Dear Intrepid, you are unnecessarily killing a lot of people's desire to test the game for you.

The start of phase 2 has been badly handled I think. It's like you forgot the perspective of your testing base.

My assumption is that you want to keep a lot of testers happily engaged and testing in the future as well, and that this isn't some social experiment in misery. In order for that to happen, the fun has to outweigh the suck at least a little. For the EU base, you really missed the mark. I don't know how bad it is on the NA servers.

1. End of phase 1
The drop off in the amount of active players you saw near the end of phase 1 wasn't people generally losing interest in testing the game. It was primarily because of the incoming wipe. Instead of playing, they spent time planning where to go and what to do in phase 2. Many big PvP guilds were going to Lotharia and more casual PvX guilds were going on other servers etc. Less than 24 hours before phase 2, all those plans were completely disrupted by the announcement that EU only got one server (and NA one or two). That alone caused disappointment and a loss of people's desire to test the game for you.

2. Content drought
It's blindingly obvious that the current content in the game cannot support this number of players on one server, even without the bugs causing mobs not to respawn. This was obvious during phase 1. Sure, the servers might be close to be able to handling the number of people, and you definitely need to test that and iron out those bugs. But you are shooting yourselves in the foot by making that the default and only option for the testing base.

Once both the desert and the tropics are fully populated with content and nodes, will there be enough content for this many people. Right now that is clearly not the case

Punish us on PTR. We like that. Take the regular PROD servers down for a week and mash us all into one big family on one server to really stress everything server related. That's fine too. But creating only one testing environment you have to have known wasn't ready content-wise as the only testing option, is not. You are killing the desire for people to test for you.

3. People are much less likely to write /bug reports
The scarcity of mobs and resources cause people to feel a sense of urgency in what they are doing. We have 2+ full groups of people contesting spots that can only really support 3-4 players. The sense of urgency and competition doesn't give people any incentive to stop and type /bug. It's rather the opposite. You have access to the numbers, but I bet the avg. number of bug reports per player has gone down a lot in phase 2 compared to previous phases, and it's not because the game is now bug free at all. Especially during prime time. People are just too busy contesting the poor mobs and resources. You are killing the desire/time for people to report bugs.

I don't want this to be a wall of text, so I'll end it here. Please Intrepid, take this feedback, and the feedback from many similar posts, to heart. I want to test, my friends want to test, people are happy to test, but not at any level of suck if the fun doesn't match. I am guessing we'll see a fairly large drop in testers in the next few days/weeks, and it'll largely be because of this, not because the game as it is right now can't also be fun with the right amount of testers per server.

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Terranigma1

bloodprophet wrote: »

Over populated camps and scarce resources leads to "meaningful" conflict. That is part of the game and intended. Right from the very first Kickstarter video they were clear on this. It is one of the main pillars.

Do they need to finish what they started and fill the world in. YES. Yes they do.

I disagree on the attribute "meaningful" conflict. I do agree, that the current state of the game fosters a competitive attitude amongst players, however I don't perceive this as meaningful. I do think that scarce resources or even access to certain aspects of the game should be something to compete about, and there are various examples of this already in the game:

open world dungeons
caravans
rare resources
lots for freeholds
mayorship in nodes
...

Competition is already baked into various systems and contents of the game. However, I don't think Intrepid can honestly want to make access to the core gameplay loop a competition, because being part of a competition means by definition that you have losers and winners. In this context, loosing bascially means that you cannot play the most basic core features of the game: killing mobs and gaining XP to progress your character. Going for a design that requires a certain percentage of players being effectively unable to play the game is bad design at its core.

Fighting about rare resources or access to an open world-dungeon? Sure, that's fine. Because you can still play the game without being able to gather that one resource spot because it's guarded by players. You can also still play the game and progress even if you can't participate at node wars, run a caravan, etc. pp. There I see lots of place for meaningful conflict. But not when it comes to click on "Play" and simply wanting to play the game, i.e. complete quests and kill mobs.

This won't appeal to a wider audience. And by 'wider audience' I don't mean mainstream, or anything like that. But Ashes will need a healthy player base - e.g. causal players - because its vast open world and all the player-driven systems. Aside from that, I don't believe you'll end up with a pleasant and enjoyable playerbase if you teach them starting from level 1 that each and every player - maybe outside your guild - is a competitor. That's a sure way towards toxicity.

Otr

Terranigma1 wrote: »

But Ashes will need a healthy player base - e.g. causal players - because its vast open world and all the player-driven systems.

Casual players don't complain 2 days after server launch.
They let things settle and start a few weeks later.

bloodprophet

Terranigma1 wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Over populated camps and scarce resources leads to "meaningful" conflict. That is part of the game and intended. Right from the very first Kickstarter video they were clear on this. It is one of the main pillars.

Do they need to finish what they started and fill the world in. YES. Yes they do.

I disagree on the attribute "meaningful" conflict. I do agree, that the current state of the game fosters a competitive attitude amongst players, however I don't perceive this as meaningful. I do think that scarce resources or even access to certain aspects of the game should be something to compete about, and there are various examples of this already in the game:
open world dungeons

caravans

rare resources

lots for freeholds

mayorship in nodes

...

Competition is already baked into various systems and contents of the game. However, I don't think Intrepid can honestly want to make access to the core gameplay loop a competition, because being part of a competition means by definition that you have losers and winners. In this context, loosing bascially means that you cannot play the most basic core features of the game: killing mobs and gaining XP to progress your character. Going for a design that requires a certain percentage of players being effectively unable to play the game is bad design at its core.

Fighting about rare resources or access to an open world-dungeon? Sure, that's fine. Because you can still play the game without being able to gather that one resource spot because it's guarded by players. You can also still play the game and progress even if you can't participate at node wars, run a caravan, etc. pp. There I see lots of place for meaningful conflict. But not when it comes to click on "Play" and simply wanting to play the game, i.e. complete quests and kill mobs.

This won't appeal to a wider audience. And by 'wider audience' I don't mean mainstream, or anything like that. But Ashes will need a healthy player base - e.g. causal players - because its vast open world and all the player-driven systems. Aside from that, I don't believe you'll end up with a pleasant and enjoyable playerbase if you teach them starting from level 1 that each and every player - maybe outside your guild - is a competitor. That's a sure way towards toxicity.

I agree for the 90%.

They are missing a lot of content. But at this point that is expected. By me at least. This is exactly what I expected for an alpha.

The hardest part I think they are facing is managing peoples expectations. A fair amount of people heard them say a true alpha nothing is done , but their brain translated early access, as we have been trained by the industry to expect that. Then they get in and get confused by it.

I saw short the other day from Pirate Software talking about this very thing. So many companies now conflate the terms alpha and early access that most people think they are the same.

There is so much work to get done. Just seeing the world transformations over the last few weeks makes me wonder how much is done on their private servers they want to implement but are holding back as the network team is scrambling to make all their newly developed tech work and work properly.

For newer people some of the things they are working on they had to develop and build as they didn't exist before now. New stuff takes time to build.

Hard to build a house before the foundation is done.

bloodprophet

With Steven's post on the discord just now (11:32am 12/22/24) with the mobs spawning underground is the kind of thing that happens when building these things.

Life happens, we figure out what went sideways, fix it and learn.

Knotti

Well this thread is getting pretty hot. As I read through, it was really something I said WoW 2... I mean wow to.

Terranigma1

bloodprophet wrote: »

They are missing a lot of content. But at this point that is expected. By me at least. This is exactly what I expected for an alpha.

Just to be clear: I'm not talking about the alpha per se. I don't mind the current state of the game. The lack of content is to be expected in an Alpha and this doesn't bother me - because it's an alpha and because I expect the final product to be vastly different. I was referring to the design approach. If Intrepid were to design the game in such a way that even the core gameplayloop is considered an element of conflict - e.g. mob locations - then this would be atrocious gamedesign.

And because of that, I don't believe they want to go down this road. I don't perceive the current state of the levelleling experience as badly designed on purpose - i.e. they want (!) players to fight about mere mobs - but simply the result of the game being unfinished and central elements missing or being incomplete, such as quests.

brita

Otr wrote: »

Terranigma1 wrote: »

But Ashes will need a healthy player base - e.g. causal players - because its vast open world and all the player-driven systems.

Casual players don't complain 2 days after server launch.
They let things settle and start a few weeks later.

No, I'm pretty casual and was invited by my brother and friends, so I have no vested interest. But I'm still giving my feedback about how completely miserable it is. I think all feedback would be important, especially from the more casual solo/small group crowd.

Aszkalon

All the little Bugs i found i did report, but Yes it is exactly as Nerror said.

Aside from that i got huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge Burn-Out after the first Two Spot-Test Weekends anyway : i also felt no Desire to even try levelling my Ranger up to LvL 25, because i just knew about the incoming Wipe.

While it was funny that apparently Narc was a little bit whining about this -> Yes it takes a looooonnng time to get LvL 25 and now People who grinded like their Real Life depended on it, feel how much it took out of them and they have to do it all over again if they want to test LvL 25 Content again.

Since the Time to Phase Three is like Five Month and Ten Days now -> this time i feel a little bit more motivated to try and go for LvL 25.

But something tells me i will not even test half the Content i could, if i don't get into a Group which helps me out because alone i am as smart as a completely Booze-wasted 100 Year old trying to learn new Computer Technology of the last Five Years.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

It's blindingly obvious that the current content in the game cannot support this number of players on one server

If only there was a prominant poster on these forums that had been saying this for years.

Sathrago

Honestly I dont get what is even being tested right now. We still have inventory issues, we still have afk event farming, we still have a poorly optimized terrain/world. They should already have the info they need and the bugs should be getting fixed by the day but im just not seeing it. They are not very talkative on their current progress and are extremely slow to fix things.

I feel like too much time is being wasted on things that just do not matter over the large amount of time they have spent making the game so far. Unless they are holding back tons of already made content/systems, this game feels like it will take another 8 years to actually release with the promised content.

The servers were barely passable before phase 2, and they decided to not only release less servers this time, but also do this with a brand new update, a fresh wipe of characters, and 5 days before Christmas.

This just screams no actual testing will be done and was just a horrible plan in every regard.

Laetitian

Lucascp92 wrote: »

I have a serious question: What are we supposed to be testing?

Scalability (Be online alongside other players regularly for a few hours here and there. Pass through zones often enough to provide input to the server mashing process, so take long-ish journeys and farming trips regularly.)
Crash reports with any potentially relevant information in case it's tough to tell from the technical report.
Feedback on existing quests, XP rewards for quests and mobs relative to their difficulty, general class balance, look & feel of areas and game progression (all loot and crafting rewards)
Feedback on PvE encounters, what mechanics are missing. (not so much number of encounters as that's expected to increase)

Starting phase 2, more minute reviews of your efforts in the economy and how the balance feels there.
Also, initiate node conflict, comment on roadblocks in making things happen, and parts that could be more interesting there.

Come phase 3 you can really start to dig into parts of the progression that feel unsatisfying, boring, unpolished, or unrewarding. Not enough quests, not enough encounters, encounters not fit for group size, encounter distribution around the map not challenging enough to make map exploration challenging and exciting. (Specific areas that need rebalancing or changes in how the world gets populated.)
Guild v Guild balance, map reward distribution, node progression fairness and incentives for players in both small and large nodes.

Obviously bug reports throughout, just realise that there will be bugs in all kinds of areas, and some parts of the game will be reworked so thoroughly that there's no point in having that bug fixed directly.

Which part of that do you struggle to be able to do, and why?

Otr

Sathrago wrote: »

Unless they are holding back tons of already made content/systems, this game feels like it will take another 8 years to actually release with the promised content.

They hired many developers over the last year or two.
Steven have to use them efficiently now. I doubt he intends to keep them working 8 years until release.
He will rather reduce node count, number of biomes, map size and will release the game with whatever quality is reached in 2 years.
Then will start subscription and continue adding features.

Otr

brita wrote: »

Otr wrote: »

Terranigma1 wrote: »

But Ashes will need a healthy player base - e.g. causal players - because its vast open world and all the player-driven systems.

Casual players don't complain 2 days after server launch.
They let things settle and start a few weeks later.

No, I'm pretty casual and was invited by my brother and friends, so I have no vested interest. But I'm still giving my feedback about how completely miserable it is. I think all feedback would be important, especially from the more casual solo/small group crowd.

What do you expect as a casual player on the first days of a test server launch when you are surrounded by competitive players?
You expected the quality level of an early access game on Steam, where studios might care for review rating?

Steven and Margaret told players repeatedly during streams to wait for release if testing is not their cup of tea.

Might be Steven's mistake, to give access to everyone. People will get bad experiences now and by the time the game is ready for release, they'll be playing other games, pulled away by their brothers and friends.
Or maybe Steven has no choice but bring to an end this many year monthly streaming about a future game and deliver what he can.

At least all these over-hyped non-testers supported the development with money. Many probably are fine with that.

Vhaeyne

I am currently having more fun in A2P2 than A2P1 or even A1.

The massive amount of competition on the server is really bringing people out of their shells.

I have flagged up more times in these last few days than all of A2P1.

It truly is great. We are flagging up over basic one star mobs and gathering nodes.

My only worry right now is with xp rates being so high. It feels like people will cap and be gone. There are already a bunch of level 25s out there.

I am excited for node wars and the constant battles a "SAND-park" game can have, but I don't think the themepark MMO tourists will stay for all of this phase.

The good news is with only three servers the populations should not get that low on any server.

nanfoodle

Conflict over trash mobs is not meaningful conflict. Fighting over world bossed, Node wars, best is slot rare crafting resources, relics. Now that's meaningful conflict. When you have walked away and taken something good you can point at.

Vhaeyne

nanfoodle wrote: »

Conflict over trash mobs is not meaningful conflict. Fighting over world bossed, Node wars, best is slot rare crafting resources, relics. Now that's meaningful conflict. When you have walked away and taken something good you can point at.

There cannot be an objective standard for "meaningful conflict." At best, it’s an aspirational concept.

When I fight someone over a copper node, it feels meaningful enough to me.

More importantly, I’m having way more fun now.

That’s what Ashes is all about: "Vhaeyne's fun."

Tycondraes

This is an Alpha, not one of the "Early Access" games that you see on Steam.
The whole point of a testing in Alpha is to test the systems they are working on and give feedback so they can fix and improve things.

Saying there is a "Content Drought" in an Alpha game is asinine. They have been very clear about what the Alpha is and what to expect at each stage. It is not early access to a basically finished game. It is access to help TEST a game that is still HEAVILY under development.

Nerror

Tycondraes wrote: »

This is an Alpha, not one of the "Early Access" games that you see on Steam.
The whole point of a testing in Alpha is to test the systems they are working on and give feedback so they can fix and improve things.

Saying there is a "Content Drought" in an Alpha game is asinine. They have been very clear about what the Alpha is and what to expect at each stage. It is not early access to a basically finished game. It is access to help TEST a game that is still HEAVILY under development.

Yeah, that's all obvious stuff and not the point of this thread.

SmileGurney

I really don't understand how Intrepid thinks that the current state of mining is acceptable. In this phase I saw literally ONE copper node.

metal nodes (copper, zink, tin, iron etc) are too small, this makes finding them a pain a world full of detail and terrible viewing distances for many objects
I would like to see what is their respawn timer atm, but I suspect they are way too short
I have seen one copper node and dozens iron and tin nodes. I get it copper is the only node which is likely gatherable atm, but maybe its time to rethink the approach to how resource nodes work?

Coming from games like GW2 and especially New World I genuinely enjoyed going out to gather resources there. In New World gathering felt just right and I felt like I'm making progress. In GW2 crafting was also satisfying. Here I feel I'm getting robbed of my time and just do not want to interact with those systems.

How are we expected to test the economy and crafting and actually ENJOY those systems? People have personal life outside the game and limited free time. I'm not wasting hours of my time on a wild goose chase and attempting to compete with dupers.

increase the size of metal nodes. They should be at least 2 meters high. All of them. Make them darker and easier to spot from distance
substantially decrease their respawn timers

Learn how to respect free time of your testers and soon players/customers Intrepid, or they will become as rare as copper.

Sathrago

ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: »

I really don't understand how Intrepid thinks that the current state of mining is acceptable. In this phase I saw literally ONE copper node.
metal nodes (copper, zink, tin, iron etc) are too small, this makes finding them a pain a world full of detail and terrible viewing distances for many objects

I would like to see what is their respawn timer atm, but I suspect they are way too short

I have seen one copper node and dozens iron and tin nodes. I get it copper is the only node which is likely gatherable atm, but maybe its time to rethink the approach to how resource nodes work?

Coming from games like GW2 and especially New World I genuinely enjoyed going out to gather resources there. In New World gathering felt just right and I felt like I'm making progress. In GW2 crafting was also satisfying. Here I feel I'm getting robbed of my time and just do not want to interact with those systems.

How are we expected to test the economy and crafting and actually ENJOY those systems? People have personal life outside the game and limited free time. I'm not wasting hours of my time on a wild goose chase and attempting to compete with dupers.
increase the size of metal nodes. They should be at least 2 meters high. All of them. Make them darker and easier to spot from distance

substantially decrease their respawn timers

Learn how to respect free time of your testers and soon players/customers Intrepid, or they will become as rare as copper.

I really think that one major factor in gathering right now, especially for copper nodes, is the mayors having access to the flying mounts. They should honestly be downgraded to gliding mounts for now. Its really just not balanced for these mounts yet. One guy flying around with a mining setup can gather a large amount of copper in a very short amount of time and I bet you anything this is one of the bigger reasons for the shortage for players, but "acceptable storages full of copper" that steven and team were seeing.

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