Solutions for Steven - Identify Problem, then give solution

1970merlin

Problem: Boredom. Too boring to test.

Solution: Turn the respawn rate up in general. Quest specific: Currently you can't even do the quests because the respawn rate for named mobs is so long. We understand the game is designed to take work to have a sense of accomplishment. But, until the game has enough content to maintain interest you are going to have to make it a little more rewarding to have enough people interested to test. Also, I and many other players are very worried about the long term effect of a bad experience now (and the experience now is very bad.)

Problem: Communication and expectations.

Solution: Tell us what we are testing. If you just don't have anything done just say it. This would be better.

Problem: Game built around PvP & Group play alone will not get the player base to pay for PvP and group game.

Solution: There are simply not enough players to support a PvP/group only mmorpg. Development must be a two-track approach. PvE and single player path have to be an option as much as most of the current testers are not looking for this. I personally am much more interested in PVP and group play, but I also want enough players to support the game when it releases.

Problem: So many systems.

Solution: Sadly, You need to hold people's hands. Intrepid is going to have to develop a level 1-10 quest line that takes players thru literally everything if you want group participation. This means quests for registering as a citizen, for helping build the first building in a node, for freeholds, literally for every game mechanic. I'm assuming there are already plans for this, but writing this just in case. People, who have just followed the game a little have little idea how to participate and it is only going to get worse as more systems are introduced. I have seen new streamers lost and unable to figure out what to do next. I understand the desire not to hold people's hands, but it just has to be done. So just accept it and move on. You cant expect people in their teens and 20s to figure things out when every other game they have ever played led them thru like children. You can't fight this as much as this appalls Gen X. It is already important, but as more Alpha 2 keys are sold, (these are people not steeped in years of development videos) having these quests is a must or these new people will be lost and angry. I would get them in the game now to avoid a bad first impression.

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Noaani

I don't disagree with most of your points here.

The game has too many systems - and has many more to come. These systems are taking what should be a near sandbox game and essentially trying to shape player behavior to the same degree that a full themepark MMO would see.

I also agree that a group based PvP focused MMO is a tough sell to most people.

The problem is, these things are literally what the game has always been. They can't really reduce the number of systems the game has, because it has been sold to players as having all of those systems, and players have made purchasing decisions based on them.

Same with the notion of solo play and PvE - the game has always been based on group play, and PvP has always been at the forefront of them games design.

Endowed

I like all the systems.
Then each person kind find there niche(s) within them.
And unlike others mmos, it's probably best that you cant/don't do them all.

Now when you get things accomplished -- it's a real achievement.

Even for guilds and nodes.

blktauna

Noaani wrote: »

The problem is, these things are literally what the game has always been. They can't really reduce the number of systems the game has, because it has been sold to players as having all of those systems, and players have made purchasing decisions based on them.

Same with the notion of solo play and PvE - the game has always been based on group play, and PvP has always been at the forefront of them games design.

I always wonder how the PVP only folks think they will be provided for without the PVE element.

In all honest perhaps PVE should just be random bots of certain towns going out and farming so the PVP only gang can hunt and grief them all they like. Like a more focused Mob. Then what you loot from them goes into your guild's coffers and that allows certain gear to spawn for you in the guild store, thus eliminating the whole need for any pve players and it can simply be non stop pvp.

Taleof2Cities

blktauna wrote: »

I always wonder how the PVP only folks think they will be provided for without the PVE element.

There's plenty of PvP content in Ashes, blktauna ... so you won't have to worry about that.

Not only are there node sieges, caravans, and flagging up in overland, but there are entire portions of the map that are PvP-only (open sea combat, for example).

blktauna

indeed but how will you get your weapons and food? If you don't want the PVE side to supply that, make your wishes know to the Game runner so these things can get automated out and not needed so the player base that is interested in those areas can go find something else.

Right now the game is not set up to be 24/7 PVP freeforall. If you could come in on day one with sufficient skills and gear to adequately participate in PVP, great. But you don't. This seems to not be sure of what it wants to be. There's too much dependence on PVE systems for it to be totally PVP focused and those PVE systems are grossly underpowered and vulnerable to the PVP segment.

Maybe thats what part of this test it about

Pyrolol

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I always wonder how the PVP only folks think they will be provided for without the PVE element.

There's plenty of PvP content in Ashes, blktauna ... so you won't have to worry about that.

Not only are there node sieges, caravans, and flagging up in overland, but there are entire portions of the map that are PvP-only (open sea combat, for example).

Contested area is only for Alpha til naval warfare comes in, I think it should be permanent as it is not only optional for the anti pvpers out there, also you shouldn’t receive an exp debt for dying to other players, the rewards should be higher in that area to encourage participation

Vhaeyne

I am sorry OP, but I can't really agree with anything you have said here.
It honestly comes off as if you have a false impression of what Ashes is trying to be:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Inspiration

1970merlin wrote: »

Problem: Boredom. Too boring to test.

Solution: Turn the respawn rate up in general. Quest specific: Currently you can't even do the quests because the respawn rate for named mobs is so long. We understand the game is designed to take work to have a sense of accomplishment. But, until the game has enough content to maintain interest you are going to have to make it a little more rewarding to have enough people interested to test. Also, I and many other players are very worried about the long term effect of a bad experience now (and the experience now is very bad.)

The spawn rate may be what it is to make mobs competitive. I am have had the time of my life fighting over everything in the game since the 20th. To me this is what PvX is all about.

I don't want any changes here.

Player friction is what makes Ashes great!

1970merlin wrote: »

Problem: Communication and expectations.

Solution: Tell us what we are testing. If you just don't have anything done just say it. This would be better.

See the road map:
https://www.ashesofcreation.wiki/Alpha-2_phase-2

1970merlin wrote: »

Problem: Game built around PvP & Group play alone will not get the player base to pay for PvP and group game.

Solution: There are simply not enough players to support a PvP/group only mmorpg. Development must be a two-track approach. PvE and single player path have to be an option as much as most of the current testers are not looking for this. I personally am much more interested in PVP and group play, but I also want enough players to support the game when it releases.

I don't agree with this at all.

The number one thing that ruins MMORPGs is people wanting games to have more solo or single player content.

It is like saying make the game less like a MMORPG to make a MMORPG...

The game should be constantly incentivizing you to meet new people and work with others to get things done.

1970merlin wrote: »

Problem: So many systems.

Solution: Sadly, You need to hold people's hands. Intrepid is going to have to develop a level 1-10 quest line that takes players thru literally everything if you want group participation. This means quests for registering as a citizen, for helping build the first building in a node, for freeholds, literally for every game mechanic. I'm assuming there are already plans for this, but writing this just in case. People, who have just followed the game a little have little idea how to participate and it is only going to get worse as more systems are introduced. I have seen new streamers lost and unable to figure out what to do next. I understand the desire not to hold people's hands, but it just has to be done. So just accept it and move on. You cant expect people in their teens and 20s to figure things out when every other game they have ever played led them thru like children. You can't fight this as much as this appalls Gen X. It is already important, but as more Alpha 2 keys are sold, (these are people not steeped in years of development videos) having these quests is a must or these new people will be lost and angry. I would get them in the game now to avoid a bad first impression.

There is something magical about taking the time to figure these systems out and socializing with others to learn the game. The new player experience should be to find a guild and socialize to learn the game. Watch community content about the game. Be a apart of the community.

Games that babysit you with quests and dialog are griefing your intelligence.

You do not need to hold peoples hands to make a good video game.

Sorry for going point by point here.

I just don't get the feeing we have the same expectations for Ashes. My expectations are what I am playing and yours seems to be a different game. Cheers.

1970merlin

Vhaeyne there has to be some accommodation to the wider player base. Adding more PvE, single player, and quests might take 10% more money and effort given the huge investment in all the systems that will already be there. Yet that 10% could double, triple, or quadruple the number of players. You don't have to loose any of your PvP game to do this. In fact this extra income will allow your PvP game to have everything you want.

Vhaeyne

1970merlin wrote: »

Vhaeyne there has to be some accommodation to the wider player base. Adding more PvE, single player, and quests might take 10% more money and effort given the huge investment in all the systems that will already be there. Yet that 10% could double, triple, or quadruple the number of players. You don't have to loose any of your PvP game to do this. In fact this extra income will allow your PvP game to have everything you want.

That has been tried again and again for decades. It does not work. It makes the easier and easier and thus makes it less and less satisfyingly to accomplish anything in the game.

It's not about "Losing any of your PvP". It is about actually living in a social world where social interactions have life and death consequences in the game.

Think about when Thor put that guild on KOS last phase over a social dispute. The whole community had an opinion. That sort of intrigue would not have been possible in most MMORPGs.

Catering to people that need their hand held to play a video game is a recipe for disaster.

Don't worry about the income. That is not your problem or my problem. Steven is up to 55mil invested. Steven stated that he is willing to invest another 50mil. Let him cook. If he wanted a more accessible game it would be that way.

I have played all of the games on that inspiration page enough to understand exactly where Steven if coming from with Ashes. None of the inspirations are very accessible games in terms of solo play or new player experience. All of those games where successful when they were not pay to win.

To me all ashes has to do is remain difficult enough to make accomplishments feel rewarding and never go pay to win. Ashes also does not need a huge player base. More players is not always more better.

1970merlin

Vhaeyne, if Steven ignores the purpose of open development which is input that gears the game to success the outcome for the games success will be bad. Giving in 10% will save the game, purity will end in disaster.

1970merlin

Vhaeyne, name a recent game that has succeeded by ignoring the market and feedback during development. No game has succeeded in pivoting to meet the desires of the players after release. It must be done early in development. Steven need to be number le now not later. He needs to have a track for PvE now, quests now, adaptation to the market now. Don't sacrifice all the systems and PvP, just add to the game. Subtract nothing.

TheDarkSorcerer

Before the holidays, we had a leadership coaching session with an amazing coach who coach at META and Google. She shared some fantastic insights on brainstorming and idea development.

Her advice: when you start with an initial brainstorming session, don’t aim small. Begin with bold, out-of-this-world ideas. Dream big! Then, the challenge is to take those big ideas and bring them back to earth—refining them into something more realistic and actionable.

I feel like the Intrepid team’s current approach might be too ambitious. Right now, there are so many systems being proposed that it’s difficult to make each one truly exceptional. It might be better to focus on a select few core systems and make those great.

By narrowing the focus, the team can ensure these systems are polished and impactful. Otherwise, we risk spreading ourselves too thin, and some of these systems might not even resonate with users, potentially wasting valuable time and resources.

Just saying.

Vhaeyne

1970merlin wrote: »

Vhaeyne, if Steven ignores the purpose of open development which is input that gears the game to success the outcome for the games success will be bad. Giving in 10% will save the game, purity will end in disaster.

Give your feed back. That is fine. No issues from me.

Just don't be surprised if you find people who disagree with you here.

When people post opinions and feedback I disagree with the best move I can make is to post my counter opinion and feedback in hopes that Intrepid is paying attention and can see both opinions.

The only people who can ruin the game are the glorious developers at Intrepid.

1970merlin wrote: »

Vhaeyne, name a recent game that has succeeded by ignoring the market and feedback during development.

Name a game that succeeded by changing in ways that abandoned its core audience?

Name a game that succeeded by straying from the vision the creative director was passionate about?

We can play these games and compare apples to oranges all day, but its not going to change my opinions.

We can't say what Steven needs to do. All we can do is state what we like and hope that somehow in the end we end up with a good game.

I am sorry to report that I like nearly the opposite of everything you have said.

Nothing against you. We just feel differently about what makes a MMORPG good.

Volgaris

Problem: Communication and expectations.
Yes. There's a lack of communication from the testing team to the testers. I don't want to grind to test stuff. I think the grind has been tested enough. I've personally put the game on pause until the Rogue is out or there's something new to actually test. I don't want to "play" an alpha or beta. I want to play a game, but I am more than willing to test an alpha/beta and support the development with my time and money. I'm just finished testing for now.

Problem: Game built around PvP & Group play alone will not get the player base to pay for PvP and group game.
Maybe. This is completely opinion. I tend to agree with you that PvP alone isn't a strong enough pillar to keep me engaged. But there are many that will come just for the PvP.

Problem: So many systems.
Mostly No. I want tons of systems. I want to always be discovering new things. I love that about games. But every time I have to alt+tab to look something up because the game doesn't provide the information it interupts my play experience, and in general is bad. So some beginner quests that guide people through the basics is good. And they partly have it for the crafting. I don't think Alpha is the time to be creating guide quests because you'll need to rework those as the systems become fully fleshed out.

Vhaeyne

Volgaris wrote: »

Problem: Communication and expectations.
Yes. There's a lack of communication from the testing team to the testers. I don't want to grind to test stuff. I think the grind has been tested enough. I've personally put the game on pause until the Rogue is out or there's something new to actually test. I don't want to "play" an alpha or beta. I want to play a game, but I am more than willing to test an alpha/beta and support the development with my time and money. I'm just finished testing for now.

I love the grind. I live for it, and I’m a little sad that my XP grind has come to an end and I’m now focusing on grinding for materials and gear.

I can’t speak for Intrepid, but my speculation is that the reason the grind is emphasized in the test environment is because we’re not just testing the game itself—we’re also testing the social dynamics within it.

If XP were boosted by, say, 50% to make the grind easier, players might care a lot less about competing for good grind spots. To me, it seems crucial for Intrepid to gather as much data as possible about how large open-world dungeons should be while the game is still in development.

It would be a shame for them to populate a massive world with points of interest that are either too big to foster player interaction or too small to support a server’s long-term population.

I hate hearing that someone is "finished for now," especially when I’m excitedly celebrating that the servers will be up later today when I get off work.

AirborneBerserker

@Vhaeyne people like you are going to cause this game to crash and burn 3 months after launch.

This game is an MMORPG that is hard core, open word, sand box, OWPvP, guild focused. Giving no ground for people to come in and have a chance to enjoy something they already like, and saying if you don't like it fuck off isn't how you create a game, it's how you destroy one.

If you want the servers to be online for more then 6 months you better integrate some other groups. Otherwise this game will be remembered as one of the biggest failures in gaming history.

Vhaeyne

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

@Vhaeyne people like you are going to cause this game to crash and burn 3 months after launch.

This is just wild speculation on your part.

Literally the only things I want for the game are things I have heard Steven himself advocate for. The only issue I have with Ashes design is how ugly characters are currently. Otherwise the game is doing incredibly well for myself and seemingly everyone I play with.

We are putting 12-18 hour days on average into an unfinished product an loving every minute. That sounds like a successful game to me.

In my experience PvX only fails when it goes P2W.

I would prefer we try a good attempt at hardcore PvX without P2W before we start changing the formula from Stevens vision.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

This game is an MMORPG that is hard core, open word, sand box, OWPvP, guild focused. Giving no ground for people to come in and have a chance to enjoy something they already like, and saying if you don't like it fuck off isn't how you create a game, it's how you destroy one.

If you want the servers to be online for more then 6 months you better integrate some other groups. Otherwise this game will be remembered as one of the biggest failures in gaming history.

I don't go into WOW or FFXIV forums and say: "These games need mandatorily open world PvP." even though it is want I enjoy. I would expect to be told "If I don't like it fuck off." if I went into those games forums and started asking for wild changes.

Best regards.

blktauna

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I don't go into WOW or FFXIV forums and say: "These games need mandatorily open world PvP." even though it is want I enjoy. I would expect to be told "If I don't like it fuck off." if I went into those games forums and started asking for wild changes.

Best regards.

Those games aren't under development and asking for player feedback. This one is.

Vhaeyne

blktauna wrote: »

Those games aren't under development and asking for player feedback. This one is.

Both of those games are under constant active development and have forums with feedback.

Both of those games have been changed forever due to player feedback. In some cases for the worst.

More importantly, this game already has a clear vision:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Inspiration

In order for Ashes to make sense. Everything has to align with the actual vision of the game.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Name a game that succeeded by changing in ways that abandoned its core audience?

Name a game that succeeded by straying from the vision the creative director was passionate about?

EQ2.

That said, your point is still valid. EQ2 is very much unique in that it's intended audience (EQ players) were kind of abandoned in order to focus on a different group of players (players that wanted content to be the most important thing - where as EQ had the story as being equally as important, if not more).

With Ashes, if it strays from its pillars, the game will fail. EQ2 had a group of players directly adjacent to its initial target that it managed to drag in and hold, which is why it still gets expansions 20 years later.

If anything, the closeness of the audience that EQ2 eventually locked in compared to the initial target audience kind of supports your position here.

What Intrepid could do, rather than stray from its pillars, is expand past them. I'm not saying they should, but they could. What I actually expect Intrepid to do is to stick to their core concepts, and live or die by the player base interested in that kind of game.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Vhaeyne people like you are going to cause this game to crash and burn 3 months after launch.

Two points here.

First, this game will not crash and burn in 3 months. It will take at least 18 months (I will be surprised if the game is still live 6 years after launch).

Second, you can't put anything on other players/posters. We speak our thoughts, but Intrepid are the professionals. They are the ones that (should) know the market as a whole, as opposed to the opinions of only those around us. They are also the ones that make the decisions in regards to the game.

Vhaeyne is not trusted with any decisions in regards to Ashes development, thus they can not be blamed for any decisions made.

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