies of water, the one thing was how you can fish in channels, in the reeds, Lilly pads, etc. while using different lures/bait/time of day settings and maybe even seasons in the world.

I read a couple guides and watched this video here on T&L fishing

https://youtu.be/EndwbfNqVak

From what it looks to me and I might just be totally ignorant here but that body of water is specified as a type of body of water (either rocky clear etc.) meaning no matter where in that body of water you'll catch roughly the same kind of fish every time. Much like how FFXIV does it.

My thing would be that waterfall in the background would have more of or a certain type of fish around it, or have a part of the water with reeds in it which house a different species.

As for the reeling in mechanic what T&L does looks very nice, that would be enough for me it's simple yet engaging and looks really chill.

Didn't you play FF11 though?

FF11 doesn't 'tell you what specific type of body of water' it is either, the whole point was to explore, figure it out yourself, talk to other fishers, and get hints from the Fishing Guild NPCs.

Are you saying that you're a person who needs the game to 'hold your hand' and explicitly tell you these things?

I'm the opposite, I like 'needing to fish at a specific spot to learn about the spot', so I don't use things like
https://www.great-blue.jp/?fid=131&lng=en except as a last resort.

So in terms of what I'm trying to convey to Intrepid, I'll try to summarize better:
FF11 fish targeting works like the OP's video.
TL's fish targeting works a little bit like the OP's video and I believe they've said they intend to expand it so I am hoping it becomes more like FF11.
And as noted above, I don't really enjoy 'being told' the differences in fishing area. Indicators like 'this is near a waterfall', 'this water is murky', 'this entire body of water is underground' are enough to make me think of them as different.

My idea was to keep it simple yet grounded in reality to create more immersion and make it slightly harder for people to just target fish from anywhere but at the same time easy enough for anyone to get into.

They already talked about having small boats and ocean fishing, the small boats could easily get you to those lily pad areas or whatever rather then just the run of the mill bank fishing.

The economy is an important factor here too, if anyone can just run up to a body of water and start reeling in the same kind of fish. What value is that fish going to have to other players?

I have a very simple lake by me, there's water a dock and areas with reeds and lily pads. If I bank fish I'm mostly gonna get bass. if I go near the pads I'll get more bluegill if I grab a kayak and go out I'll get trout, it's not that complicated.

Yeah this is exactly why I don't understand.

FF11 fishing works like that. BDO fishing works like that. TL Fishing works like that. Hell, modded MineCraft fishing works like that.

Did you just not get into the fishing in any of those games?

Sure, FF14 was a small downgrade from FF11 but it was obviously made for a different audience so that they could capture some of the WoW demographic (which worked, I think).

If your concern is that Intrepid will implement the FF14 type of fishing instead of the FF11 type, I agree completely (assuming that Intrepid wants the FF11 type player more than they want the WoW type player).
Some people want the BDO type fishing. I hope we don't get that in Ashes, people can get that in Quinfall if it's ever released.

I do like what FFXI did with the rods and bait but the fish you catch is still very much zone dependent, where you fish in a body of water doesn't matter you just make sure you're in the right zone and go there and start fishing for the type you want.

Azherae

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Whew, this thread is such a prime example of the state of MMORPGs in general...

I am so thankful to have a game already that gives me so much of what I want, where I don't have to make a big 'argument' for or against any specific fishing system.

Still gotta do the thing though, I guess...

FF11 Fishing
If we compare the video to FF11's later fishing, it's exactly that. People know how to make Fishing games, and MMO devs know how to install SNES-tier fishing games into their fishing. My input here is a matter of understanding. When a person who likes fishing buys a fishing game, the video is a good example of what they are buying that game for. That video is telling you 'what a successful fishing game does', to some extent.

You have a bunch of lures, you go to the right place for the fish based on the lures and the current weather or time of day, you cast your line and wait, you respond to the fish's movement patterns, and you catch the fish. FF11 gives you a bonus when your fishing skill is high, basically simulating the fact that you would automatically be doing it slightly better.

The knowledge part is contained in the bait, though. Basically, if you think it's unrealistic that you can be better at catching a fish you've never 'met' because of catching entirely unrelated fish, that's sorta still in there, because if you don't know the bait, you don't hook enough of them, and also they can control this in a different way by making you risk your lure or bait.

e.g. if you want to catch Lobsters, but you don't know anything about them, you could choose the wrong bait and only snag them about 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 times because other fish bite. You might even get a larger fish that is too high for your level, but you can't 'notice and release it' unless you're familiar with Lobster patterns. Risk vs Reward.

Throne and Liberty Fishing
See above, but they're still working on it. They don't have a ton of Lures yet, and not as much variety in locations. There's also obviously less variety in the fish, because it wouldn't make sense to add the fish before you worked out all the extra details or did more things with their complex weather and time-of-day systems. There's also the other problem of systems like this. All MMOs that use systems with subtle differences, which are designed for like 10% of the playerbase, run into the problem of people who don't poke around long enough to notice all the nuance.

The main point is that it is FF11 fishing experience basis/playloop but with upgrades, and that makes it even closer to the OP's video. You can see the size and a rough shape of your target fish. You still have the FF11 'Large/Medium/Small' distinction in both fish and bait. You do still have some slight control in what you catch (mostly in the ratios, for now) by where you fish, so different people have different preferred fishing spots, and I don't mean just 'Freshwater or Saltwater'. The weather is probably affecting it. Time of day or even pseudo-tides (if this is real, you can check it by watching where Gigantrite is moving to/from).

Obviously I'm saying I enjoy FF11 fishing. And therefore I really enjoy TL fishing and look forward to where it evolves. I do not enjoy afk fishing, I do not enjoy 'wait and snag' fishing without fish patterns (MineCraft, original FF11 implementation) as much, I do not enjoy 'frontloaded complexity' Fishing (BDO normal fish) as much, and I absolutely do not enjoy the economic impact of bad fishing systems.

I won't ask for Ashes to just emulate TL, because I have TL, but it's hard to give an opinion other than 'Hi this is nearly perfect for me so if you want me to fish in your game it should be like this'.

I hope that whatever implementation Ashes uses for fishing, brings its players as much joy as TL's fishing brings me.

I have yet to play TL so I had to look up the fishing mechanics. My biggest thing here which I should have specified isn't the mini game of reeling in the fish but more so how you go about targeting the fish.

Most games it's go hear stand here cast rod play mini game. the reason why I brought up the SNES game was how it targets certain areas not just bodies of water, the one thing was how you can fish in channels, in the reeds, Lilly pads, etc. while using different lures/bait/time of day settings and maybe even seasons in the world.

I read a couple guides and watched this video here on T&L fishing

https://youtu.be/EndwbfNqVak

From what it looks to me and I might just be totally ignorant here but that body of water is specified as a type of body of water (either rocky clear etc.) meaning no matter where in that body of water you'll catch roughly the same kind of fish every time. Much like how FFXIV does it.

My thing would be that waterfall in the background would have more of or a certain type of fish around it, or have a part of the water with reeds in it which house a different species.

As for the reeling in mechanic what T&L does looks very nice, that would be enough for me it's simple yet engaging and looks really chill.

Didn't you play FF11 though?

FF11 doesn't 'tell you what specific type of body of water' it is either, the whole point was to explore, figure it out yourself, talk to other fishers, and get hints from the Fishing Guild NPCs.

Are you saying that you're a person who needs the game to 'hold your hand' and explicitly tell you these things?

I'm the opposite, I like 'needing to fish at a specific spot to learn about the spot', so I don't use things like
https://www.great-blue.jp/?fid=131&lng=en except as a last resort.

So in terms of what I'm trying to convey to Intrepid, I'll try to summarize better:
FF11 fish targeting works like the OP's video.
TL's fish targeting works a little bit like the OP's video and I believe they've said they intend to expand it so I am hoping it becomes more like FF11.
And as noted above, I don't really enjoy 'being told' the differences in fishing area. Indicators like 'this is near a waterfall', 'this water is murky', 'this entire body of water is underground' are enough to make me think of them as different.

My idea was to keep it simple yet grounded in reality to create more immersion and make it slightly harder for people to just target fish from anywhere but at the same time easy enough for anyone to get into.

They already talked about having small boats and ocean fishing, the small boats could easily get you to those lily pad areas or whatever rather then just the run of the mill bank fishing.

The economy is an important factor here too, if anyone can just run up to a body of water and start reeling in the same kind of fish. What value is that fish going to have to other players?

I have a very simple lake by me, there's water a dock and areas with reeds and lily pads. If I bank fish I'm mostly gonna get bass. if I go near the pads I'll get more bluegill if I grab a kayak and go out I'll get trout, it's not that complicated.

Yeah this is exactly why I don't understand.

FF11 fishing works like that. BDO fishing works like that. TL Fishing works like that. Hell, modded MineCraft fishing works like that.

Did you just not get into the fishing in any of those games?

Sure, FF14 was a small downgrade from FF11 but it was obviously made for a different audience so that they could capture some of the WoW demographic (which worked, I think).

If your concern is that Intrepid will implement the FF14 type of fishing instead of the FF11 type, I agree completely (assuming that Intrepid wants the FF11 type player more than they want the WoW type player).
Some people want the BDO type fishing. I hope we don't get that in Ashes, people can get that in Quinfall if it's ever released.

I do like what FFXI did with the rods and bait but the fish you catch is still very much zone dependent, where you fish in a body of water doesn't matter you just make sure you're in the right zone and go there and start fishing for the type you want.

That just tells me you didn't fish enough, mostly.

For anyone who needs to know this, while that is mostly true, probably to avoid massive confusion and frustration for low and mid-level fishers, it's not true overall, especially as you get to higher levels of fishing.

I think that clears up any misunderstanding between you and I though, Apok. You want what FF11 and TL have, and you just thought those games didn't have it (or maybe didn't have enough of it). The specifics don't matter, and neither of us benefits from discussing 'whether or not they have it' so if you don't believe me/agree, I won't fuss about it.

That sort of thing is always a concern of mine when it comes to stuff in MMOs, though. When a rare feature goes unnoticed, it can result in people just thinking it's not in the game or a placebo, but if you make it obvious to notice, then it loses some of its appeal.

Keep at it, fishing system designers of the world! I'll be here measuring water depth and making notes!

Apok

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Fishing

the only time there's anything outside of just being in a zone is if it's ocean vs fresh water fishing or some gimmick like what you have in bibiki bay where you jump on the boat/raft thing. there's no reason to fish different areas of the same body of water because it's all the same. quit trying to justify your easy to bot fishing by pointing your finger at me and saying im lying or misunderstanding.

and I'm sorry I don't play games like BDO and T&L where the only thing the game has going for itself is you can jerk off to your character.

Azherae

Apok wrote: »

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Fishing

the only time there's anything outside of just being in a zone is if it's ocean vs fresh water fishing or some gimmick like what you have in bibiki bay where you jump on the boat/raft thing. there's no reason to fish different areas of the same body of water because it's all the same. quit trying to justify your easy to bot fishing by pointing your finger at me and saying im lying or misunderstanding.

and I'm sorry I don't play games like BDO and T&L where the only thing the game has going for itself is you can jerk off to your character.

Yeah, like I said, I don't have any interest in 'arguing' about the specifics of whether or not the thing I'm talking about exists.

I think you've made it clear what exactly it is you want and that's perfect. I can already see where this is gonna go if I keep talking, given where your mind went. I'm out.

Apok

Azherae wrote: »

Apok wrote: »

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Fishing

the only time there's anything outside of just being in a zone is if it's ocean vs fresh water fishing or some gimmick like what you have in bibiki bay where you jump on the boat/raft thing. there's no reason to fish different areas of the same body of water because it's all the same. quit trying to justify your easy to bot fishing by pointing your finger at me and saying im lying or misunderstanding.

and I'm sorry I don't play games like BDO and T&L where the only thing the game has going for itself is you can jerk off to your character.

Yeah, like I said, I don't have any interest in 'arguing' about the specifics of whether or not the thing I'm talking about exists.

I think you've made it clear what exactly it is you want and that's perfect. I can already see where this is gonna go if I keep talking, given where your mind went. I'm out.

I think you just want systems that are easy to set up bots

Uncommon Sense

I'm all for active fishing i'm also all for active other gathering activities.

Give me that Big Bass/Ocarina of Time type of fishing and I'll keep the baskets and cargo holds full...

loved Bassin's black bass, Sprite games always hold up well.

RedDead Redemption2 fishing is also a good stencil to take inspiration from

But I understand some players like killing time flicking a float (afk)

The main issue with having all gathering on (F) tapping is the viability of bots. With active gathering systems botting becomes less of an issue. I think we can all agree botting is bad.

So have both options but only active fishing can catch Epic to Legendary fish. with all methods having respective catch ratios tuned to the method.

From what I understand there a 3 fishing methods with Net, Rod/line and spear...

I would rationalize that cast net fishing should be the AFK method with the Rod/Line and Spear fishing being solely active methods...

Apok

Uncommon Sense wrote: »

I'm all for active fishing i'm also all for active other gathering activities.

Give me that Big Bass/Ocarina of Time type of fishing and I'll keep the baskets and cargo holds full...

loved Bassin's black bass, Sprite games always hold up well.

RedDead Redemption2 fishing is also a good stencil to take inspiration from

But I understand some players like killing time flicking a float (afk)

The main issue with having all gathering on (F) tapping is the viability of bots. With active gathering systems botting becomes less of an issue. I think we can all agree botting is bad.

So have both options but only active fishing can catch Epic to Legendary fish. with all methods having respective catch ratios tuned to the method.

From what I understand there a 3 fishing methods with Net, Rod/line and spear...

I would rationalize that cast net fishing should be the AFK method with the Rod/Line and Spear fishing being solely active methods...

yeah I just want something that's a little more engaging, so many games cater to people who want everything to be easy mode. like every MMO out there is easy mode compared to how they used to be I don't see why people advocate for the same old systems when you can get the same old systems from so many games out there.

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