Gear Scaling does not feel good

Seeing the dup items shows the scaling between common, Uncommon and Legendary items.

Common Bow - 99-134 damage
Uncommon Bow - 140-187 Damage
Legendary Bow - 481-634 Damage
(these are all level 10 bows)

From Common to Legendary thats 4.7 x more powerful on a level 10 bow. That is way outside realm of skill mattering in a PvP fight. Gear should never be an advantage of more then 50%. IMO from common to Legendary you should not have more then a 30% boost. PvP feels best when you can still kill a top gear char still with skill. With a 4.7 x gear jump. Thats just not going to happen. In game now Carphin geared players are 1 and 2 shooting people of the same level even vs the the same class of the same level.

What are your thoughts?

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Comments

nanfoodle

The argument that a smaller scale on gear means crafting would be useful or sought after is just not true. A level 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 gives you a 10% better damage and stats then the dropped version. It will be sought after as much as a crafted bow that gives you the best damage that's 400% better damage and stats. In the end gamers will always chase the best weapon or armor, always.

nanfoodle

Little side point. No MMO will not survive with casual players. Hard core players will have the time to grind a full legendary gear. At 4.7 x more powerful then common items. Means casual players will never stand a chance. When they figure out that skill will rarely win versus best gear. You will lose the casual market, which means ashes will hurt when it comes to profits. Lower profits means less content. This ends up also not only hurting the players but also the game.

Veeshan

Defence gets x2, dmg gets x4 this i think might be the biggest issue :P although mybe the calculators balance out, i feel weapon might need to be halfed

SmileGurney

kadimir wrote: »

Exactly, you haven't grinded out the thing you have an opinion on. Basically you would never have that gear and you want it to be not worth farming for people who do. Calm down and go pick some rocks. I have actually gathered legendary copper, legendary zinc, and legendary basalt - I have not gotten above a green grem skin or anything beyond blue lumber.

I haven't done it personally, it doesn't mean I don't have access to numbers. Maths isn't that hard chief, don't tell me what I'm allowed to have an opinion on.

nanfoodle

Veeshan wrote: »

Defence gets x2, dmg gets x4 this i think might be the biggest issue :P although mybe the calculators balance out, i feel weapon might need to be halfed

Ok... so why does the armor makes some sense but the weapons scale to god mode?

Zapatos80

Scaling def needs to be tuned. However, the insane amount of work required to craft the high items, and the fact that almost every system in the game stands on top of that (gathering materials around the world (high rarity materials are exponentially harder to get), progressing nodes for stations, node ownership/wars, freeholds for processing master/gm stations, moving materials around the world risking loss on death, caravans, etc). The high rarity need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the lower ones to be worth the effort, and to promote the engagement in these systems. Atm drops completely invalidate most of the crafting system, but that will likely be adressed, hopefully as soon as P2, best time to do it after a wipe.

That being said, I do agree that the impact of gear in PVP needs to be significantly dampened, you definitely don't want a scenario where the best gear always win, regardless of skill. My own personal opinion would be that a difference of no more than 20-30% between uncommon and legendary would be ideal for PVP, at least thats my gut feeling.

Shabooey

nanfoodle wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

Defence gets x2, dmg gets x4 this i think might be the biggest issue :P although mybe the calculators balance out, i feel weapon might need to be halfed

Ok... so why does the armor makes some sense but the weapons scale to god mode?

Really interesting post @Veeshan thanks for putting it together. I agree with @nanfoodle the armour numbers look alright to be honest but the difference in scale for weapons is mad. Surely it's an oversight or something from of testing by IS as they can't have intended the that difference in armour and weapons?

Shabooey

Zapatos80 wrote: »

Scaling def needs to be tuned. However, the insane amount of work required to craft the high items, and the fact that almost every system in the game stands on top of that (gathering materials around the world (high rarity materials are exponentially harder to get), progressing nodes for stations, node ownership/wars, freeholds for processing master/gm stations, moving materials around the world risking loss on death, caravans, etc). The high rarity need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the lower ones to be worth the effort, and to promote the engagement in these systems. Atm drops completely invalidate most of the crafting system, but that will likely be adressed, hopefully as soon as P2, best time to do it after a wipe.

That being said, I do agree that the impact of gear in PVP needs to be significantly dampened, you definitely don't want a scenario where the best gear always win, regardless of skill. My own personal opinion would be that a difference of no more than 20-30% between uncommon and legendary would be ideal for PVP, at least thats my gut feeling.

I understand your point about it needs to be an increase. But when you tune down the numbers it's still a significant increase on your output because the whole playing field is brought in line so it makes sense. People are just comparing it to the numbers we have now which are crazy.

Also it's a competitive game, people will absolutely chase an extra X% increase in power to try and gain every possible advantage they can.

Crotchless

kadimir wrote: »

So riddle me this, if the gear really was 30% better, how many of you would go out and gather all the legendary mats to make one over just trying to level up?

Have any of you actually gathered legendary copper or zinc?

i think a lot of people are forgetting this, or just tend to not understand how rare getting those materials are. and when you finally do get those materials i think one should be rewarded with a bit of power. this is an MMO and yes small scale pvp will be a thing but they already stated theyre not going to balance classes to be even in 1v1s. so why would they care about someones gear being 30% better

There focus is group content, node sieges, guild wars, stuff like that. so in that scenario, one or two people out of 50+ wont make that big of a difference.

When you factor in the decrease chance of getting materials and drops in the future, i think the system isn't as bad as we all seem to think it is. not perfect, but definitely not broken

kadimir

Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

nanfoodle

kadimir wrote: »

Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

Gizban

kadimir wrote: »

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

kadimir wrote: »

So riddle me this, if the gear really was 30% better, how many of you would go out and gather all the legendary mats to make one over just trying to level up?

Have any of you actually gathered legendary copper or zinc?

Even if that was only 15%...everyone who considers themselves a try hard would join you on that farm. That percentile gap can still mean a difference between standing or being a pile of ashes. Also no one is saying you should have to farm bazillion of mats to get legendary gear. I haven't tried crafting, but from I have gathered the current state of Ashes grind goes AGAINST the anti-grind philosophy they voiced back in 2017?

I spent some silly amount of time in a coop pve game, where people would lose it, because the RNG wouldn't give them that "perfect item" with a "perfect stat" distribution and they would continue farming for hundreds of hours to get that. I would like to stress that is a COOP game with no pvp.

Exactly, you haven't grinded out the thing you have an opinion on. Basically you would never have that gear and you want it to be not worth farming for people who do. Calm down and go pick some rocks. I have actually gathered legendary copper, legendary zinc, and legendary basalt - I have not gotten above a green grem skin or anything beyond blue lumber.

I got legendary wood outside of Lionhold.

kadimir

nanfoodle wrote: »

kadimir wrote: »

Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

got any footage of that?

nanfoodle

kadimir wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

kadimir wrote: »

Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

got any footage of that?

I have watch dozens of hours of PvP footage. I am not rewatching them to find the spots I have seen. Sorry. Just go watch YouTube vids of PvP footage over the past week. It's only in the past week has reared its head.

kadimir

nanfoodle wrote: »

kadimir wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

kadimir wrote: »

Yeah that's the skinny, anyone can put in the work to get the gear.

And people saying the scaling isn't that nuts, compare the gear difference between normal crafted gear in wow with mythic raid gear. Wasn't uncommon even in heroic gear to do nearly a 3rd of a bosses life alone in raid finder.

Other half of the equation is that we do not know the **actual** effect of those numbers in damage calculations. For instance twice the armor does not mean twice the mitigation, mitigation rating is based on level and is on a curve. Getting a lvl 10 weapon had more than double the stats but did not double my damage.

We do know the outcome, people at level 25 that were fight level 25 with legendary weapons could one shot most players, and the peeps they could not one shot, they killed them with a second attack.

got any footage of that?

I have watch dozens of hours of PvP footage. I am not rewatching them to find the spots I have seen. Sorry. Just go watch YouTube vids of PvP footage over the past week. It's only in the past week has reared its head.

I have, that's why I asked if you had footage.

Even the obvious dupers with legendary gear weren't 1 shotting in clips I saw.

nanfoodle

Even Reyv has some of it in his PvP videos. Where I dont remember.

innairis

I enjoy crafting and would like crafting to remain the main source of powerful gear, but not the only source.

The ease of access crafters have to legendary items early in the game far exceeds the ability for a combat crafter to obtain equivalent gear. Legendary gear in the current iteration is extremely superior in stats to, even gear from open world raid bosses. A lot of players believe this is due to the crafter however it is due to legendary items having insane power and the crafter able to create legendary item with 'rare' materials. With the artisan tree coming in DEC 20th wipe, this will further empower crafters.

Do you think legendary item power should be tuned down? made harder to obtain? or do combat players need an easier time to obtain these items?

ShivaFang

I'm torn between toning legendries down.. or making all legendries equivalent at endgame (to give more diversity in stats if you have a stat set you really like at low levels)

The number of steps in the chain that require all mats to be legendary is a bit steep, but once you overcome that hurdle and have processing gear that can up-quality items it becomes easier and easier. This will be especially true next phase when we get the profession trees to up quality.

Hopefully it goes through a balance revision for sure.

MilosAoC

Legendary gear is currently WAY too strong.
Not only is legendary gear too strong, the scaling per rarity tier is also way too high.
In addition to that, the scaling on damage you get from gear FAR outweights the scaling on health. Meaning youre gonna like 10x your damage, but only 2x your hp. This means that when you have 2 people in full legendary, the entire fight just revolves around who can 1 shot eachother first, which is obviously incredibly boring and anti skill based gameplay.

I really hope intrepid will fix this before the 20th, otherwise the first guild that reaches legendary will just not have any fun anymore at all because every fight is an insta win, and the people who play against that guild will just quit.

TiberiusTheron

Steven, we’ve already pointed out that gear and weapon scaling is severely broken and needs immediate attention. Prominent streamers have been highlighting these issues for some time. There’s no reason for any item to scale more than 10% per tier, with a total of 50% at the highest tier. The current system disrupts all gameplay loops and is easily exploitable.

It’s currently impossible to defeat players wearing crafted gear unless you’re also equipped with crafted gear. On top of that, players are soloing world bosses and using mass-training mobs designed for full raid groups. These issues are all over YouTube now and need to be addressed immediately.

Additionally, the scaling of gear and weapons renders an entire class, the "Tank," virtually pointless. Once you reach this level of gear, having a tank in your setup becomes unnecessary. In my opinion, crafted gear shouldn't exceed world-dropped gear by more than 10% in effectiveness. This imbalance makes the system feel fundamentally broken.

I believe higher-tier items should be much harder to craft, and I've come to the conclusion that crafting shouldn't offer the best gear in the game. The whole system just feels fundamentally broken.

So once again, I’m calling you out to fix this. According to the wiki, P1 is focused on stability and progression testing. This issue is breaking the game—please address it.

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