How to fix the EXTREME server drop off we are experiencing.

1970merlin

Ashes has the problem that if you start late or can't' grind for the 1st 72 hours you feel like you are too far behind. That is not good for the grinders in the long run because people don't stay once they feel left behind.

I think Intrepid will have to nerf progression the 1st week or two for every new server. What I mean by this is the following: Once someone is more than 5 levels ahead of the average player, they greatly increase the experience needed to advance. I understand there may be strong opposition among the sweaty, but this will ensure a stronger server and thus better growth for nodes in the long run, and more people staying on the server.

Also, of course, exploiters need serious punishment.

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Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I would have to assume there is a system, mechanic or some such other than a mentor program that encourages guilds to hunt new players out to see if they would like to join. I don't see it as a direct result of a mentor system.

It's my bad for equating the two, but that first one is what I'm talking about. Push newbies towards guilds, while guilds themselves benefit from it as well. Newbies get to learn the game in a community, while guilds want to provide that community cause it's beneficial for them as well.

That's what I want from the mentor system.

I agree that a system that accomplishes this would be great, I just don't know what that system looks like.

To me, if EQ2 players were doing this before the game had a mentor system, and Archeage players were never doing this despite having one, it isn't the mentor system you need to look at.

Perhaps it is more to do with the over all player culture than any one system - though right now, I really don't know.

Edit; thinking on this some more, I think it comes down to basic respect - but respect that the game shows it's players.

EQ2 treated it's players with a level of respect, and it's players treated each other with a level of respect as a result. Archeage never treated it's players with any respect.

I don't see a lot of respect for players in Ashes so far.

Veeshan

problem is alot of people consider themself done since they have full set of lvl 20 gear and they cant realy progress till journeyman benches are built so server kinda in a weird limbo state where people cant relay progress gear wise outside of enchanting lvl 10 stuff which most will be replaced with journeyman benches.

there also no endgame loops atm outside of getting caravan runs for gold that they cant spend due to above reason

when more loops come online it probaly pick up but atm most people playing waiting game and considered them in a completed state with current benches.

Aszkalon

1970merlin wrote: »

Ashes has the problem that if you start late or can't' grind for the 1st 72 hours you feel like you are too far behind. That is not good for the grinders in the long run because people don't stay once they feel left behind.

While i completely get what you mean - and i am not even saying you are necessarily wrong,

-> that is not the Problem actually. In any MMO there will always be People who join the Competition and Adventure significantly later than others.

What is so hard, is the fact - that similar like in Planetside 2 - > you are "completely" fxxxed if you can not find any Group to efficiently work together with. Either sooner - or later.

Haaah. I don't wish to experience it again. At honestly "any" Point in time. The "fact" and Experience that You need to forge Bonds either "BEFORE" you play the Game at all,

or while Your Character is already created and falling behind for either Days, Weeks, or "MONTHS" or even half to full a Year -> only because You didn't already had a well-coordinated Group right at the Beginning.

Imagine a thing like "DISCORD" deciding over who is the most efficient Group in the Game. Oh wait. It is. This is the biggest Cockblock and Offturner imaginable.

( Yes i admit it. I like Teamspeak way more. Now stone me for it, lol. )

folkb

I liked the shadowbane method where leveling became pretty trivial. It was all about the build and equipment.

Xeeg

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Ashes already has a chatch up system for leveling.

The node system slows people down by making them travel between nodes to complete all tasks needed. This slows people down a bit. People coming in a week later will have much less traveling to get what they need.

This is not where the problem lies. I would argue gear is a bigger problem.

I was thinking about this too, actually a player showing up a couple weeks late has HUGE advantages.

-More resources on the ground: While copper is still being farmed heavily, you have much more access to T1 gatherables across the map after the first two weeks. Alot less downtime searching and finding nothing.

-Nodes and services are already leveled up: Easier to purchase things from node vendors and get your professions progressing.

-Players shops have more gear: Can just buy basic gear from player shops and not need to grind for items as much.

In actuality, a person showing up 2-3 weeks after launch can catch up MUCH faster than the majority of people grinding from launch, just from access to gear in the shops alone. Solo/small group exp grinding can be incredibly fast and efficient if you are geared.

AirborneBerserker

Xeeg wrote: »

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Ashes already has a chatch up system for leveling.

The node system slows people down by making them travel between nodes to complete all tasks needed. This slows people down a bit. People coming in a week later will have much less traveling to get what they need.

This is not where the problem lies. I would argue gear is a bigger problem.

I was thinking about this too, actually a player showing up a couple weeks late has HUGE advantages.

-More resources on the ground: While copper is still being farmed heavily, you have much more access to T1 gatherables across the map after the first two weeks. Alot less downtime searching and finding nothing.

-Nodes and services are already leveled up: Easier to purchase things from node vendors and get your professions progressing.

-Players shops have more gear: Can just buy basic gear from player shops and not need to grind for items as much.

In actuality, a person showing up 2-3 weeks after launch can catch up MUCH faster than the majority of people grinding from launch, just from access to gear in the shops alone. Solo/small group exp grinding can be incredibly fast and efficient if you are geared.

It has some advantages, not huge ones.

eyawn

everyone forgets, that there were people carried to max level. now these people aren't good enough to hang at max level so they gank low levels to make themselves feel better.

simple fix, ya wanna fight low levels, your level should be equalized. meaning they go down to that person's level, and have to grind back up. this keeps the economy going too. eventually everyone will be max level, and the low level gear just sits on the market place, helping drive down prices.

griefing shouldn't be a thing. for the longevity and health of the game.

daveywavey

eyawn wrote: »

everyone forgets, that there were people carried to max level. now these people aren't good enough to hang at max level so they gank low levels to make themselves feel better.

simple fix, ya wanna fight low levels, your level should be equalized. meaning they go down to that person's level, and have to grind back up. this keeps the economy going too. eventually everyone will be max level, and the low level gear just sits on the market place, helping drive down prices.

griefing shouldn't be a thing. for the longevity and health of the game.

LOL, still salty after your mistake with the caravan, I see. I mean, if you honestly think that a Level 25 should be de-levelled to Level 3 simply for stopping a Level 3 from stealing the items from their corpse, then maybe you'd be better off with a game that doesn't include PvP. Candy Crush is still going, right?

Azherae

Xeeg wrote: »

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

Ashes already has a chatch up system for leveling.

The node system slows people down by making them travel between nodes to complete all tasks needed. This slows people down a bit. People coming in a week later will have much less traveling to get what they need.

This is not where the problem lies. I would argue gear is a bigger problem.

I was thinking about this too, actually a player showing up a couple weeks late has HUGE advantages.

-More resources on the ground: While copper is still being farmed heavily, you have much more access to T1 gatherables across the map after the first two weeks. Alot less downtime searching and finding nothing.

-Nodes and services are already leveled up: Easier to purchase things from node vendors and get your professions progressing.

-Players shops have more gear: Can just buy basic gear from player shops and not need to grind for items as much.

In actuality, a person showing up 2-3 weeks after launch can catch up MUCH faster than the majority of people grinding from launch, just from access to gear in the shops alone. Solo/small group exp grinding can be incredibly fast and efficient if you are geared.

Games also have really good and obvious ways of improving their catch-up style mechanics without causing serious issues, these days, because they have had so many years to learn how players behave.

Sure, it's easier in games with more Instanced Content, but even a new studio like Intrepid also has access to some veterans who probably know how to shift player incentives to make them do things that incidentally help or boost lower level, 'casual', or otherwise less invested players.

As long as the Economy isn't trash-tier, new players will almost certainly not have any problems, even without Instances. At worst they would need to introduce some untradeable 'Token' style item for access to some specific gear (FF11 style: Beastman's Seals, etc), or structure their few mid-level Instances to have optional Level Caps but also give the option for more rewards when cleared with the Level Cap active (e.g. Throne and Liberty or New World could both easily do this since they both have systems for letting the player spend less time but still have a limit on the conversion of some other Token into Rewards for successes).

Ashes already has signs of both systems, combined with proper gear tiers. The lack of Economic limiters might become an issue if instances or 'Pop Items' are used this way in AoC, but that was going to be an issue no matter what.

A game with actual social dynamics where the new player isn't instantly a pariah for 'not knowing every mechanic' can afford to solve this sort of thing directly through gameplay.

eyawn

daveywavey wrote: »

eyawn wrote: »

everyone forgets, that there were people carried to max level. now these people aren't good enough to hang at max level so they gank low levels to make themselves feel better.

simple fix, ya wanna fight low levels, your level should be equalized. meaning they go down to that person's level, and have to grind back up. this keeps the economy going too. eventually everyone will be max level, and the low level gear just sits on the market place, helping drive down prices.

griefing shouldn't be a thing. for the longevity and health of the game.

LOL, still salty after your mistake with the caravan, I see. I mean, if you honestly think that a Level 25 should be de-levelled to Level 3 simply for stopping a Level 3 from stealing the items from their corpse, then maybe you'd be better off with a game that doesn't include PvP. Candy Crush is still going, right?

how is that pvp?

the intrepid doesn't want you to kill low levels, that's why they put a corruption system in. to help mitigate it.

the greifing from asmoundgold and intrepid banning people, means they don't want it.

but you seem to think, that killing low levels is what the game wants. reality will be a huge wake up to you, when ya get out of your parents basements.

Azherae

eyawn wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

eyawn wrote: »

everyone forgets, that there were people carried to max level. now these people aren't good enough to hang at max level so they gank low levels to make themselves feel better.

simple fix, ya wanna fight low levels, your level should be equalized. meaning they go down to that person's level, and have to grind back up. this keeps the economy going too. eventually everyone will be max level, and the low level gear just sits on the market place, helping drive down prices.

griefing shouldn't be a thing. for the longevity and health of the game.

LOL, still salty after your mistake with the caravan, I see. I mean, if you honestly think that a Level 25 should be de-levelled to Level 3 simply for stopping a Level 3 from stealing the items from their corpse, then maybe you'd be better off with a game that doesn't include PvP. Candy Crush is still going, right?

how is that pvp?

the intrepid doesn't want you to kill low levels, that's why they put a corruption system in. to help mitigate it.

the greifing from asmoundgold and intrepid banning people, means they don't want it.

but you seem to think, that killing low levels is what the game wants. reality will be a huge wake up to you, when ya get out of your parents basements.

The game is fine with low levels being defeated if they attempt to participate in content that is not appropriate for their level.

Like... almost every other MMO, basically.

I don't think I actually know any PvP games where the low levels of a guild are autoprotected in a Guild War, for example, simply because they are low level.

I think maybe BDO does this, since it has that PvP protection for under-50, but the system for 'setting certain members as being protected from the Guild War' is separate and I don't think it even cares what level they are.

Let's please not start viewing the flaws in the Caravan system or player incentives in Node relationships, as 'issues with PvP' or 'issues that require Level Scaling'. There are appropriate times to use that/bring up PvP issues, but the problem with Caravans is definitely the Caravans (for those who think there is a problem at all).

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I don't think I actually know any PvP games where the low levels of a guild are autoprotected in a Guild War, for example, simply because they are low level.

Funnily enough, the Academy system from L2 (that's the "guild mentorship system" I've been referencing) did exactly this.
https://legacy-lineage2.com/news/chronicle5_02.html

When in a clan war or a siege with Academy members:

Experience penalties apply even when killed by opposing members of a clan in a mutual war.
Academy members cannot see an enemy mark displayed on the enemy clan members’ character name.
Academy members have no relationship during a clan war or siege war.

And as you can see above on that page, Academy would be a whole separate branch of the guild structure and would be purely for lowbie chars (pretty much equivalent to sub25 chars in Ashes).

daveywavey

eyawn wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

eyawn wrote: »

everyone forgets, that there were people carried to max level. now these people aren't good enough to hang at max level so they gank low levels to make themselves feel better.

simple fix, ya wanna fight low levels, your level should be equalized. meaning they go down to that person's level, and have to grind back up. this keeps the economy going too. eventually everyone will be max level, and the low level gear just sits on the market place, helping drive down prices.

griefing shouldn't be a thing. for the longevity and health of the game.

LOL, still salty after your mistake with the caravan, I see. I mean, if you honestly think that a Level 25 should be de-levelled to Level 3 simply for stopping a Level 3 from stealing the items from their corpse, then maybe you'd be better off with a game that doesn't include PvP. Candy Crush is still going, right?

how is that pvp?

the intrepid doesn't want you to kill low levels, that's why they put a corruption system in. to help mitigate it.

the greifing from asmoundgold and intrepid banning people, means they don't want it.

but you seem to think, that killing low levels is what the game wants. reality will be a huge wake up to you, when ya get out of your parents basements.

The Corruption System is inactive in Caravan fights, and when you take someone's loot from their corpse, you're automatically flagged Purple for PvP.
The game absolutely does want PvP in those instances. It's been specifically designed and coded that way.

If you engage with a PvP function, you're open for PvP.

SmileGurney

1970merlin wrote: »

Ashes has the problem that if you start late or can't' grind for the 1st 72 hours you feel like you are too far behind. That is not good for the grinders in the long run because people don't stay once they feel left behind.

I think Intrepid will have to nerf progression the 1st week or two for every new server. What I mean by this is the following: Once someone is more than 5 levels ahead of the average player, they greatly increase the experience needed to advance. I understand there may be strong opposition among the sweaty, but this will ensure a stronger server and thus better growth for nodes in the long run, and more people staying on the server.

Also, of course, exploiters need serious punishment.

This issue will persist by design. If you think the levelling difference is a problem, just wait until you hit the gear grind wall. Then you will actually feel left behind as multiple "end-game" game systems like caravans, guild wars, node wars etc are really gear dependant atm.

Volgaris

SmileGurney wrote: »

1970merlin wrote: »

Ashes has the problem that if you start late or can't' grind for the 1st 72 hours you feel like you are too far behind. That is not good for the grinders in the long run because people don't stay once they feel left behind.

I think Intrepid will have to nerf progression the 1st week or two for every new server. What I mean by this is the following: Once someone is more than 5 levels ahead of the average player, they greatly increase the experience needed to advance. I understand there may be strong opposition among the sweaty, but this will ensure a stronger server and thus better growth for nodes in the long run, and more people staying on the server.

Also, of course, exploiters need serious punishment.

This issue will persist by design. If you think the levelling difference is a problem, just wait until you hit the gear grind wall. Then you will actually feel left behind as multiple "end-game" game systems like caravans, guild wars, node wars etc are really gear dependant atm.

Yep...
This will be the point when the mass of the player base will start to drop. The systems favor the zerg meta, which will act as a gatekeeper for many players. The zerg groups are propped up and the single guilds are punished creating a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots. A player in a small guild will have to work 10 times harder getting gear to compete against the zerg group which tilts the already off balance scale of power. I'm only focusing on the zerg meta here but there's other issues with material gathering and balance issues at play that still tend to favor the zerg groups. The odd thing is these groups don't need anything to favor them to compete. The message is clear... "Go big or go home." No single guild will ever be able to compete with a zerg group. Even if it's a single castle battle with controlled numbers on the battle field the zerg will still have a gear advantage. And the gear advantage weights heavy on those scales.

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