Instanced PVP (Arena and/or Battlegrounds)

Greetings!

Like many others, I have been following AOC for years and am beyond excited for everything it has to over. However, I wanted to bring up a concerning issue I have.

For myself, I love both PVP and PVE content but I play PVP far more than anything else in an MMORPG. I read that AOC is primarily going to be open world content so there are going to be incentives for engaging with other players during events and what not. However, does this mean there won't be any small scale PVP that you can simply queue into or visit an area that is dedicated to small scale PVP? My favorite content happens to be 1v1 & 2v2 combat and it would be a bummer to have to only rely on stumbling across another person in the open world. I am perfectly fine with queuing into an arena/battleground or visiting a colosseum type area in which this type of thing can occur.

I would love to see a dev forum/discussion on this to see what direction PVP will be going in for AOC!

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Pyrolol

Just going to copy paste some of the common questions with replies I made in my Arena Thread:

Why do we have an Arena in AoC?
A lot of people enjoy competitive play, just because it might not be your cup of tea doesn’t mean others wouldn’t enjoy doing something smaller scale but more fast paced and giving the PvPers other type of end game content other than massive scale options only. Having forms of competitive ranked play (such as 3v3 or 5v5) that’s a high skill cap is essential and shows a better indication of individual skill especially when in bigger masses, a lot of people just hide to do the bare minimum but receive the same rewards. It also encourages players to push their classes to the limit and improve their own skills in the game while also giving them motivation to improve and this can be done through smaller scale instanced PvP with no outside influence aswell as a leaderboard to climb and show off their hard work and efforts.

Won't this ruin the Open World PvP?
People need to understand when there is an Arena involved, you do not just spend 100% of your time queing arena. You only que arena when your teams on (can’t say much about this 1v1 mode). You spend your time participating in other aspects of the game wheather it be PvE, Sieges, Dungeons, Raids until your main Arena team has logged on to then que.

You always have to go out and grind content to keep yourself going forward - getting better gear, augs, chants, or changing weapons to level as well as increasing your skill (continuously experiencing everything the game has to offer) so that you also remain viable to climb the ladder, then when your team is on and ready you que. Meta changes aswell can have players going out in the open world to continuiously upgrade or change their gear/weapons. Yes, queing Arena will affect the open world PvP but not as much as you think.

Don't people just spam Arena ques 24/7?
Surely if you played oldschool WoW you know you had to continually keep upgrading gear in order to climb the ladder throughout the season. You had to get gold to get enchants, farm gems, reputation gains (from questing & dungeons) to unlock recipes to craft better items, or farm borrowed powers from challenges to make a legendary, get renown to make the BIS weapon (used for both PvE & PvP), there was farming matts to be able to create a unique piece for your class. There was plenty to do to be able to stay viable to compete or you would start to fall down the leaderboard.

An example might be your team not being online, losing streaks, inflation, patch changes throughout the season, gear changes and updates, class balance changes ect or you aren’t playing the best so you get some RnR and reconvene next time (when your team is back online) so between all that, plenty to do other then que spam. Arena ques is just one small part of the larger picture.

Won't the elite PvPers destroy us with there gear and or weapons?
At the moment, currently confirmed is cosmetic rewards only. Though i do not agree with this style of reward for the achievments earned in the Arena, it is a compromise Iam happy to take as this will mean players will still need to do all other forms of gearing methods offered in the game but still can show off their skills with the rewards received whether it be similar to WoW with titles, armoured mounts, weapon glows etc

Conclusion:
Every game needs some sort of end game competitive scenario with a high skill gap to encourage players to sharpen there skills, otherwise it gets boring. Especially for those who have been a playing with a team and using team work & coordination, in scenarios where communication, fast paced quick decisions was required with a comeptitive edge to get a win or climb the ladder.
You should always play the MMO the way YOU want to play it, and so far AoC has supplied that opportunity with its variety of confirmed end game content to make both sides of this coin happy.

Reference: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58885/the-arena-thread/p1

judasalive

why can't Arena/Scenario not be an element of the OpenWorld mechanic? Instead of providing any rewards to someone or having a leaderboard (which I think is the worst), let the Arena/Scenario wins be an impact to the OpenWorld system by for e.g.
- providing a temporary buff to caravans (5% speed buff for 15mins)
- any other temporary buffs to a node (tax decrease 5%)
- provide mats to a node
- exp to a node

there are so many possibilities, which can have an impact on the whole system and not to someone else (to show that XY has the biggest balls in a leaderboard, because we has 100 fights won...)!
!! But please no rewards which will give an advantage to players in pvp !!

KingDDD

Arenas force metas and class design or are so pointless no one does them. There will be plenty of opportunities in ashes to find 1vs1 and 1vsX content as long as there are reasons to go out into the world.

Pyrolol

To the above responses, there already is an arena for that which is the Military Note selection process

No they don’t, there will be different meta for everything. Meta for raids, PvE, dungeon progression, meta for wars (mass AoE abilities), meta for smaller scale fights. If you don’t understand this you can message me and il happily explain it all in detail

You can’t possibly blame a meta shift on the Arena (which by the way is completely optional and only has cosmetic rewards given at the moment confirmed). Every game has a meta… Have you currently played any multiplayer game that’s out?

You may think a leaderboard is the worst, but others who have the competitive edge will love it and enjoy playing something that’s smaller scale team based game mode such as the Arena with no outside influence, I have met some great people along way in the passed 2 decades competing in ranked modes for different games and don’t see why Ashes can’t be like this too

Everything we know about the Arena is here:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

If this is something you don’t find yourself interested in, then simply don’t compete? Im yet to understand the thought process of people thinking having a high skill cap Arena end game mode will drastically affect them? When I’ve seen it do the complete opposite

Like i have wrote previously in my thread, there is such thing as changes or patch notes that can only affect certain aspects.
For example (x ability does -25% reduced damage in Arena, Node Sieges, Naval Combat) this does not effect the open world

Endowed

If you have instanced (safe n sterile) pvp grounds... there needs to be the same for pve/raids.

*note* open world pvp dissapates with BGs every-single-time.

Pyrolol

Endowed wrote: »

If you have instanced (safe n sterile) pvp grounds... there needs to be the same for pve/raids.

*note* open world pvp dissapates with BGs every-single-time.

There are instanced dungeons confirmed?
Have you even bothered reading the Ashes wiki?

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

To the above responses, there already is an arena for that which is the Military Note selection process

No they don’t, there will be different meta for everything. Meta for raids, PvE, dungeon progression, meta for wars (mass AoE abilities), meta for smaller scale fights. If you don’t understand this you can message me and il happily explain it all in detail

You can’t possibly blame a meta shift on the Arena (which by the way is completely optional and only has cosmetic rewards given at the moment confirmed). Every game has a meta… Have you currently played any multiplayer game that’s out?

You may think a leaderboard is the worst, but others who have the competitive edge will love it and enjoy playing something that’s smaller scale team based game mode such as the Arena with no outside influence, I have met some great people along way in the passed 2 decades competing in ranked modes for different games and don’t see why Ashes can’t be like this too

Everything we know about the Arena is here:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

If this is something you don’t find yourself interested in, then simply don’t compete? Im yet to understand the thought process of people thinking having a high skill cap Arena end game mode will drastically affect them? When I’ve seen it do the complete opposite

Like i have wrote previously in my thread, there is such thing as changes or patch notes that can only affect certain aspects.
For example (x ability does -25% reduced damage in Arena, Node Sieges, Naval Combat) this does not effect the open world

I assume you're talking to me.

Arenas very much force class balance changes. There were many such decisions (like armor pen in 3.1) made during the course of wow. If class a is dominant in large group pvp meh in pve and insanely weak in arenas what is the correct choice in this scenario. Do you tell players (who spent hundreds of hours leveling) that like arena tough shit your class will be bad? Do you buff the class so it's good in arenas and broken in large group? While it always isn't an a or b choice, balanced/competitive arena play shapes the way classes function and how they play.

Pyrolol

The same way they do it since you are using WoW as the example

- Scale it so it applies only when you enter Arena
- Class changes can be mitigated to just when you enter the Arena and different scenarios that way it is your choice anyway if you want to participate
- Gear cap the Arena (example gearscore of 2,000 maximum) so it’s more even playing field
- Max level only to enter Arena
- Certain gear score before you can enter the Arena (minimum requirement)
- Maximum of 1 cleric/ 1 tank per team (option for triple dps allowed)

I don’t know how else to explain you can easily do class changes (that will only apply to the Arena or other modes) but have the open world not affected

Answer me how Open World PvP is ever fair when its always dominated with numbers (example large guild groups)

I thought Ashes of Creation had a risk vs reward factor, so enter the Arena at your own risk

EDIT: You missed this part

Like i have wrote previously in my thread, there is such thing as changes or patch notes that can only affect certain aspects.
For example (x ability does -25% reduced damage in Arena, Node Sieges, Naval Combat) this does not effect the open world

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

The same way they do it since you are using WoW as the example

- Scale it so it applies only when you enter Arena
- Class changes can be mitigated to just when you enter the Arena and different scenarios that way it is your choice anyway if you want to participate
- Gear cap the Arena (example gearscore of 2,000 maximum) so it’s more even playing field
- Max level only to enter Arena
- Certain gear score before you can enter the Arena (minimum requirement)
- Maximum of 1 cleric/ 1 tank per team (option for triple dps allowed)

I don’t know how else to explain you can easily do class changes (that will only apply to the Arena or other modes) but have the open world not affected

Answer me how Open World PvP is ever fair when its always dominated with numbers (example large guild groups)

I thought Ashes of Creation had a risk vs reward factor, so enter the Arena at your own risk

EDIT: You missed this part

Like i have wrote previously in my thread, there is such thing as changes or patch notes that can only affect certain aspects.
For example (x ability does -25% reduced damage in Arena, Node Sieges, Naval Combat) this does not effect the open world

From my memory it's already been said that abilities and gear won't scale or change based on game mode. They obviously could do it based on the flagging system but thats a cheesy system in a game designed around the open world imo.

Open world, by design, isn't fair or competitive in the same way an arena is. The appeal of it is the anthesis of arena gameplay.

Pyrolol

Also the appeal of Arena

- Fast paced game mode using team work to counter your enemies using skill and team coordination
- Smaller scale controlled PvP with no outside influence
- More notice of individual skill rather than sitting in big groups playing loot simulator
- Ranked competitive system
- Unique rewards to flex skill and efforts achieved
- Leaderboard (no need to say more)
- E-Sports opportunity (not needed until much later)
- Pushing your class to the limits in a controlled environment
- End game competitive mode instead of running around looking for a random to fight out in the open world
- No Corruption risk
- Unique Titles & Cosmetics
- Playing as a team with your mates
- Motivation to master your class and work better as a team
- Inspiration when watching others compete and seeing how they play there class in an Arena
- Clutch plays (if you have had heart throbbing 1v3 games or where it was down to you to win it for your team to get the rating you will understand)

Just off the top of my head

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

Also the appeal of Arena

- Fast paced game mode using team work to counter your enemies using skill and team coordination
- Smaller scale controlled PvP with no outside influence
- More notice of individual skill rather than sitting in big groups playing loot simulator
- Ranked competitive system
- Unique rewards to flex skill and efforts achieved
- Leaderboard (no need to say more)
- E-Sports opportunity (not needed until much later)
- Pushing your class to the limits in a controlled environment
- End game competitive mode instead of running around looking for a random to fight out in the open world
- No Corruption risk
- Unique Titles & Cosmetics
- Playing as a team with your mates
- Motivation to master your class and work better as a team
- Inspiration when watching others compete and seeing how they play there class in an Arena
- Clutch plays (if you have had heart throbbing 1v1 games where it was down to you to win it for your team to get the rating you will understand)

Just off the top of my head

I never said arenas weren't appealing. No one has said arenas cannot be appealing. Nothing you typed above addresses what I said previously about arenas and balance changes. You gloss over the entire concept that abilities will not shift based on game mode.

Its obvious you want arenas, but if you don't want to address what other people say to you you may as well go type to chat gpt.

Pyrolol

I honestly do not know how else to say about balancing changes which is the one thing you have mentioned (and answered with them being patch noted only to apply for when you step into the Arena. If no changes happen then so be it just play the Arena with what you got?

Its obvious you don’t want Arenas, yet when in AoC its design is optional compared to say WoW which is its core PvP game mode
So I'm yet to understand if you don’t want to participate? Then don’t? Or try it and see if it is something you enjoy?

Noaani

Pyrolol wrote: »

Won't this ruin the Open World PvP?
People need to understand when there is an Arena involved, you do not just spend 100% of your time queing arena. You only que arena when your teams on (can’t say much about this 1v1 mode). You spend your time participating in other aspects of the game wheather it be PvE, Sieges, Dungeons, Raids until your main Arena team has logged on to then que.

Wouldn't this only apply to the very small number of people that only run arena PvP in specific, pre-made groups?

Most players don't do this, they queue up as solo or duo players to be added to a group, or have a group made up around them.

The other point I would want to make is that this argument applies equally to instanced PvE as much as instanced PvP. Any argument for why a game with both open world PvP and PvE should have instanced PvP or PvE has to automatically apply to the other.

Nightmarelol

I mean it’s not even close with the popularity, WoW End Game PvP / PvE is what made it so successful (Arenas / Battlegrounds / Raiding / Dungeons). Don’t get me wrong, there was World PvP as someone who played WoW since Vanilla, but ofcourse just like every World PvP experience's (WoW/New World etc etc) it is usually is short lived, and until one side over-masses in numbers, which then ends in people running away.
End Game Content should be more focused on then catering to a few (maybe could happen mini skirmishes)

At the end of the day, AOC is a business, and money/profit margins would come in to play, WoW’s success still holding the #1 spot for MMORPGs, just comes to show what the people want I guess.

Not saying World PvP is bad, I myself do enjoy the odd fights here and there, but just like anything in life, without an end goal or something to look forward too (Arena rewards etc ) it dies really quickly. Stated before by @Apok, I don’t have the playing time I used to when I was younger, so mindlessly running around trying to find a fight or have to sit there organising one would be quite daunting, especially if ya come up empty.

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

I honestly do not know how else to say about balancing changes which is the one thing you have mentioned (and answered with them being patch noted only to apply for when you step into the Arena. If no changes happen then so be it just play the Arena with what you got?

Its obvious you don’t want Arenas, yet when in AoC its design is optional compared to say WoW which is its core PvP game mode
So I'm yet to understand if you don’t want to participate? Then don’t? Or try it and see if it is something you enjoy?

Again theyve already said they won't have abilities dual function. I've played many arenas, reached glad in multiple seasons. The balance changes because arenas made wow worse.

Nightmarelol

Again theyve already said they won't have abilities dual function. I've played many arenas, reached glad in multiple seasons. The balance changes because arenas made wow worse.

As someone who’s multi-glad and competed in the Arena Tournament, I can assure you, balance changes do not always make things “worse”. What is your point here btw? Every game right now in existence that’s online based has a meta/patch notes/buffs and debuffs (COD/League/Dota/Apex/Etc etc etc). It’s to keep things exciting for players and give other classes / specs or even weapons that aren’t being used a fair “go” in PvP and PvE. So whether ya want it or not, it’s going to happen 🤷🏻‍♂️

KingDDD

Nightmarelol wrote: »

Again theyve already said they won't have abilities dual function. I've played many arenas, reached glad in multiple seasons. The balance changes because arenas made wow worse.

As someone who’s multi-glad and competed in the Arena Tournament, I can assure you, balance changes do not always make things “worse”. What is your point here btw? Every game right now in existence that’s online based has a meta/patch notes/buffs and debuffs (COD/League/Dota/Apex/Etc etc etc). It’s to keep things exciting for players and give other classes / specs or even weapons that aren’t being used a fair “go” in PvP and PvE. So whether ya want it or not, it’s going to happen 🤷🏻‍♂️

Arenas create very specific scenarios within fixed parameters. Cooldown timers, cc diminishing returns, burst profiles, etc all have to have tight windows for it to be competitive. At the same time those things exist within an open world paradigm where all of those must be able to scale to large numbers. Certain classes (not archetypes) will excel at each of these different things. This inherently creates a class design where specific classes are extremely strong or weak at different game types. Again I will ask what do you tell the person who spends 45 days of time leveling class x only to find out they are outclassed in y gametype.

Ask ret paladins from vanilla (not classic) how much fun they had being laughed at in pve. Games have metas and those metas shift, but the games you listed do not have competitive modes based around multiple coexisting game types. Using dota as example, you are asking icefrog to balance dota around turbo, ranked, 10 person, ability draft, and random. How do you think this would turn out?

Wow was popular because it was the only game in town. Lotro vanguard aoc war rift couldn't hold a candle to the performance, ease of access, and plain old luck of wow. End game content actually killed the long-term sustainability of wow.

Pyrolol

The spells in WoW are completely different to AoC’s, you guys are so advocated to not have Arena in here when it will finally be something that looks really enjoyable with these classes and the game design thats in

Im saying since the Arena is not out, isn’t this something the dev team can look at (hence these forums) as to not affect your “absolutely rng open world battles” that I’m yet to witness in the entirety of this Alpha 2

My biggest point here is let’s see how it pans out? Instead of trying to take it away before it is even given a chance, cause the only way the Arena would absolutely affect the OW is if Ashes is a dead game

judasalive

In my opinion arena fights should be seen as team fights, not as a "solo competitive battle"... something to choose the right team setup, with the right synergy of different skills/spells from different classes. This mechanic was disregarded in some mmorpgs out there in the past. Look for e.g. at arenas in T&L where the group mechanic is totally immaterial. It is just a dmg race there and this should not be the way how arenas are implemented.

"...Again I will ask what do you tell the person who spends 45 days of time leveling class x only to find out they are outclassed in y gametype..."

yes its very hard to find the right balance for classes between pve and pvp, but if the dev team keep focus on the teamplay, every class will find its role in a team setup pvp... openworld or arena...

KingDDD

Pyrolol wrote: »

The spells in WoW are completely different to AoC’s, you guys are so advocated to not have Arena in here when it will finally be something that looks really enjoyable with these classes and the game design thats in

Im saying since the Arena is not out, isn’t this something the dev team can look at (hence these forums) as to not affect your “absolutely rng open world battles” that I’m yet to witness in the entirety of this Alpha 2

My biggest point here is let’s see how it pans out? Instead of trying to take it away before it is even given a chance, cause the only way the Arena would absolutely affect the OW is if Ashes is a dead game

Who are you quoting as saying, "absolutely rng open world battles". I can't seem to find the quote anywhere. You haven't seen any type of open world content as the the world isn't anywhere close to complete. Mob density, resource locations, level progression, etc aren't even close to to done. You aren't seeing anything because you are only seeing a half-baked vertical slice of the intended gameplay loop.

The wait and see argument is terrible for game design as players loath having anything taken away. The same argument could be applied for flying mounts or random dungeon ques or instant travel.

Again you fail to address the actual issue with arenas: class balance. For the third time, abilities will not function differently. What is your solution?

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