Consensual PvP System in Ashes of Creation

Songcaller wrote: »

Cherished for PVP players.

I have interacted with a lot of arena PvP fans on these very forums that would disagree with you.

These people are just as much a PvP player as anyone, yet they prefer an arena style thst is a more controlled setting. They like knowing it is them vs one opponent (or them and their friends vs the same number of opponents), with no chance of assistance on either side - thus making it a fair test of pure PvP ability

Thus, the only real appropriate answer to the question of "who cherishes open PvP over other forms" would be open PvP players, as it absolutely isn't appropriate to say that it is all PvP players.

I did not state 'all pvp players' I stated the black and white situation. I only go by those players with the apoc skins and those players who still advocate for a combat tracker. There is a huge disparity between investment and outcome. I go by statistics and historical precedent. The fact you think a niche game is going to change the real life trends means you are truly a raider and not a pvp player. Just look at the 99/1 imbalances across wow servers, the constant removal and addition of bounty hunter modes in runescape, the fact we have gone from multiple server instances to hardly any means my assessment is still based in fact and shall not be swayed by the band aid.

I don't want a game where I can't kill the player who took my place and is bothering me

Songcaller wrote: »

I did not state 'all pvp players' I stated the black and white situation.

When you said

Songcaller wrote: »

Cherished for PVP players.

With no qualifiers, that means all PvP players.

Don't be like Dygz and try to claim that not specifically saying "all" means you inherently only mean "some". That isn't how English works.

If you indeed didn't mean to say "all PvP players", then we agree in regards to what you meant to say - even if I am a raider.

Negative. You ninny. If I say English people love tea that is not all English people. You semantics fail on a writer who lives by writing for a living. Some 26 years in the making. Provably longer than you have played mmos. Rest of your post therefore is just tosh.

Songcaller wrote: »

Negative. You ninny. If I say English people love tea that is not all English people.

Unless you say "in general", or "most" or something else similar, that is indeed what you are saying.

The absence of that qualifier means you specifically do not consider the qualifier to be needed. There is somethings a supposition that a qualifier is implied, and in the case of your comment that English people like tea, you could probably assume the qualifier is implied. This is because there is a long history of England as a country (specifically England) and drinking tea.

However, such qualifiers are not implied in a discussion like this.

When someone asks you "who likes open world PvP", the fact that they are asking a question should tell you that ko qualifiers can be implied, as that implication requires pre-existing knowledge that wouldn't exist if someone were asking that question. Thus when your reply is "PvP players", you are saying "PvP players like open world PvP", which in and of itself is not a true statement.

You you state that you are a writer, but the quality of written content (both online and print) is in such a poor state right now that I was actually going to suggest that you may in fact be a professional writer as a means of explaining your actions here, as it is on par with the poor writing that is so endemic these days.

The poor writing (especially in journalism) is largely a result of the writer not considering thst the reader doesn't have the same base knowledge (or limit of knowledge) of a topic that they do.

In this case, you no doubt watch content from people that prefer open world PvP (those essays you talk about), and probably don't pay attention to content from people that prefer arena PvP (and probably haven't watched any video essays on why arena PvP is superior). As such, you are in an information bubble, and within that bubble it may well be that all PvP players you come across prefer open world PvP. You may even think this enough to consider it such a basic understanding that discussion on it doesn't need the above qualifiers - but you would be wrong.

It's called a bling term to grab attention. The facts are a staple in the wider mmorpg community. It does seem the years of your echo chamber does make you believe your assessment is infallible yet I was not quantifying or qualifying, I was answering a quick question with a quick answer. Not disecting whether the person who has myself on block is trying to yank my crank. And no. I didn't see the matter as a yanked crank.

Songcaller wrote: »

It's called a bling term to grab attention.

As "bling term" is not something that really exists in a wide context, I have to assume this would translate to "stating something that is not strictly accurate in order to draw attention to a point".

This is what journalism does often, and is why many people say written media is turning to shit.

It also means my point about your statement being inaccurate is true, and your defense of it as an accurate statement is not only false, but is something you know to be false but stand behind as you intended it to grab attention rather than be accurate.

As a writer, you (and your peers) should strive to be better than some random person on the internet. You shouldn't use bling terms - you should have a valid enough point to not need to use them. If you do not have a valid enough point, you have nothing to write about.

As to my "echo chamber", my experience in Archeage and BDO (which is the only games I draw PvP experience from) tells me that the vast majority of PvP players prefer open world. However, that perspective is coming from a position of being surrounded by players playing open world MMO's, and even thennot all of them do prefer it, which is my point - your comment was that they all do.

Play a game without open world PvP but with an arena, and many people will prefer arena PvP - because that is why they are in that game as opposed to one with open world PvP. So yeah, your comment about an echo chamber is unfounded - if anything we are in the same echo chamber, I am just aware of it.

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

I've been playing MMOs since 2009 and have never played a game where I can't kill a player for a spot. I don’t know about you, but competition for me is something natural, like eating meat. why don't you play the most popular MMOs where no one will hurt you?

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

I've been playing MMOs since 2009 and have never played a game where I can't kill a player for a spot. I don’t know about you, but competition for me is something natural, like eating meat. why don't you play the most popular MMOs where no one will hurt you?

My issue here is not with competition, it is with you making a widely inaccurate statement.

So, you started playing MMO's late in the piece, and only play games where open PvP is a thing. That tells me everything I need to know about you as a player. You are the kind of player I used to run ci4cl3s around in aarcheage, because the only conflict resolution you know is PvP, and when you can't win at PvP you are lost. You simply don't have the conflict resolution skills one obtains from games where PvP is not an option - your skill set is sub-par due to the games you elect to play.

Your comment was factually incorrect. It may be a case that you only play MMO's where that is possible, but that is not what you stated.

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

I've been playing MMOs since 2009 and have never played a game where I can't kill a player for a spot. I don’t know about you, but competition for me is something natural, like eating meat. why don't you play the most popular MMOs where no one will hurt you?

My issue here is not with competition, it is with you making a widely inaccurate statement.

So, you started playing MMO's late in the piece, and only play games where open PvP is a thing. That tells me everything I need to know about you as a player.

Your comment was factually incorrect. It may be a case that you only play MMO's where that is possible, but that is not what you stated.

explain this to me. I'll come to the spot. I farm it. in half an hour you come down and take my farm. from your point of view, what should I do if I can't kill you?

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

I've been playing MMOs since 2009 and have never played a game where I can't kill a player for a spot. I don’t know about you, but competition for me is something natural, like eating meat. why don't you play the most popular MMOs where no one will hurt you?

My issue here is not with competition, it is with you making a widely inaccurate statement.

So, you started playing MMO's late in the piece, and only play games where open PvP is a thing. That tells me everything I need to know about you as a player.

Your comment was factually incorrect. It may be a case that you only play MMO's where that is possible, but that is not what you stated.

explain this to me. I'll come to the spot. I farm it. in half an hour you come down and take my farm. from your point of view, what should I do if I can't kill you?

Farm the spot better than me, so I don't get any mobs. That is what I would do to you.

If you are in a spot with so many lobs that you can't meaningfully out-farm me to the point where I have more down time than I want, then obviously we could both happily farm that location.

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

I've been playing MMOs since 2009 and have never played a game where I can't kill a player for a spot. I don’t know about you, but competition for me is something natural, like eating meat. why don't you play the most popular MMOs where no one will hurt you?

My issue here is not with competition, it is with you making a widely inaccurate statement.

So, you started playing MMO's late in the piece, and only play games where open PvP is a thing. That tells me everything I need to know about you as a player.

Your comment was factually incorrect. It may be a case that you only play MMO's where that is possible, but that is not what you stated.

explain this to me. I'll come to the spot. I farm it. in half an hour you come down and take my farm. from your point of view, what should I do if I can't kill you?

Farm the spot better than me, so I don't get any mobs. That is what I would do to you.

If you are in a spot with so many lobs that you can't meaningfully out-farm me to the point where I have more down time than I want, then obviously we could both happily farm that location.

Wow. I'm sorry, I didn't understand who I was dealing with. By the way, does your wife's boyfriend play this game too?

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

stonethrower wrote: »

If you can't kill a player for a place to farm, it's not an MMO. topic can be closed

This is widely inaccurate.

You are stating that the most popular MMO's on the market are not in fact MMO's.

I've been playing MMOs since 2009 and have never played a game where I can't kill a player for a spot. I don’t know about you, but competition for me is something natural, like eating meat. why don't you play the most popular MMOs where no one will hurt you?

My issue here is not with competition, it is with you making a widely inaccurate statement.

So, you started playing MMO's late in the piece, and only play games where open PvP is a thing. That tells me everything I need to know about you as a player.

Your comment was factually incorrect. It may be a case that you only play MMO's where that is possible, but that is not what you stated.

explain this to me. I'll come to the spot. I farm it. in half an hour you come down and take my farm. from your point of view, what should I do if I can't kill you?

Farm the spot better than me, so I don't get any mobs. That is what I would do to you.

If you are in a spot with so many lobs that you can't meaningfully out-farm me to the point where I have more down time than I want, then obviously we could both happily farm that location.

Wow. I'm sorry, I didn't understand who I was dealing with. By the way, does your wife's boyfriend play this game too?

I thought you liked competition.

What I am talking about is literally PvE competition.

Azherae

Songcaller wrote: »

Negative. You ninny. If I say English people love tea that is not all English people. You semantics fail on a writer who lives by writing for a living. Some 26 years in the making. Provably longer than you have played mmos. Rest of your post therefore is just tosh.

Ok, putting that aside in the other sense, this helps me to understand something, because you do seem to approach MMO design concepts in the way that a writer does (I also am one, though not often professionally, and I can tell when my 'writer instincts' are messing with my 'economist' and 'programmer' ones).

By this, I mean that you focus on the 'stories' of MMOs, specifically seemingly the ones between players, the meta-narratives. This could be good, in Ashes, but you seem to be convinced of the exact opposite of what Steven has sometimes shown he believes.

Now, Steven is a salesman, but I believe he is also enough of a writer at heart to have fond memories of meta-narratives from older MMOs, entirely accurate or not. The issue I 'have' is that both you and Steven, in your 'pursuit' of narratives, are ignoring or diminishing the parts of the design required for people to care to play long enough to even reach them. This could work if Steven was making Eternal Tombs, but it doesn't work for Ashes.

Steven started with a partner in this grand scheme who had MMO dev knowledge and together they spoke in a way that gave the impression that they had all that worked out already, that this project was 'the result of a man with a very clear idea of how the game will work and what design is required to get there', finally deciding to throw money at it upon realizing that the rest of the industry had no intention of doing it.

And that has an audience.

Since Jeff left, it has kinda shown that Steven was somewhat lacking some of the second part and intended to rely on his talented staff to fill it in. Entirely fair. Not an approach I critique at all.

tl;dr please bring your own talented staff to tell us why your Writer's Instincts ideas that are setting off all the red flags in my Programmer and Econ Designer instincts, are fine. My own Writer's Instincts aren't 'winning' on their own.