"Professions are not for everyone"

I gotta say I really hate this take. Whenever I complain about the professions people say "The idea is that the professions are not for everyone".

What they mean by that is that the professions are purposefully made convoluted and monotonous IN ORDER to disincentivize players from engaging in the system. Only the most elite people will bother wasting their lives trying to "discover" how to use them...

This is probably the stupidest idea for a game I ever heard. Might as well make a game called, "Lets stab ourselves in the face!" - Look, no one else is doing it! Aren't we so elite?!?! Hey how come this game has a hard time getting new players? Bunch of crybabies, we don't want them anyways!

Games are supposed to be fun. Activities in games are supposed to be fun. Gathering should be fun, so should processing and crafting. In fact, all of the systems in the game should be so fun that it is hard to decide what you want to do. Not, "I'm only doing this stupid activity to get X result". That shit is lame as hell.

They managed to do a good job in the class design and fighting styles. I love my bard. IT IS FUN!

Please continue to iterate on the professions and find some way to make them pleasing and appealing. Right now its like we are being given a bowl of raw carrots for dinner.

Yes, it's alpha 2. So... cook this shit.

Or is the "professions are supposed to suck" design idea going to last to launch?

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Xeeg

Azherae wrote: »

There must be a point in ANY profession where a player goes 'this isn't for me, I'm bored/annoyed' and stops. If this doesn't happen, then the economic velocity grinds to a halt just as much (if not more) than the situation where absolutely no one is enjoying anything.

You know, part of the problem was that I felt like i needed to straight grind that profession in order for it to be of any use. This might be a "me" problem, or it might be an ashes problem.

Now that I understand the systems a little better, I've been able to find some satisfying gameplay loops.

For example, this morning I would grind some mobs with a random group until I get enough glint to run a 1g caravan, then chop trees on my way home until i get about 150 wood or so, then stop off at home and set up the lumbermilling, trade the glint in for a caravan run, drive to the next node and get cash, then go grind mobs for a bit for more glint/repeat.

This way none of the activities are too monotonous and now I am getting some synergies going on and feeling pretty good about it actually. Getting gold, exp and progressing my professions.

Not sure if i am optimally progressing in anything, but at least im having fun. =D

Ludullu

Xeeg wrote: »

Not sure if i am optimally progressing in anything, but at least im having fun. =D

Which is the entire point.

There's already a ton of stuff to do in the game, so it's up to players to figure what they want to do with their time. Artisan enjoyers can just spend hours grinding their profession, while casual artisans can just throw in a bit of profession gameplay here and there.

CROW3

Xeeg wrote: »

Now that I understand the systems a little better, I've been able to find some satisfying gameplay loops.

Awesome!

Noaani

Smaashley wrote: »

Honestly, for the caravan problem, people shouldn't be able to participate in the caravan event if they are more than x levels of the player running the caravan. Where is the risk for the attacker if they are 10-15 levels higher than the other player ?

This then means the meta for running caravans when the game goes live would be to do so on the lowest level character you can.

As more people level up, running on a low level character means you have less people capable of attacking you. Since fast travel is t really a thing, the only people that are likely to struck you are those that are already along the route - minimizing that number due to the above would easily be the safest way to run a caravan.

That said, with Intrepids recent decisions, I wouldn't be surprised.

Rinta

Xeeg wrote: »

I don't know what to say exactly, but here was my experience: .....

This was a really good write-up explaining your experience step by step and your reaction to this experience. If I was making a game - this is exactly the kind of detailed feedback I'd want.

Azherae

Xeeg wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

There must be a point in ANY profession where a player goes 'this isn't for me, I'm bored/annoyed' and stops. If this doesn't happen, then the economic velocity grinds to a halt just as much (if not more) than the situation where absolutely no one is enjoying anything.

You know, part of the problem was that I felt like i needed to straight grind that profession in order for it to be of any use. This might be a "me" problem, or it might be an ashes problem.

Now that I understand the systems a little better, I've been able to find some satisfying gameplay loops.

For example, this morning I would grind some mobs with a random group until I get enough glint to run a 1g caravan, then chop trees on my way home until i get about 150 wood or so, then stop off at home and set up the lumbermilling, trade the glint in for a caravan run, drive to the next node and get cash, then go grind mobs for a bit for more glint/repeat.

This way none of the activities are too monotonous and now I am getting some synergies going on and feeling pretty good about it actually. Getting gold, exp and progressing my professions.

Not sure if i am optimally progressing in anything, but at least im having fun. =D

Thanks, noting this helps me too (because it's hard for me to know if only my own group has these changes in experience when 'pushed' or if it is more general, and I've learned that it's really specific per game, so I have to 'restart the count' for every new game).

RocketFarmer

These artisan features are only in game now to provide a flavor. So all you can comment on is the grind related to an isolated system.

Have to get player stalls in the game for a little more efficient trading compared to chat. Coming in phase 2, so we’ll see how that small change alters the experience. Also will need to see how it works because I seriously doubt these stalls are “free”, and there may in fact be a limit similar to the freehold concept where early on people were thinking everyone would get a free hold.

Have to get markets in the game for more efficiency compared to player stalls.

Have to remove gear drops from the game to drive demand. The drops will be the recipes to get the artisans to gather, process and craft the gear. If they move toward material cert drops, then you can also exchange those to help in the crafting process. I think for now they have opted for glint, so I don’t know if that’s a temporary thing or a permanent design change. Glint however does apply to commodities, which is a whole other system tied to caravans, and provides a higher risk, higher reward opportunity. I think they see systems in place to get more collaboration between gamers who like to go fight people/monsters and take stuff and those more economically inclined. That system also provides player to player friction so that this isn’t just a big market simulation game.

The game has built in specialization so expecting your PC to craft that awesome item isn’t that reasonable without a connected economy. Right away at the apprentice level you go from knowing all of the artisan skills to a limit of 5. If you want to craft high end gear then you’ll definitely have to earn it and either have a network of suppliers or an active market. I think a network of suppliers may be more efficient, which is why trade guilds will be a thing (already kind of are).

Many are already feeling the pain at artisan crafting, where it’s taking around 2-3 apprentice gatherers, 2-3 apprentice processors and 1 apprentice crafter to produce that item you are after. So with the 5 apprentice skill max you might be very good being a solo crafter of a very small subset of tier 2 items.

Gathering is generally the easiest to level in that it’s resource dependent with lumberjacking being easiest at hunting most time consuming. Mining is a pain because it seems like everything you run into is a tier 3 resource because we don’t have journeyman gathering. If I had a nickel for every iron node I ran across…. BTW, we’re starting to get better at distinguishing copper from iron at a distance at night while monitoring chat and avoiding mobs.

Go into processing and you need an extra 11 resources for every 10 you wish to process plus fuel costs (1 oak for every 10). Those extra resources pay for the processing rather than just selling the resources. If you want to maintain a steady cash stream rather than have your wealth whittled to nothing because right now you are reliant on selling your processed items to vendors. Another way of thinking about it is that the ratio of a resource to a processed resource is 2.2 to 1. A little more than a doubling if you don’t want the difference to come from your coin purse. Takes a little longer, but you don’t go broke trying to level processing.

Getting to crafting, those ratios double to triple. I haven’t done all of the math related to the crafting side, but with each recipe relying on 2-3 processed goods, it would seem to have at least a 2 to 1 ratio, plus the crafting cost. So the ratio from raw materials to crafted good is in the neighborhood 5 to 1 minimum.

Once you get to those apprentice levels, you can bring that down to a simple collection to produce items you can sell. That’s all just for common items, getting into rarities and you start to really grind. Best bet is to retain all of the resources from rare to legendary, and focus artisan leveling on common to uncommon resources . I know there’s a temptation to chase the best gear right away, but in the process you may end up sacrificing a higher level rarity to make something “good enough”.

AoC is a niche MMORPG with very niche features and systems that allow you to do your thing, but not everything (without a heavy time sink). Unless you want to keep your characters at Novice level and supplier the economy with tier 1 items. The higher you go the more specialized and hence the more cooperative the game becomes.

nanfoodle

Xeeg wrote: »

I gotta say I really hate this take. Whenever I complain about the professions people say this "The idea is that the professions are not for everyone".

What they mean by that is that the professions are purposefully made convoluted and monotonous IN ORDER to disincentivize players from engaging in the system. Only the most elite people will bother wasting their lives trying to "discover" how to use them...

This is probably the stupidest idea for a game I ever heard. Might as well make a game called, "Lets stab ourselves in the face!" - Look, no one else is doing it! Aren't we so elite?!?! Hey how come this game has a hard time getting new players? Bunch of crybabies, we don't want them anyways!

Games are supposed to be fun. Activities in games are supposed to be fun. Gathering should be fun, so should processing and crafting. In fact, all of the systems in the game should be so fun that it is hard to decide what you want to do. Not, "I'm only doing this stupid activity to get X result". That shit is lame as hell.

They managed to do a good job in the class design and fighting styles. I love my bard. IT IS FUN!

Please continue to iterate on the professions and find some way to make them pleasing and appealing. Right now its like we are being given a bowl of raw carrots for dinner.

Yes, it's alpha 2. So... cook this shit.

Or is the "professions are supposed to suck" design idea going to last to launch?

Ya I don't enjoy the crafting and I want to. It's not intuitive. It's convoluted to figure out. Overly clicky. There needs to be way less steps to refine. Getting every crafting types work stations needs to be more available.

By level 3 nod we should have access to all crafting stations. Not being able to do your trade of choice. You should not be hindered because you just can't access a station. That's not fun. I get not being to access high level stations are not needed, but I should be able to craft level 1 to 10 gear.

Want to end this with my thanks. Loving this game very much, keep up the great work.

Azherae

nanfoodle wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

I gotta say I really hate this take. Whenever I complain about the professions people say this "The idea is that the professions are not for everyone".

What they mean by that is that the professions are purposefully made convoluted and monotonous IN ORDER to disincentivize players from engaging in the system. Only the most elite people will bother wasting their lives trying to "discover" how to use them...

This is probably the stupidest idea for a game I ever heard. Might as well make a game called, "Lets stab ourselves in the face!" - Look, no one else is doing it! Aren't we so elite?!?! Hey how come this game has a hard time getting new players? Bunch of crybabies, we don't want them anyways!

Games are supposed to be fun. Activities in games are supposed to be fun. Gathering should be fun, so should processing and crafting. In fact, all of the systems in the game should be so fun that it is hard to decide what you want to do. Not, "I'm only doing this stupid activity to get X result". That shit is lame as hell.

They managed to do a good job in the class design and fighting styles. I love my bard. IT IS FUN!

Please continue to iterate on the professions and find some way to make them pleasing and appealing. Right now its like we are being given a bowl of raw carrots for dinner.

Yes, it's alpha 2. So... cook this shit.

Or is the "professions are supposed to suck" design idea going to last to launch?

Ya I don't enjoy the crafting and I want to. It's not intuitive. It's convoluted to figure out. Overly clicky. There needs to be way less steps to refine. Getting every crafting types work stations needs to be more available.

By level 3 nod we should have access to all crafting stations. Not being able to do your trade of choice. You should not be hindered because you just can't access a station. That's not fun. I get not being to access high level stations are not needed, but I should be able to craft level 1 to 10 gear.

Want to end this with my thanks. Loving this game very much, keep up the great work.

Two things:

1. What's 'overly clicky'? How would you even do any less clicks for this?

2. What crafting stations is a level 3 node actually lacking? I haven't noticed this as much, but if there was one missing I'm not sure I'd think of it just running around.

Ludullu

Also, I'm fairly sure we can craft 1-10lvl stuff even before we get to lvl3 nodes, cause we've got the neutral stations in the spots around lionhold.

CROW3

Azherae wrote: »

1. What's 'overly clicky'? How would you even do any less clicks for this?

Here's an example from processing. Let's say I just returned from slicing up the woods with 43 regular oak, 18 rare oak, 9 heroic, and 1 legendary:

As is, there are 5 clicks to send something through a process queue (material tier drop down (1), quantity drop down (1) , and fuel selection (2 w/shift right click), and 1 click to execute).

So for the mats above here's the flow:
- 25 reg oak (5 clicks)
- 10 reg oak (5 clicks)
- 5 reg oak (5 clicks)
- 1 reg oak x3 (15 clicks)
- 10 rare oak (5 clicks)
- 5 rare oak (5 clicks)
- 1 rare oak x3 (15 clicks)
- 5 heroic oak (5 clicks)
- 1 heroic oak x4 (20 clicks)
- 1 legendary oak (5 clicks)

Total: 85 clicks

One suggested alternative is right click stacks from my inventory by tier (1 click), which then create the quantity for processing. Then select fuel (2 clicks), then execute (1 click)
- 43 reg oak (4 clicks)
- 18 rare oak (4 clicks)
- 9 heroic oak (4 clicks)
- 1 legendary oak (4 clicks)

Total clicks: 16

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

Total clicks: 16

Yeah, we definitely need custom amounts for processing and both them and fuel should be automatically added, according to our preset preferences.

2 Clicks should be enough. 1 inventory, 1 execute. Maaaaybe 3, if we want an "are you sure" window.

Azherae

Would you believe I zoned out on having to do all that?

This is why counting on people like me to tell you what's wrong with the moment-to-moment aspects of systems is a bad idea. Thanks for that reminder.

CROW3

Azherae wrote: »

Would you believe I zoned out on having to do all that?

This is why counting on people like me to tell you what's wrong with the moment-to-moment aspects of systems is a bad idea. Thanks for that reminder.

Ha! Takes a village (literally in Ashes). 🤗

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Would you believe I zoned out on having to do all that?

This is why counting on people like me to tell you what's wrong with the moment-to-moment aspects of systems is a bad idea. Thanks for that reminder.

If you've crafted at even a semi-big scale, please tell me you at least didn't zone out on the crafting clickability CAUSE OOOOHHHH BOIIII. Leveling carpentry was an utter pain, making several hundred crates by constantly going "click fuel, shift+click the wood, click craft, wait a few seconds (that is if it doesn't bug and you gotta reclick craft), rinse, repeat".

It was paaaain. Imo no damn reason for the wait and fuel definitely should be automated. I'm used to just spam-clicking the craft button in L2, cause you simply need to have the mats on you and there's no wait on the crafting process itself.

CROW3

Ludullu wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Would you believe I zoned out on having to do all that?

This is why counting on people like me to tell you what's wrong with the moment-to-moment aspects of systems is a bad idea. Thanks for that reminder.

If you've crafted at even a semi-big scale, please tell me you at least didn't zone out on the crafting clickability CAUSE OOOOHHHH BOIIII. Leveling carpentry was an utter pain, making several hundred crates by constantly going "click fuel, shift+click the wood, click craft, wait a few seconds (that is if it doesn't bug and you gotta reclick craft), rinse, repeat".

It was paaaain. Imo no damn reason for the wait and fuel definitely shold be automated. I'm used to just spam-clicking the craft button in L2, cause you simply need to have the mats on you and there's no wait on the crafting process itself.

Srsly, so many crates. Again if I have 500 oak timber I want to use for 100 crates - the UI can be MUCH easier.

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Would you believe I zoned out on having to do all that?

This is why counting on people like me to tell you what's wrong with the moment-to-moment aspects of systems is a bad idea. Thanks for that reminder.

If you've crafted at even a semi-big scale, please tell me you at least didn't zone out on the crafting clickability CAUSE OOOOHHHH BOIIII. Leveling carpentry was an utter pain, making several hundred crates by constantly going "click fuel, shift+click the wood, click craft, wait a few seconds (that is if it doesn't bug and you gotta reclick craft), rinse, repeat".

It was paaaain. Imo no damn reason for the wait and fuel definitely should be automated. I'm used to just spam-clicking the craft button in L2, cause you simply need to have the mats on you and there's no wait on the crafting process itself.

I have fighting gamer brain tho...

I'm literally hardwired to 'zone out and start thinking about something else when doing a physical repetition with a visually trackable progress condition'.

I haven't done large scale crafting, but based on my other knowledge of myself, I bet it would be the same (this is the thing that made me literally worry about being flagged as a bot when I'm just playing normally, my mechanical consistency has been honed to some 'interesting' levels over the years).

The same thing's gonna happen for the combat system, but fortunately I have 5 other people who are more likely to complain and remind me, for that.

nanfoodle

CROW3 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

1. What's 'overly clicky'? How would you even do any less clicks for this?

Here's an example from processing. Let's say I just returned from slicing up the woods with 43 regular oak, 18 rare oak, 9 heroic, and 1 legendary:

As is, there are 5 clicks to send something through a process queue (material tier drop down (1), quantity drop down (1) , and fuel selection (2 w/shift right click), and 1 click to execute).

So for the mats above here's the flow:
- 25 reg oak (5 clicks)
- 10 reg oak (5 clicks)
- 5 reg oak (5 clicks)
- 1 reg oak x3 (15 clicks)
- 10 rare oak (5 clicks)
- 5 rare oak (5 clicks)
- 1 rare oak x3 (15 clicks)
- 5 heroic oak (5 clicks)
- 1 heroic oak x4 (20 clicks)
- 1 legendary oak (5 clicks)

Total: 85 clicks

One suggested alternative is right click stacks from my inventory by tier (1 click), which then create the quantity for processing. Then select fuel (2 clicks), then execute (1 click)
- 43 reg oak (4 clicks)
- 18 rare oak (4 clicks)
- 9 heroic oak (4 clicks)
- 1 legendary oak (4 clicks)

Total clicks: 16

= not fun. For a game that's so fun how is crafting so far from the mark.

tinukeda

I would have expected a little more ArcheAge influence on the crafting system given the influences of the game.
And the Folio! lord give us a Folio in Ashes!

Andi

The fact that some people are arguing for a boring game baffles my mind.

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