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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
[Feedback] Why Ashes is currently destined to fail...
D3ATHSPARK
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I want to preface this post by saying that Ashes is the only MMO I've been following for years. I really wanted this game to succeed due to it bringing back old features MMOs used to have. There is also a very talented team behind this game, and it shows with the environments, animations, etc. and the passion seems to be there. However, this game is taking a direction that will end itself in a month flat. Here is why...
ZERG GUILDS/EXPLOTING
This game caters to having numbers. Unless systems are created against this, then the game will die quickly. Every resource, every boss, every rare spawn, and every dungeon will just be camped by these guilds. This is already rampant on Vyra with these guilds camping literally everything. You can't target farm anything, and even general gathering is beyond hindered. Nothing feels worse than spending an hour mining just to find 2 nodes. Want to do a caravan? Too bad, because a tidal wave is just going to crush that instantly. These are also the guilds exploiting like crazy. Every freehold was claimed within 48 hours of the servers coming up. Most of these are not even being used. I'm not sure why Intrepid is creating systems to support toxic behavior, but this is going to chase off any regular player the moment they understand how this all works. Once those players leave and the toxic players have no one to bully they will leave too and you have a dead game.
CARAVANS
I originally thought this system was a way guilds transported their goods in bulk from node to node in order to sell them. Boy was I surprised to find out you are creating a system to literally print money and destroy the economy in a week. Again, this system also caters to toxic zerg guilds who can control every road. I'm all for meaningful PvP, but you allow guilds to be both attackers and defenders which is just wild. You can't defend the caravan due to the zerg of attackers, and you can't salvage anything as an attacker when the same guild also has defenders. This may be the worst system I've ever seen in any game, both by the PvP and economical aspects. You both kill your economy and chase off your players at the same time.
RESOURCES
Some resources are just fine. Others are beyond scarce to the point it's just painful to do. Why would someone pay a subscription to be tortured? I've never played an MMO with resources so scarce that it hurts. All the discussions about copper is a prime example. If you're going to have a resource used in just about everything for T1, it better be plentiful, and this is not the case. Currently it's just an absolute slug doing some of these professions and it feels horrible. Again, this is not something people will pay to experience. The profession system looks like a lot of fun... if you could actually get the resources. These will all be gatekept by the zerg guilds as well since they can just print money and get the best of everything. So the players who focus on the artisan route will still be overshadowed by the zerg mobs. Why mine stuff when you can print money and just buy it? This is just stupid and I feel like no thought went into this.
NON-INSTANCED WORLD/DUNGEONS
I'm an old school Ultima Online player, so this sounded so appealing. However, times have changed drastically, and this no longer seems like a viable option. Not only does this just create a lag fest in nearly every dungeon currently, but they are not going to be big enough with enough mobs to support the demand of players. Everywhere you go these groups are fighting over basic mobs, not bosses, BASIC MOBS. I have fond memories in Ultima where you roll up on another guild doing a boss and a fight breaks out to control the boss, but these days there are far more gamers and they are far more toxic. There is also information sharing that wasn't a thing back then. Information would be passed slowly person to person back then, now we have instant interactive maps letting anyone with fingers and the ability to type to find every rare spawn in the game. This is a recipe for disaster. Players want their time to be impactful and valuable when playing a game, and that will not be the case with the current direction of Ashes.
GRIEFING
We have a running joke that this game should just be renamed "Toxic Griefers/Exploiters Paradise" due to how rampant this behavior is. Normally the small instances of this are not a big deal, but with XP scaling and debt it gets to be a problem. I can only imagine how bad it will be past lvl 25. I've reported many people, yet see the same offenders day after day. Even between phases of testing. The fact these players are not being banned means they will control the fate of the game. You have people intentionally wiping groups. You have players camping/stealing rare spawns with timers. You have people exploiting caravans/freeholds. What is being done?
LEVEL SCALING
PvP is currently a complete joke in Ashes. The level scaling alone makes it so you have to be lvl 25 to even participate. Thus, only the race to max level when the game comes out will matter. Who do you think that will be? Maybe the toxic griefing zerg guilds who control every spot and mob pull/kill any groups who try to contest? I wonder how that will play out...
This kind of scaling is very negative. Every player should be able to contribute. Mages should not just one shot anyone under level 25. I know that these values have not been fine tuned, but it doesn't even feel like this has even been discussed yet with it's current state. This testing is the first impressions for a lot of people, and while it doesn't need to be perfectly tuned it shouldn't feel completely one sided. Between the level scaling and gatekept gear PvP will be very one sided in Ashes.
_____
I really want this game to succeed, but it seems to be on a very bad course. I've probably put way more time into this game than the average player testing as much as I can. However, I'm now at a point where I feel like I'm just wasting my time. I can't even test things due to these toxic zerg guilds. My time doesn't seem valued or respected. The decision to only have two servers this phase was a MAJOR mistake. Things were not this bad last phase, but now with all these toxic zerg guilds starting on Vyra it's virtually unplayable. Unless you make the world big enough to avoid these players, or have enough servers this game stands no chance.
We are two weeks into testing and I'm probably done for this phase. I'm not going to submit myself to this negative environment until solutions are made on Intrepids end. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. I really hope you developers take a step back and reevaluate these systems. You will bleed testers quickly in it's current state.
I get that this is an alpha and that there is a lot of work to be done still. This post is merely to bring awareness to these issues by someone who has been playing/analyzing games for 30 years. I believe Intrepid can create systems to battle these issues, and I hope they take them seriously for the sake of this game's future.
ZERG GUILDS/EXPLOTING
This game caters to having numbers. Unless systems are created against this, then the game will die quickly. Every resource, every boss, every rare spawn, and every dungeon will just be camped by these guilds. This is already rampant on Vyra with these guilds camping literally everything. You can't target farm anything, and even general gathering is beyond hindered. Nothing feels worse than spending an hour mining just to find 2 nodes. Want to do a caravan? Too bad, because a tidal wave is just going to crush that instantly. These are also the guilds exploiting like crazy. Every freehold was claimed within 48 hours of the servers coming up. Most of these are not even being used. I'm not sure why Intrepid is creating systems to support toxic behavior, but this is going to chase off any regular player the moment they understand how this all works. Once those players leave and the toxic players have no one to bully they will leave too and you have a dead game.
CARAVANS
I originally thought this system was a way guilds transported their goods in bulk from node to node in order to sell them. Boy was I surprised to find out you are creating a system to literally print money and destroy the economy in a week. Again, this system also caters to toxic zerg guilds who can control every road. I'm all for meaningful PvP, but you allow guilds to be both attackers and defenders which is just wild. You can't defend the caravan due to the zerg of attackers, and you can't salvage anything as an attacker when the same guild also has defenders. This may be the worst system I've ever seen in any game, both by the PvP and economical aspects. You both kill your economy and chase off your players at the same time.
RESOURCES
Some resources are just fine. Others are beyond scarce to the point it's just painful to do. Why would someone pay a subscription to be tortured? I've never played an MMO with resources so scarce that it hurts. All the discussions about copper is a prime example. If you're going to have a resource used in just about everything for T1, it better be plentiful, and this is not the case. Currently it's just an absolute slug doing some of these professions and it feels horrible. Again, this is not something people will pay to experience. The profession system looks like a lot of fun... if you could actually get the resources. These will all be gatekept by the zerg guilds as well since they can just print money and get the best of everything. So the players who focus on the artisan route will still be overshadowed by the zerg mobs. Why mine stuff when you can print money and just buy it? This is just stupid and I feel like no thought went into this.
NON-INSTANCED WORLD/DUNGEONS
I'm an old school Ultima Online player, so this sounded so appealing. However, times have changed drastically, and this no longer seems like a viable option. Not only does this just create a lag fest in nearly every dungeon currently, but they are not going to be big enough with enough mobs to support the demand of players. Everywhere you go these groups are fighting over basic mobs, not bosses, BASIC MOBS. I have fond memories in Ultima where you roll up on another guild doing a boss and a fight breaks out to control the boss, but these days there are far more gamers and they are far more toxic. There is also information sharing that wasn't a thing back then. Information would be passed slowly person to person back then, now we have instant interactive maps letting anyone with fingers and the ability to type to find every rare spawn in the game. This is a recipe for disaster. Players want their time to be impactful and valuable when playing a game, and that will not be the case with the current direction of Ashes.
GRIEFING
We have a running joke that this game should just be renamed "Toxic Griefers/Exploiters Paradise" due to how rampant this behavior is. Normally the small instances of this are not a big deal, but with XP scaling and debt it gets to be a problem. I can only imagine how bad it will be past lvl 25. I've reported many people, yet see the same offenders day after day. Even between phases of testing. The fact these players are not being banned means they will control the fate of the game. You have people intentionally wiping groups. You have players camping/stealing rare spawns with timers. You have people exploiting caravans/freeholds. What is being done?
LEVEL SCALING
PvP is currently a complete joke in Ashes. The level scaling alone makes it so you have to be lvl 25 to even participate. Thus, only the race to max level when the game comes out will matter. Who do you think that will be? Maybe the toxic griefing zerg guilds who control every spot and mob pull/kill any groups who try to contest? I wonder how that will play out...
This kind of scaling is very negative. Every player should be able to contribute. Mages should not just one shot anyone under level 25. I know that these values have not been fine tuned, but it doesn't even feel like this has even been discussed yet with it's current state. This testing is the first impressions for a lot of people, and while it doesn't need to be perfectly tuned it shouldn't feel completely one sided. Between the level scaling and gatekept gear PvP will be very one sided in Ashes.
_____
I really want this game to succeed, but it seems to be on a very bad course. I've probably put way more time into this game than the average player testing as much as I can. However, I'm now at a point where I feel like I'm just wasting my time. I can't even test things due to these toxic zerg guilds. My time doesn't seem valued or respected. The decision to only have two servers this phase was a MAJOR mistake. Things were not this bad last phase, but now with all these toxic zerg guilds starting on Vyra it's virtually unplayable. Unless you make the world big enough to avoid these players, or have enough servers this game stands no chance.
We are two weeks into testing and I'm probably done for this phase. I'm not going to submit myself to this negative environment until solutions are made on Intrepids end. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. I really hope you developers take a step back and reevaluate these systems. You will bleed testers quickly in it's current state.
I get that this is an alpha and that there is a lot of work to be done still. This post is merely to bring awareness to these issues by someone who has been playing/analyzing games for 30 years. I believe Intrepid can create systems to battle these issues, and I hope they take them seriously for the sake of this game's future.
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Comments
If you have something constructive to say, perhaps consider titling it so that people do not get the immediate impression (whether accurate or not) that this is just another unconstructive negative doomsday post.
I agree with everything said. There's a lot of interesting systems being put forth but the toxic attitudes of a certain element will drive new people from the game. The lack of feeling you are contributing or achieving something at every level will push prospective players away.
I'm hoping the crafting issues are thought about and that the next updates address some of the more obvious concerns.
I mean the post was more criticism than constructive criticism... but I was in a mood when posting it. I honestly also feel like most of our voices aren't even being heard or acknowledged. For example, they just made a post about the testing of Befallen Forge... but on Vyra it is an unplayable area due to the constant griefing, and nothing is being done about it.
Beyond casual leveling I don't plan to do any serious testing this phase. They butchered that when they did this two server thing. These servers are miserable to be on with how many toxic zerg guilds are roaming around.
They aren't going to take people off of other aspects of the game to deal with issues some people are having on some servers.
Those issues will be dealt with when the team that is respobsible get around to their next pass on the appropriate system, mechanic of content piece.
Remember, this isn't a live game, it is a test. Game breaking issues are not something Intrepid should be sending people off to deal with immediately like they would once the game is live.
It's all good (and expected) to see things that you consider wrong or bad about the game. I have my own list of things along these lines. However, expecting anything to be done about it in the same amount of time you would expect something to be done about them on a live game is completely unreasonable.
You signed up for a test. This is what a test is. Things are broken and don't get fixed immediately.
Please Intrepid, fix the basics before you push out new content. Build some solid foundations first, or we all wake up to a wipe one day.
Blown past falling sands…
Zerg guilds controlling everything the way they do now does not seem to me like it will be possible when the giant world map of entire Verra opens up at launch - they simply cannot be everywhere all at once when the map is 10x larger. And I think the entire world map opening up would also solve a lot of the gathering and caravaning issues (though imo caravans are not supposed to be a riskfree situation to "just" print gold - there is a reason you can just sell your glint to the vendor for instant safe profit). And this is due to the game not having a lot of options for quick traveling.
Also, regarding "systems in place to balance quantity vs quality" - the guild percs are supposed to be one of the combatants to fight the zerg-systems, and these are not implemented as of yet. That said though, it does seem like zerg guilds are meant to have an advantage at many things; the game is meant to be social and wants to encourage players to interact with one another. The idea is probably that huge zergs wanting more ground will eventually lead to them fighting between each other, leaving smaller communities and solo players to be able to "play the game in peace" as the big guilds fight it out. Whenever this will be a reality or not remaings to be seen.
As side from the Crystal Ball prediction, the detailed feedback from everyone is exactly what is required to prevent such an outcome.
but acknowledgement goes a long way.
This is the acknowledgement that I want from the staff. Acknowledgement is necessary or people think they were not heard and will then yell louder.
Tired method of dismissal. We know this is not done. No one expects immediate action on 99% of the issues pointed out. Some things, like certain disciplinary actions, should be dealt with asap.
I don't disagree that Intrepid needs to improve in regards to this but to be frank many of the issues here are due to phase 2 opening when it did. Starting P2 right before a major holiday break was a huge mistake, which allowed many many issues to persist and fester with little to nothing being done or said because an overwhelming proportion of the the dev team were off on a holiday break.
Phase 2 should not have opened up until the Christmas/New Year break was finished, on the 6th or even the 13th of January, and could then be monitored effectively and problems are dealt with in a generally timely manner.
I do have a small amount of hope that changes will start being implemented faster and more consistently sometime next week, now that the holiday break is over, and most of the devs should be back to work. If they aren't back then frankly Intrepid needs to rethink their holiday break systems, much more than 2 weeks is just ridiculous, and sure as an employee it would be absolutely fantastic but from a customer service/satisfaction stand point its to much. Of if you want to give out ridiculously long paid time off holidays don't schedule important projects to start just a couple days before all your employees bail from the office.
No it doesn't.
If you are having an issue that is appeased by it being acknowledged, you really don't have an issue.
Yes it does, it does exactly that.
You've obviously never learned about conflict resolution.
Ignorance isn't endearing.
A voiced concern/complaint being acknowledged greatly helps the situation because it's multifaceted. Even if someone is objectively wrong it's their pov and you can't simply dismiss it.
If someone approaches with an issue and you give them your dead fish eyes, you've just made the problem worse by 50%-100%.
I'm talking about life, not alluding to IS's handling of bugs.
I have a testing issue that needs to be acknowledged so I know its been seen and can move off to other things.
Honestly the gatekeeping in here is wild.
Any? How about not twisting my point to the OP that any post titled 'destined to fail' might create that impression?
It would be like me starting a thread titled "PVE Players are all Whining Babies and will Never be Happy with Anything"
Would you expect my thread/post to be anything other than negative bias toward PVE players?
I still have not read the OP's post but had the title been "Improvements I see that will help Ashes Succeed", I definitely would have.
I did. Here is the TLDR
Yeah it's annoying, like a bunch of pissy teens defending their iPhone.
It doesn't help the game.
Oh, it is not a problem at all for me.
Lets go extreme, lets say your issue is that you have cancer.
That being acknowledge doesn't help you.
How about your issue is that you've been waiting in line for the DMV for 35 minutes. Sure, someone could acknowledge you've been waiting a while and you may feel better - but this really isn't actually an issue in the first place.
If being acknowledged solves your "issue", all you have is a sense of disatisfaction, not an actual issue. An issue is that something is wrong. Acknowledgment doesn't fix that wrong thing, so if you have an issue before it is acknowledged, you still have that same issue after it has been acknowledged. Crying for acknowledgement is literally just a cry for attention.
No you don't.
You have no issue, there is nothing that is stopping you moving on.
If you disagree, feel free to explain what this barrier is that is preventing you from moving on, but where that barrier will be removed by the simple act of Intrepid acknowledging said barrier.
This isn't gatekeeping, it is you people being princesses about shit.
With the recent rampant exploiting and griefing, where it's formerly just been on one server (these people had been contained on Resna), I don't feel any desire to even log in.
Client performance has taken a dive for me in phase 2, even after I got a CPU upgrade. It's gotten objectively worse for me with the newer versions of the game.
Characters still look like monkeys. The hair of the new humans is an outright slap in the face, lol.
I'll probably be back when Summoner comes out, and if they couldn't fix the community by then (ban exploiters, start up more servers), maybe it's time to forget about it completely and move on.
Never met anyone one that been through a 12 step program?
First step is admitting there is a problem. If the devs don't respond that implies either indifference, or ignorance. Neither being good.
That being said this isn't the place to look for a response, the known issues button exists for a reason.
Your advice is worthwhile. I'll keep on that.
You mean like when they said this is an alpha test and there WILL be bugs?
That is all the "admitting" Intrepid need to do. They don't need to go out and appologise to each tester that comes across each bug.
However, my point isn't with Intrepid, it is with people that feel they need acknowledgement, as if that fixes anything.
Once again, if you have an issue that requires an actual fix, an acknoewledgement means nothing. The fix is what you are actually after. If you are happy after the acknowledgement but before the fix, then you never had an issue in the first place, you had a case of wanting to be a pretty little princess.
An acknowledgement alleviates anxiety and helps relax a player because they know even if the problem isn't being fixed they are on a list to be fixed.
A blanket statement isn't the same as saying we are fixing/aware of problem x.
That being said some people need to accept that this is an Alpha and they can't track every problem.
For example i lost an 80g caravan the other night and it only earned me 16g before it got destroyed so sometimes they dont pay off either :P
In all MMOs with free PvP in the world, griefing was part of the gameplay.
In Ultima Online, you could easily be locked in a cave with monsters and then have all your loot taken. Your house robbed, etc. And no one complained because it was part of the game.
In Lineage 2, you can do whatever you want with another player. kill him. control him. anything. And no one complains because it's open PvP.
And in many more or less successful projects, rivalry and competition only enliven the game.
Why, when a group of people comes to a monster spot and another group is already there, should it leave?
If the game mechanics allow you to kick another group out of the desired place in different ways?
Killing players. or dropping a bunch of monsters on them. All this is a struggle for the best farming spot.
If you can't protect your place, then go to another one.
The same thing with resource extraction. If you are controlled when you are extracting a resource, then the person has entered the battle. Attack him and protect your resource. And don't complain that he is so bad that he prevents you from extracting resources. He, just like you, is looking for it and is ready to fight you for it. And you are just afraid and not ready to take risks for the sake of your prey.
Complain. But Ashes should be free to choose her actions.
Don't like the zerg? Join a guild and fight him.
If you are a lone player, then there is no point in complaining that you are being killed by groups or not allowed to do something. A group has more opportunities and responsibilities than a lone player who plays 1-4 hours a day.
Think for yourself whether you want a competitive game or another PVE grinder where there is no excitement or competition.
Those who think that this game is toxic should change the game to some kind of survival against mobs.
How about you mind your own business and dont spoil others players fun? Or share mobs,locations,resources. Is that even possible in this era? This generation seems so lost. They want it all for themselves.
Was leveling an alt The other day,was low HP after a fight,a cleric came by and tossed me a heal. Faith in humanity restored! But that was just 1/1000. The other 999 would have just pulled more mobs on me just for me to die and they can loot what little glint i had. That is a major problem. The people this game has gathered.... Like every max lvl caracter now wears lvl 10 enchanted +8 gear. Just to get The stats. 400+ magic/phy Power.How is that intended?
Beyond the collisions being broken,stats and abillities not working as intended,all manner of bugs,The player base is at fault. Its The same people that were ganking Asmongold or try to kill mr. Shariff everytime hes on.
Oh and pls stop calling him Steven,he is not your buddy down The street 😂😂😂
This is an alpha, people shouldn't feel the need to have each bug they find acknowledged.
No one complained because the devs thought about that and item loss was not a big deal. Almost everything in Ultima Online was easily replaceable. That is not the case in Ashes. There were also far less people playing UO back then so it wasn't a constant occurence.
This is the foolish logic that kills games. Those players do leave, and once the clowns have no one to bully they follow suit resulting in a dead game.
This thread has broken down to a lot of people just insulting each other which is a shame. It proves a lot of the points I made about toxicity, and why this game is in trouble. I'm going to create more detailed posts on each issue and let this one go.