Gear Scaling does not feel good

Seeing the dup items shows the scaling between common, Uncommon and Legendary items.

Common Bow - 99-134 damage
Uncommon Bow - 140-187 Damage
Legendary Bow - 481-634 Damage
(these are all level 10 bows)

From Common to Legendary thats 4.7 x more powerful on a level 10 bow. That is way outside realm of skill mattering in a PvP fight. Gear should never be an advantage of more then 50%. IMO from common to Legendary you should not have more then a 30% boost. PvP feels best when you can still kill a top gear char still with skill. With a 4.7 x gear jump. Thats just not going to happen. In game now Carphin geared players are 1 and 2 shooting people of the same level even vs the the same class of the same level.

What are your thoughts?

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Veeshan

Also you guys are looking at it wrong either you havant done artisan skills so dont know but anythign below heroic is irrelevant
With the exception of animal carcasses (and t1 tree im guess due to abundance they get lower drop rate) which seem to be a bug atm your base line crafting gonna be blue quality materials since they are plentiful resource types (White and green trash and are basicly for grinding levels basicly) if your wearing crafting armor your minimum crafting quality for blue resources is almost always heroic quality so this will be your low quality crafted gear, Epic will be your normal quality and legendary takes a bit more work to hit and your high quality.
the difference beteen heroic and legendary is also quite reasonable so i think it find TTK might need to be worked on overall however but thats a different matter

TiberiusTheron

nanfoodle wrote: »

ShivaFang wrote: »

Gear is supposed to be 50% of player power.
It's currently 95% of player power.

I rather PvP and PvE be more tuned to skill over gear. I would like to see it no higher then 30%.

Complete agree. 70% Player Power, 30% Gear Power

nanfoodle

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

ShivaFang wrote: »

Gear is supposed to be 50% of player power.
It's currently 95% of player power.

I rather PvP and PvE be more tuned to skill over gear. I would like to see it no higher then 30%.

Complete agree. 70% Player Power, 30% Gear Power

IMO skill should be the majority of what wins PvP battles. Some PvP games you don't even get a boost with gear. Just another option for combat style.

truelyyy

Hello: here is a video clip of someone discussing some of the major issues people come across when people start getting better gear:

2mins 20seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ioLc-Gsik&ab_channel=AshesMoments

Issue 1) It's pretty easy in a guild to get full legendary level 10 gear. The issue comes from the fact that if a crafter has high end crafting gear, the gear quality increase is so high someone can use rare materials and craft legendary gear.

Solution: reduce the quality stats on the artisan gear for crafting and anything else that may increase gear quality , maybe a 66% reduction of what it currently is for each rarity of gear (you can test the numbers)

Issue 2) The power creep of high end gear is too high. I believe it is currently a 30% overall increase from the previous tier.

Solution: Reduce the increase in power per tier to 10% per tier, which is a 66% reduction from what it is currently.

Issue 3) Even with the reduction in increases in power per tier, the TTK gets lower and lower the better the gear gets which creates shorter PvP.

Solution: the damage stats give too much penetration per point meaning the mitigation isn't high enough as most of it is ignored through penetration%. I would lower the ratio of penetration per point. For example for mage this stat is int which gives magical power and penetration, I believe the ratio of penetration per intelligence needs to be lowered maybe by about 33%. Same should be done for strength.

Also adding some more base HP per level I think maybe be a good idea, using a multiplier multiplied by the level obtained. For example using a base multiplier of 3, say you level from 19 to 20, 3(base multiplier) x 20 (level obtained) = 60hp increase. From levels 2-25, the total HP increase would be 972 HP using a base multiplier of 3 using this system.

truelyyy

bump

SmileGurney

Squashing the insane offensive power boost coming from gear rarity is far more reasonable. Base HP increase, maybe, defensive stat increase is another option, but those don't address the gear power gap.

From what I remember the power scaling on defensive stats is smaller than offensive, which is probably part of the problem. Even without the current silly state of gear scaling Time To Kill in the game is really low for an MMO.

Blazzen

Agreed.

There are videos of people in level 10 legendary gear, 3 people, killing a level 25 raid boss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=nnLYjU1RTgE-YBwU&t=565&v=7-Ct9AgFTaI&feature=youtu.be

Also lots of videos where people are 1 shotting others in PVP.
https://www.twitch.tv/constantineaoc/clip/BlatantAltruisticPigeonMVGame-6VqgSJ1xAX-lMPCR

TiberiusTheron

Blazzen wrote: »

Agreed.

There are videos of people in level 10 legendary gear, 3 people, killing a level 25 raid boss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=nnLYjU1RTgE-YBwU&t=565&v=7-Ct9AgFTaI&feature=youtu.be

Also lots of videos where people are 1 shotting others in PVP.
https://www.twitch.tv/constantineaoc/clip/BlatantAltruisticPigeonMVGame-6VqgSJ1xAX-lMPCR

Absolutely, this needs to be dealt with immediately. Steven has to understand that issues like this can ruin an MMO before it's even launched. Honestly, after seeing this, I'm now completely against allowing crafters to create the best gear in the game.

TiberiusTheron

This shouldn't be happening. Gear and weapon scaling need to be reduced significantly and made much rarer. Otherwise, every zerg will be nearly impossible to kill, and the game could be in trouble before it even launches. The balance should focus on 70% player skill and 30% gear. The power increase per tier should be capped at 10%, with a maximum of 50% at the highest tier. Right now, it's just broken and doesn't make sense.

TiberiusTheron

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

Broken storage, gear power scaling and easily exploitable bosses (for "easy" legendary drops etc) are on the top of my priority list for pre-phase 2 bug fixes. This stuff breaks economy and the little fun you can have in the current pvp. Gear power scaling turns pvp into a comedy show atm.

Yea, the current system is fundamentally broken to a point it's demoralizing.

Gizban

nanfoodle wrote: »

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

ShivaFang wrote: »

Gear is supposed to be 50% of player power.
It's currently 95% of player power.

I rather PvP and PvE be more tuned to skill over gear. I would like to see it no higher then 30%.

Complete agree. 70% Player Power, 30% Gear Power

IMO skill should be the majority of what wins PvP battles. Some PvP games you don't even get a boost with gear. Just another option for combat style.

Not a pvp game.

Shadow Phoenix

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

In my opinion, crafted gear shouldn't exceed world-dropped gear by more than 10% in effectiveness.

It has been said MULTIPLE times that crafted gear will be the best. Your argument that it should be only 10% better is in line with the statement, though I would still expect it to be more than that 10% you're hoping for.

Kiwi_

Hello there,

I am mainly writing this post because I personally think the most important things about the gear scaling discussion are drowning in all the frustration that the legendary gear is causing, which I think it understandable but I also hope it won't lead to the actual issues (personal opinion) being forgotten about.
Feel free to discuss, agree or disagree or maybe add something that I forgot myself!

Balancing of gear stats

So first of all - right now we're still in an Alpha, very unpolished, mainly focused on testing if performace and systems work at all. At this state from what I feel, all numbers are placeholders and subject to change anyways. Does this mean criticism on scaling is not important? No, I don't think so, I personally think all feedback on all systems is important, however, frustration about numbers that can be changed at any time and demanding for balancing to happen immediately while the game is far from being finished is not really pointing out the things that are actually causing the frustration.

What I think should be the feedback on balancing for gear etc

Considering all numbers are subject to change at any given time I would personally focus on the bigger picture of issues that the numbers are causing instead of the individual numbers themselves.
So my feedback points would be:

- Artisan crafting bonuses should not make legendary items be craftable like it was common gear
This goes hand in hand with the second point

- Legendary gear should be harder to aquire, right now it does not feel special
If the systems were to be kept the way that they are right now, legendary gear would be way too easy to aquire, as you can currently get to full legendary gear within one day if you get the artisan gear for it. And I personally feel the highest rarity in the game (Artifact left aside) should be really hard to get at any stage of the game, whether it's level 10 or level 50, novice or grandmaster.

- Small groups should never be able to kill World/Raid Bosses
At least not the way it currently is. I feel like bosses that are designed to be done by a raid group should be so strong that they can't be done in smaller groups, even if they have really good gear and are playing well. For example with Firebrand, if it was a small group of Level 50 players killing him, that'd be a different thing, but I think a small group should never be able to kill a world/raid boss of the same level range that they're in. Similar to the gear progression for me this defeats the feeling of the boss being something special/hard to achieve.

- Player power
Here's a quote on what the official plan was for player power and gear:

Q: Could you explain in detail what you mean by 50% of player power when talking about gear influence on player power?
A: That's just a general allocation of what players can expect to pursue when enhancing their player character power. Now obviously, the distribution and ratio of those types of influences, whether it be itemization, whether it be level, whether it be, augments choices, and/or skill tree choices: those influences and ratios change through the leveling curve. So, at lower levels your character level is going to be more influential over character power than itemization will be, but at endgame or higher levels, or at the end of the adventuring level progression, that's when itemization really gets an emphasis for its ratio of player power. – Steven Sharif (2023)

Hope this is still the plan, as currently my gear makes for ~80% of my damage and healing if not more.

- Current numbers are making the griefing issues worse
With how the gear scaling is atm, I personally feel like a lot of the frustration is coming from griefers and players that have been abusing systems to get even more ahead and grief even more. I know there has been done a little bit on the US servers but the EU servers seem to simply be ignored. Players that have been at lvl 25 for weeks now, done all the content they could've done by now, are griefing low level players simply because they're bored. And with the current gear scaling there is even less that lvl10s can do against them.

I personally don't mind the numbers for gear etc being off atm as it's an alpha and it's for testing anyways, and with the gear I have now I get to explore and test a lot more freely, while on the other hand it's not really representative of how the gameplay should be in the end I guess?
I feel like balancing stuff 2 weekends b4 the wipe would be a waste of resources. So all I hope is for item rarity, gear progression and content difficulty to be scaled well for the finished game.
What are your thoughts?

truelyyy

Bump

Veeshan

OK first when it comes to gear scaling only 3 quality matter heroic, Epic and legendary the reason for this these are gonna be the common crafted gear from crafters since blue material are abundant (wuth exceptuion of hunting but i think thats due too a bug) and when u craft with blue materials your basicly garanteed to proc to Heroic so this is basicly the base line gear level that is easy obtainable.
The game is spose 2 be crafting based and the mob dropped greens/blues are just filler till you get crafted sets.
In regards with legendary items apparently there a quality above that called artifact so thats your hard to get gear i would say.

I do agree time to kill is to high and thats across all gear levels and tbh dmg/healing should be reduce by like 40% across the board

Veeshan

tbh there only 4 gear quality
1 Trash mob drops
2 heroic which wil be lowest stuff crafted since it just take blue mats and there abundant
3 Epic Mid range crafted stuff
4 Higher end crafted stuff

Game designed around crafting economy and mobs drops are just a stepping stone to crafted gear, aslong as heroic/epic and legendary is decent with scaling then were fine imo which i think the difference between those quality are actualy quite good

TTK is way to short across the board however and dmg and healing output definetly need like a 40% reduction for all gear qualities.

In WoW terms
Greens = grey item
Rare = Green item
yellow = Blue item
purple = purple
orange = Orange
There there might be a mythical red colour called artifact aswell

TiberiusTheron

Shadow Phoenix wrote: »

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

In my opinion, crafted gear shouldn't exceed world-dropped gear by more than 10% in effectiveness.

It has been said MULTIPLE times that crafted gear will be the best. Your argument that it should be only 10% better is in line with the statement, though I would still expect it to be more than that 10% you're hoping for.

Things often change during a game's development cycle, so it's unwise to take every word from a developer as final. Most of the time, these details evolve. What you're advocating for is an extremely flawed mechanic that could ruin the game before it even launches. Additionally, making crafted gear significantly better than gear obtained from the world, dungeons, or raids renders that content almost entirely irrelevant.

Shadow Phoenix

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

What you're advocating for is an extremely flawed mechanic that could ruin the game before it even launches. Additionally, making crafted gear significantly better than gear obtained from the world, dungeons, or raids renders that content almost entirely irrelevant.

Not if, as has been stated, you need to run those dungeons, raids, etc. to get the materials to drop to craft said gear.

Veeshan

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

Shadow Phoenix wrote: »

TiberiusTheron wrote: »

In my opinion, crafted gear shouldn't exceed world-dropped gear by more than 10% in effectiveness.

It has been said MULTIPLE times that crafted gear will be the best. Your argument that it should be only 10% better is in line with the statement, though I would still expect it to be more than that 10% you're hoping for.

Things often change during a game's development cycle, so it's unwise to take every word from a developer as final. Most of the time, these details evolve. What you're advocating for is an extremely flawed mechanic that could ruin the game before it even launches. Additionally, making crafted gear significantly better than gear obtained from the world, dungeons, or raids renders that content almost entirely irrelevant.

its not irrelevant
Mobs are for the following Glint for gold, Recipes for crafters, Craftable for making the items (forsaken seals for example, Named mobs for unique recipes along with the unique item to craft the item.
Recipe drops are quite rare and thats ur goal for the named mobs to be fair and then u need to farm them regularly to get the unique craftable ingredient to make them this include world bosses

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