Best stuff/time investment in the game comes from low APM activities - not a fan

I like the combat in this game, and i like using my character and his abilities. It really feels good to move around and use your class toolkit.

But a lot of the best stuff in the game doesn't come from using abilities. It comes from the other activities that make up the game, such as:

1. Caravans: Very low Action Per Minute activity. Most of the time. And even if you do get attacked and fight, you have travel time to deal with. ~10 APM?
2. Traveling: A significant part of this game is traveling. It is a major time investment. I'm sure they have analytics on it. Not a very high APM activity either. ~20 APM?
3. Boss camping: Sure, the boss fight itself might involve a decent combat APM, but what then? Maybe kill the surrounding monsters, but if another team is there they can snipe it off of you. Safer to spend some time waiting to be sure to tag, and this will only be worse the more random the boss spawn timer is. Or traveling between bosses. End result is a lower APM gameplay overall.
4. Gathering: Gathering is mostly traveling (low apm) plus clicking and waiting ~5s, so maybe still 20 APM?
5. Processing: Running to and from storage to the processor and loading up, again maybe 20 APM?
6. Crafting: Probably about 20 APM still
7. Planning your character progression and working with others: 0 APM
8. Waiting on team, LFG, etc. : 1 APM
9. Spamming global chat for shitzngigglez: 300 APM

I dunno about anyone else, but it would be nice if we could find a way to make some kind of "opt-in" way to use abilities or something during these activities at least for something to do.

Heck, I wrote this whole post while running a caravan. What does that tell you?

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Endowed

Spreadsheets of Creation.

Otr

Xeeg wrote: »

Heck, I wrote this whole post while running a caravan. What does that tell you?

The system would be more successful if would involve more mobility:
- attackers should chase to kill and loot easily
- transporters should try to move unseen or move fast with some chance to escape if they have less load or lower defense
- spotting other players early should be important. As it is now, with popups and moving at snail pace, doesn't seem to be fun. Might work for the mayoral and castle caravans.

Azherae

For the most part, that is the playstyle this game has almost always gone for, from the beginning.

The game is more like a city builder/Civ game with some battles than anything else, and the features offered by the game were things that by nature have low true APM. Caravans and the specific spread of mobs are making this worse, yes, but that is technically a 'small issue' when your target audience are veterans of older, slower MMOs.

Since New World is faster and has actual Action-y Combat, Throne and Liberty is more complex and has complex design dynamics within its Classes, and FF14 is mostly story-based and solo/instanced, none of those games quite match this audience.

Those people need a game to play, Ashes of Creation is not for everyone, etc.

Steven is a Pathfinder DM who set out to make a Worldbuild tier game with one of the slowest possible mechanics (Nodes) built into it as its base, who now spends a meaningful amount of time running RP events and probably discussing how to tune the game to be more like EVE.

Endowed wrote: »

Spreadsheets of Creation.

I've got no problems with the idea that they can try to be more inclusive of playstyles/preferences like yours @Xeeg, but they'd almost certainly end up not being any more beneficial in terms of time investment. So from my view it sounds like you're asking them to add the ability for you to hit more buttons/keys for no benefit relative to others.

Again, I do not have issue with this, as a player who foolishly chooses the high APM/DPM playstyle even when it is explicitly worse than the simpler one and requires fiendish hours of practice just to match up.

But this was always gonna be a slow MMO even within MMOs. When the economy is working better you should be able to focus on a higher APM activity, but 'obviously' the low APM ones got put into the game first.

AirborneBerserker

Xeeg wrote: »

I like the combat in this game, and i like using my character and his abilities. It really feels good to move around and use your class toolkit.

But a lot of the best stuff in the game doesn't come from using abilities. It comes from the other activities that make up the game, such as:

1. Caravans: Very low Action Per Minute activity. Most of the time. And even if you do get attacked and fight, you have travel time to deal with. ~10 APM?
2. Traveling: A significant part of this game is traveling. It is a major time investment. I'm sure they have analytics on it. Not a very high APM activity either. ~20 APM?
3. Boss camping: Sure, the boss fight itself might involve a decent combat APM, but what then? Maybe kill the surrounding monsters, but if another team is there they can snipe it off of you. Safer to spend some time waiting to be sure to tag, and this will only be worse the more random the boss spawn timer is. Or traveling between bosses. End result is a lower APM gameplay overall.
4. Gathering: Gathering is mostly traveling (low apm) plus clicking and waiting ~5s, so maybe still 20 APM?
5. Processing: Running to and from storage to the processor and loading up, again maybe 20 APM?
6. Crafting: Probably about 20 APM still
7. Planning your character progression and working with others: 0 APM
8. Waiting on team, LFG, etc. : 1 APM
9. Spamming global chat for shitzngigglez: 300 APM

I dunno about anyone else, but it would be nice if we could find a way to make some kind of "opt-in" way to use abilities or something during these activities at least for something to do.

Heck, I wrote this whole post while running a caravan. What does that tell you?

It's a sand box lite game. They can't fill every second with stuff to do. That's kind of up to you.

Ludullu

Let's look at the bigger picture here though.

Xeeg wrote: »

1. Caravans: Very low Action Per Minute activity. Most of the time. And even if you do get attacked and fight, you have travel time to deal with. ~10 APM?

You need to grind mobs for glint to run a good caravan. Grinding mobs is a ton of apm for a ton of time, so the overall apm is way higher.

Xeeg wrote: »

2. Traveling: A significant part of this game is traveling. It is a major time investment. I'm sure they have analytics on it. Not a very high APM activity either. ~20 APM?

What is the purpose of your travel? I'd imagine quite often it'll be grinding mobs, so the same as point 1.

Xeeg wrote: »

3. Boss camping: Sure, the boss fight itself might involve a decent combat APM, but what then? Maybe kill the surrounding monsters, but if another team is there they can snipe it off of you. Safer to spend some time waiting to be sure to tag, and this will only be worse the more random the boss spawn timer is. Or traveling between bosses. End result is a lower APM gameplay overall.

If they manage to design wars correctly, all of this time will be filled with pvp, which is an insanely high apm. In L2, with "+-a few hours" timers on bosses, those float hours would be filled with pvp, because at any given point you want YOUR guild to be the one that gets the boss first. And with even a slightly long travel time from your respawn to the boss location - you want to ALWAYS keep your enemy dead and outside of the boss location. So, again, super high apm, if designed right.

Xeeg wrote: »

4. Gathering: Gathering is mostly traveling (low apm) plus clicking and waiting ~5s, so maybe still 20 APM?
5. Processing: Running to and from storage to the processor and loading up, again maybe 20 APM?
6. Crafting: Probably about 20 APM still

In a free trade economy all of these are optional, because you can just buy that shit. And to buy stuff you need money, which is mobs. High apm

Xeeg wrote: »

7. Planning your character progression and working with others: 0 APM

Or you can just go unga bunga and have high apm. Optional.

Xeeg wrote: »

8. Waiting on team, LFG, etc. : 1 APM

Depending on how much time you have to play - this is usually a fraction of the grind time, and you can also grind soloable mobs while you wait. High apm.

Xeeg wrote: »

9. Spamming global chat for shitzngigglez: 300 APM

And this point alone nullifies all the other points, because you can do this while doing all the other activities.

In other words, the game is at the apm of roughly grand master lvl player of Starcraft

Xeeg

Azherae wrote: »

I've got no problems with the idea that they can try to be more inclusive of playstyles/preferences like yours @Xeeg, but they'd almost certainly end up not being any more beneficial in terms of time investment. So from my view it sounds like you're asking them to add the ability for you to hit more buttons/keys for no benefit relative to others.

Yeah basically, id just like to have a little more skill expression while doing the various activities. Combat has it nailed. Caravans and mount traveling, not at all. Professions, more of a time management/spreadsheet thing, which is fine.

Xeeg

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

It's a sand box lite game. They can't fill every second with stuff to do. That's kind of up to you.

Yeah but i aint going to go PVP in a bunch of white level 0 items. If you want to PVP you need to get gear. If you want to get gear you have to engage in these systems.

Xeeg

Ludullu wrote: »

Let's look at the bigger picture here though.

Xeeg wrote: »

1. Caravans: Very low Action Per Minute activity. Most of the time. And even if you do get attacked and fight, you have travel time to deal with. ~10 APM?

You need to grind mobs for glint to run a good caravan. Grinding mobs is a ton of apm for a ton of time, so the overall apm is way higher.

Xeeg wrote: »

2. Traveling: A significant part of this game is traveling. It is a major time investment. I'm sure they have analytics on it. Not a very high APM activity either. ~20 APM?

What is the purpose of your travel? I'd imagine quite often it'll be grinding mobs, so the same as point 1.

Saying that "mob grinding is high apm therefore these systems aren't low apm" is not a fair response here. The point of my argument is that to obtain PVP competitive gear, you need to engage in these activities. I said 10 APM for caravans but really it might be more like 2 APM for hours at a time.

Ludullu wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

3. Boss camping: Sure, the boss fight itself might involve a decent combat APM, but what then? Maybe kill the surrounding monsters, but if another team is there they can snipe it off of you. Safer to spend some time waiting to be sure to tag, and this will only be worse the more random the boss spawn timer is. Or traveling between bosses. End result is a lower APM gameplay overall.

If they manage to design wars correctly, all of this time will be filled with pvp, which is an insanely high apm. In L2, with "+-a few hours" timers on bosses, those float hours would be filled with pvp, because at any given point you want YOUR guild to be the one that gets the boss first. And with even a slightly long travel time from your respawn to the boss location - you want to ALWAYS keep your enemy dead and outside of the boss location. So, again, super high apm, if designed right.

Well, this hasn't been my experience in game yet.

Ludullu wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

4. Gathering: Gathering is mostly traveling (low apm) plus clicking and waiting ~5s, so maybe still 20 APM?
5. Processing: Running to and from storage to the processor and loading up, again maybe 20 APM?
6. Crafting: Probably about 20 APM still

In a free trade economy all of these are optional, because you can just buy that shit. And to buy stuff you need money, which is mobs. High apm

Again, you are saying that a different system is high APM therefore this is high APM, not fair. Even if you grind mobs, you need to run caravans to make any real money off of it, averages to low APM.

Ludullu wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

7. Planning your character progression and working with others: 0 APM

Or you can just go unga bunga and have high apm. Optional.

Fair enough i guess.

Ludullu wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

8. Waiting on team, LFG, etc. : 1 APM

Depending on how much time you have to play - this is usually a fraction of the grind time, and you can also grind soloable mobs while you wait. High apm.

Depends on where you are, not every place can be solo farmed.

Ludullu wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

9. Spamming global chat for shitzngigglez: 300 APM

And this point alone nullifies all the other points, because you can do this while doing all the other activities.

In other words, the game is at the apm of roughly grand master lvl player of Starcraft

[/quote]

Haha lol, but seriously my main point is to get "good" gear, you need to do a lot of low apm activities that are semi afk/second screen type things.

Ludullu

Xeeg wrote: »

Haha lol, but seriously my main point is to get "good" gear, you need to do a lot of low apm activities that are semi afk/second screen type things.

And yet they all stem from you grinding mobs. When I tried running a few caravans in P1, it took me around 1.5h to farm the glint required for a fully-packed caravan and then around the same time to run said caravan. And considering how much apm the grinding has, the overall process of making money has, at worst, average apm.

And from what I've heard, in P2 running caravans has become a much more pvp-centric activity, cause they've been hunted over and over again. Which means that you'll need people to protect you, and once the caravan abilities are implemented - you'll need to do more apm yourself as well.

Caww

Xeeg wrote: »

.....Heck, I wrote this whole post while running a caravan. What does that tell you?

Ashes is beginning to give new meaning to the term "time sink"....

Imnotkio

Ashes is going for the design of things taking time. It's supposed to have chill moments and some action-packed moments. It's the type of game you can't really get in and play for 30 minutes and do something meaningful and get out. This reflects older MMOs. Other more recent games also have this vibe like Valheim and DayZ.

This may not please everyone but I for one am for it. I can cut gather and do professions while watching a show or a stream, I can do caravans with a group and talk some shit while things are quiet. It's a vibe.

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