Non-direct PvPing

I am okay with PvP on this game and I fully expect to be killed and/or jumped at times while engaged with Mobs. That being said higher-level characters training mobs onto other groups to kill them needs to have some sort of consequence. Just today a level 20 was in highway hills using this method to PvP others that were around level 9 attempting to level without flagging. It was not a one-time occurrence and was very demoralizing to those attempting to playtest. Now I say PvP as they are taking actions that explicitly cause others to suffer penalties, hence referring to it as non-direct pvp.

I foresee that if this type of behavior goes unchecked it will drive others away from the game. Being denied the ability to experience the same content as others for an individual's entertainment. There should be a method where if you have aggro on mobs and they kill players not grouped with you with an x level difference or x players killed within x time, they should flag red instantly. Yes this does not fix the problem, but at least there will be a risk in what some would call griefing.

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Dolyem

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

OP. And if they are high level thats a guild message/global chat away from asking for help. But the question still stands.

You are the type of player that gives real PVP players a bad 🤣

How so? All I am asking is if the griefing players training mobs were actively avoiding flagging for PvP. As you know from another post, I have a theory that seems to be becoming more and more relevant due to players outright avoiding PVP engagements due to extreme corruption penalties.

You appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth as you have also stated in other posts that you hide behind the shield of corruption to 'test' and only take 'smart fights' and that corruption should only protect 'low levels' and yet, you are asking the OP why he/she is not engaging with someone 11 levels higher that is pulling mobs on them? 🤦‍♀️

I am asking if the griefer is avoiding PvP. I asked why not try to engage the griefers. It was more or less just an opening to get answers for my theory. Level difference is a completely feasible reason for not engaging. Doesnt mean you cant find the help of another high level player. And if one did get a higher level player to engage them, I wonder if the player training mobs wouldve utilized corruption as a shield from that player seeing as they are already actively avoiding a PvP engagement.

You literally asked "Why not kill those players?" in your initial post and when I asked who you were addressing, you stated you were addressing the OP.

Please reread my last reply because after you previously stated that the corruption system should protect low levels and admitted that you do not flag, only on occasion to take a 'smart fight', you ask in what might be perceived by some as a condescending manner, why the OP doesn't flag up and attack someone 11 levels higher or call in others when he/she is just literally pointing out an issue with higher level players griefing lower level players by training mobs on them and suggesting a mechanic to help deter this.

Like I have said previously, arguing with you is not productive as you will argue anything, even if it directly contradicts something you said the day before. 🤦‍♀️

You like to hear yourself talk so much that you took it upon yourself to reply to something that wasnt even directed at you. I am here for info, and you seem to be very angry about it.

No, your reply was not addressed to anyone and was vague enough that you could have been asking me (you seem to respond to a lot of my posts) why not kill those players after I had posted some possible mechanics that could deter this type of griefing.

Once you replied and stated your comment was indeed addressed to the OP, it was difficult not to point out the irony in how you admit to hiding behind the corruption shield to avoid any fight you do not deem 'smart' while asking someone 11 levels under a griefer why they did not engage. 🤣

I am sure youre smart enough to tell that by not quoting you in my first comment on this thread, asking a question directly relating to the OPs dilemma you couldve figured out who it was for. You simply felt it was directed at you, or wanted it to be. Either way, no need to blow up this thread with our bickering. I just want data.

Its_Me

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

OP. And if they are high level thats a guild message/global chat away from asking for help. But the question still stands.

You are the type of player that gives real PVP players a bad 🤣

How so? All I am asking is if the griefing players training mobs were actively avoiding flagging for PvP. As you know from another post, I have a theory that seems to be becoming more and more relevant due to players outright avoiding PVP engagements due to extreme corruption penalties.

You appear to be talking out of both sides of your mouth as you have also stated in other posts that you hide behind the shield of corruption to 'test' and only take 'smart fights' and that corruption should only protect 'low levels' and yet, you are asking the OP why he/she is not engaging with someone 11 levels higher that is pulling mobs on them? 🤦‍♀️

I am asking if the griefer is avoiding PvP. I asked why not try to engage the griefers. It was more or less just an opening to get answers for my theory. Level difference is a completely feasible reason for not engaging. Doesnt mean you cant find the help of another high level player. And if one did get a higher level player to engage them, I wonder if the player training mobs wouldve utilized corruption as a shield from that player seeing as they are already actively avoiding a PvP engagement.

You literally asked "Why not kill those players?" in your initial post and when I asked who you were addressing, you stated you were addressing the OP.

Please reread my last reply because after you previously stated that the corruption system should protect low levels and admitted that you do not flag, only on occasion to take a 'smart fight', you ask in what might be perceived by some as a condescending manner, why the OP doesn't flag up and attack someone 11 levels higher or call in others when he/she is just literally pointing out an issue with higher level players griefing lower level players by training mobs on them and suggesting a mechanic to help deter this.

Like I have said previously, arguing with you is not productive as you will argue anything, even if it directly contradicts something you said the day before. 🤦‍♀️

You like to hear yourself talk so much that you took it upon yourself to reply to something that wasnt even directed at you. I am here for info, and you seem to be very angry about it.

No, your reply was not addressed to anyone and was vague enough that you could have been asking me (you seem to respond to a lot of my posts) why not kill those players after I had posted some possible mechanics that could deter this type of griefing.

Once you replied and stated your comment was indeed addressed to the OP, it was difficult not to point out the irony in how you admit to hiding behind the corruption shield to avoid any fight you do not deem 'smart' while asking someone 11 levels under a griefer why they did not engage. 🤣

I am sure youre smart enough to tell that by not quoting you in my first comment on this thread, asking a question directly relating to the OPs dilemma you couldve figured out who it was for. You simply felt it was directed at you, or wanted it to be. Either way, no need to blow up this thread with our bickering. I just want data.

That is the issue, you didnt quote anyone and we have had this same discussion before when you made a post regarding something I said without quoting it or replying to me directly which caused a lot of confusion. So when you make a post asking 'why not kill those players' directly under my post suggesting a 'mechanic' to help deter the griefing, I had to clarify who you were replying to.

Dolyem

@Noaani not to bring you into this pointless discussion, but I am pretty sure I can assume you are talking to OP despite not quoting that entire original post, and not talking to me right?

Its_Me

Dolyem wrote: »

@Noaani not to bring you into this pointless discussion, but I am pretty sure I can assume you are talking to OP despite not quoting that entire original post, and not talking to me right?

Why do you ask, does Noaani have an issue replying to posts 'within' a thread without quoting them or even referencing specific points made like you do? 🤣

There is a reason I did not have to ask Noaani what and who their reply was addressing like I have had to do with you a few times.

What happened to not wanting to blow up this thread with bickering? Oh wait, you contradict most things you say on this forum.

Dolyem

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

@Noaani not to bring you into this pointless discussion, but I am pretty sure I can assume you are talking to OP despite not quoting that entire original post, and not talking to me right?

Why do you ask, does Noaani have an issue replying to posts 'within' a thread without quoting them or even referencing specific points made like you do? 🤣

There is a reason I did not have to ask Noaani what and who their reply was addressing like I have had to do with you a few times.

What happened to not wanting to blow up this thread with bickering? Oh wait, you contradict most things you say on this forum.

You know what, youre absolutely right that we should just stop, I am just going to ignore you. Sorry OP.

Noaani

Dolyem wrote: »

Noaani not to bring you into this pointless discussion, but I am pretty sure I can assume you are talking to OP despite not quoting that entire original post, and not talking to me right?

It was just a general point.

Training mobs in many games is considered a valid skill. Not just by players, but also by developers. There are risks associated with doing it, and there are things people can do to avoid it affecting them.

Every game I've played where it was considered a valid skill (EQ2 and Archeage were fine with it - which makes up 75% of my MMORPG gaming) has had some people consider it griefing - but since there are ways to prevent it, that term doesn't really apply.

To me, calling training griefing is about as accurate as a PvP player in a capture the flag mode complain that the same person was always killing them when they were trying to capture said flag. Sure, being killed over and over by the same player is, but when you add in mitigating factors it ceases to be griefing. In both this case and the case of being trained, there are simple things the player can and should do to avoid it.

Noaani

Its_Me wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Noaani not to bring you into this pointless discussion, but I am pretty sure I can assume you are talking to OP despite not quoting that entire original post, and not talking to me right?

Why do you ask, does Noaani have an issue replying to posts 'within' a thread without quoting them or even referencing specific points made like you do? 🤣

There is a reason I did not have to ask Noaani what and who their reply was addressing like I have had to do with you a few times.

What happened to not wanting to blow up this thread with bickering? Oh wait, you contradict most things you say on this forum.

Dolyem and I have been discussing many topics on these forums for a number of years.

If they want to @ me to clarify something, that's fine.

Its_Me

Noaani wrote: »

Dolyem and I have been discussing many topics on these forums for a number of years.

If they want to @ me to clarify something, that's fine.

I could care less if Dolyem @ s you. You evidently missed the point of the @ or you would have understood my reply to him regarding this.

Noaani

Its_Me wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dolyem and I have been discussing many topics on these forums for a number of years.

If they want to @ me to clarify something, that's fine.

I could care less if Dolyem @ s you. You evidently missed the point of the @ or you would have understood my reply to him regarding this.

No, I can see just fine that you don't know how forums work.

Its_Me

Noaani wrote: »

Its_Me wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dolyem and I have been discussing many topics on these forums for a number of years.

If they want to @ me to clarify something, that's fine.

I could care less if Dolyem @ s you. You evidently missed the point of the @ or you would have understood my reply to him regarding this.

No, I can see just fine that you don't know how forums work.

🤣 I suggest you might not know how sarcasm works.

Its_Me

Noaani wrote: »

Training mobs in many games is considered a valid skill. Every game I've played where it was considered a valid skill (EQ2 and Archeage were fine with it - which makes up 75% of my MMORPG gaming)

That is the point, most games fail and Steven wanted something different which is why one of his main focuses is to prevent both griefing and PKing.

It is Steven's intent to encourage open world PVP where players flag up against one another while also deterring nonconsensual pvp.

If you look at Steven’s definition of PK which is what he has stated he wants to deter, it is a forced attack and kill on a non-combatant player that elects not to engage in fighting.

If Steven’s intent is to minimize both griefing and PKing, I certainly do not believe that he would agree with you that repeatedly training mobs over non-combatants to kill them is a valid skill in Ashes. 😲

In fact, Steven suggests that griefing is when one player impacts another players gameplay in a negative and harassing manner with something that is outside of the expectations of gameplay. As mobs are intended to be encountered and killed and not used by players to repetitively kill noncombatant players to secure a specific grind location, I think this could very well fall under AoC’s griefing definition.

Now, with all of this said, it would be impossible to prevent this sort of griefing with in-game mechanics. There are ways to minimize it such as changing how mobs re-aggro after unleashing (which I would not be surprised if Ashes does), but no way to actually prevent it.

Margaret did present a question to Steven in one interview where she described it as 'this is an exploit people have been asking about' and proceeded to ask the question where someone wanted to know if they would receive corruption if they damage a player but then let a mob they were fighting finish them off. Steven answered no but suggested that they will eventually make it so you cannot see another persons hit points outside your alliance, party, guild or raid group so a player would have no definitive knowledge of another players exact hit point values so when you do something 'sketch like that' where you bring them close to death and let the mob finish them off, you risk overhitting and gaining corruption.

So in a situation of not intentionally training mobs to kill someone but simply engaging someone already fighting a mob, Steven refers to it as sketch and is looking at mechanics to prevent it.

As someone that enjoys and plays games for PVP, I do not like odd mechanics like this as I think it is important on callouts and focusing low health players during group pvp so I am hoping he does not implement this or if he does, it will only apply to non-combatants.

To me, calling training griefing is about as accurate as a PvP player in a capture the flag mode complain that the same person was always killing them when they were trying to capture said flag.

???? One is an actual intended mechanic of the game and the other is not. Your attempt at an analogy is not even close to apples and oranges, it is more like Volkswagens and ginkgo trees. 😲

Noaani

Its_Me wrote: »

One is an actual intended mechanic of the game and the other is not.

Both are intended mechanics.

That is where your entire argument falls down.

Edit to add;

Your comment as to what Steven considers PK'ing is outright incorrect. That description is what it takes to earn corruption in Ashes.

Griefing is defined specifically by Steven as impacting another player's gameplay in a negative and harassing and repetitive manner. You may note the link there so you can check what it is I am saying, since it obviously conflicts with what you think.

So, training mobs in to a player is - by definition - not griefing. Doing it 20 times in a row may be. However, Steven has also said in the past that killing a player 20 times in a row may be considered griefing - it isn't the individual act in either case that is griefing, it is the repetative nature of it.

Yushaodo

bruh .... solution is ..... get fkn gud ..... geez .... ......... jokes aside, solution is... still fkn get gud XD

Its_Me

Noaani wrote: »

One is an actual intended mechanic of the game and the other is not.

Both are intended mechanics.

Mobs are not placed in game for players to drag over other players to skirt around gaining corruption for killing non-combatants so I would argue that this is not an intended mechanic.

As previously mentioned, Steven even referred to players that simply attack someone that is actively engaged in fighting a mob and allowing the mob to kill them as 'sketch' so laughable you feel that someone intentionally dragging a group of mobs to kill a non-combatant to skirt around his mechanic of gaining corruption on a non-combatant PK is one of his 'intended mechanics'. 🤣

Your comment as to what Steven considers PK'ing is outright incorrect. That description is what it takes to earn corruption in Ashes.

It is not incorrect.

Steven has stated that he is attempting to 'significantly' deter nonconsensual pvp and has also stated that his mechanics are based around disincentivizing a griefer AND PKer.

Although PK just means player kill to many of us, Steven has repeatedly, in both print and interviews, referred to PK as a negative action that he wants to deter and the reference is always regarding the forced attack and killing of a non-combatant that will result in player corruption. Steven refers to combat between two combatants as PVP and the forced attack and killing of a non-combatant as a PK which he has repeatedly stated he wants to deter. As you seem to like the AoC wiki pages, I will attach a couple screen prints from this.

Griefing is defined specifically by Steven as impacting another player's gameplay in a negative and harassing and repetitive manner. You may note the link there so you can check what it is I am saying, since it obviously conflicts with what you think.

??? You provide a link supporting exactly what I stated and suggest that I am incorrect??? Odd strategy

Here is my exact statement verbatim: "Steven suggests that griefing is when one player impacts another players gameplay in a negative and harassing manner with something that is outside of the expectations of gameplay. As mobs are intended to be encountered and killed and not used by players to repetitively kill noncombatant players to secure a specific grind location, I think this could very well fall under AoC’s griefing definition."

Noaani

Its_Me wrote: »

Here is my exact statement verbatim: "Steven suggests that griefing is when one player impacts another players gameplay in a negative and harassing manner with something that is outside of the expectations of gameplay. As mobs are intended to be encountered and killed and not used by players to repetitively kill noncombatant players to secure a specific grind location, I think this could very well fall under AoC’s griefing definition."

Yes, that is indeed your statement.

But it is still wrong.

If someone is being killed repeatidly by mobs being trained on to them, then they should learn how to deal with that situation rather than just die to it again and again. If you are dying to it, you are actually dying to your own lack of ability, or lack of knowledge about the game. If you were good, you would use that mob train and send it straight back to the people that started it.

That is why it isn't griefing. it isn't unexpected (it happens in many MMORPG's - you should expect it, it is on you if it isn't), and there are steps a player can take to prevent it.

As to your wiki quotes, you should probably do more "research" than just reading the wiki. Pulling a quote when Steven is talking about why he doesn't want to add nodes for corrupt players in to this conversation is pointless - other than as something to point at to illustrate to you perhaps why you are so wrong here.

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