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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Dev Discussion #74 - Rogue Archetype
Dev Discussions are an opportunity to join in on player discussions about topics that Intrepid Studios want to hear your thoughts on. This is less about asking us questions, and more about us asking YOU the questions! If you do have questions about Ashes of Creation, keep an eye our social media channels for our monthly livestreams, check out the Ashes of Creation community wiki, or try the #questions channel in Discord!
In this thread, we’ll be discussing:
Dev Discussion - Rogue Archetype
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The Development Team wants your thoughts on the new Rogue Archetype! What are your first impressions of the Rogue? Do you have any thoughts or concerns regarding the Rogue? What are your favorite and least favorite aspects of the Rogue so far?
Edit - The team is looking for feedback on the following:
(As you share feedback, please note what level your Rogue is at!)
- General Rogue Feedback - What feels fun, and what doesn’t? Which abilities do you like best, and which abilities do you feel need the most improvement?
- Visual Effects (VFX) and Sound Effects (SFX) - How do you feel about current VFX and SFX for the Rogue archetype? While these are a work in progress, we want to know what you like, and what you don’t.
- Rogue Class Mechanic “Advantage” - How does it feel to generate this resource and spend it to empower abilities?
- Rogue Stealth - How does this feel to use in PvE? How does this feel to use in PvP?
- Dagger Weapon Combos - What do you like about Dagger weapon combos, and what do you feel needs improvement?
Please don't feel limited to the thought-starters above! Feel free to share any thoughts, concerns, or stories regarding gathering with us in this Dev Discussion.
2
Comments
My first impression is quite positive, and it seems to be in a direction I will personally like. I see good mobility, combos that require skill and planning, bleed, spell resets, obviously stealth.
My first thoughts on stealth in PvE:
- The range restriction on the stealth activation feels bad—it should lowered (~5-10m) or even removed if no actor has a line of sight on me—the line of sight factor being particularly important.
- It's unintuitive that stealth is not a permanent toggle. It lasts long enough to "forget" that you have it, and then it goes on cooldown so you can't re-activate. I assume that it's like this in order to plan its usage, but in practice, and due to the range restriction, it's unpractical to use and not very assassin-like.
- In addition to the above two points, the cooldown after de-activation should be removed—there's not much point in it because of the activation restrictions.
- The stealth sound effect is quite loud and I don't think it's very representative of what it is... it doesn't feel like I'm entering stealth
- After some more time playing, I found out a nameplate issue: sometimes, I can see stealthed players when they are within 15-30m of me because their nameplate appears.
The other things I noticed, for now:
- "Throw" hitting two enemies is very unpractical. I would generally use that ability to pull a mob away from a group, otherwise I'd engage with feint or shadow step. The second hit should be an upgrade, not by default.
- Feint's range is slightly too low in my opinion. Also, terrain blocks it in a weird way right now—it should require line of sight to be cast.
- Acrobatic strike's should detect before cast if the back of the target is not accessible, and in this situation do something else (or not be castable). Right now it feels bugged when this happens.
- Acrobatic strike's "off balance" is bugged: targets can turn around instantly, and they usually are turned even before I land. I also think that the character should land facing to the target, instead of facing away, but if "off balance" is fixed that would be less of an issue.
- Poisons being combat abilities that only last 10 seconds don't feel great and add quite the overhead to fights. I'd prefer having to apply a specific poison before a fight (with a cast time), and having it last a few minutes (eg. 20)
- The synergy of Soothing Shadows and Stealth seems abusive. Currently, it's like Soothing Shadows has a 10s cd, and spamming stealth to heal seems like something that shouldn't be a mechanic. Combined with my feedback about stealth above, Soothing Shadows could be a passive that increases health regeneration while stealthed instead of when entering stealth. To nerf it, it could have a maximum HP threshold, though I'm not sure I like that.
Finally, the positives:
- The potential of combos and the skill required to get them right is impressive. It's very appealing.
- Advantage is a fun mechanic.
- The feeling of autoattacks with daggers is very good. Autos are fast and feel impactful.
- The highlighting of spells that will give a stack of Advantage depending on the context is very nice.
- Generally speaking, and this is the most important, the direction of the skills and gameplay feel very appealing and I think it will please the majority of people who play assassin/rogue
The advantage resource seems fun and its sensible for a rogue.
If the rogue could block or dodge would be cool gaining advantage.
I wouldn’t put much emphasis on AoE for the rogue. Instead, maybe have a skill that if he lands a critical hit, he’d get a buff to his critical chance on the next target, as long as it’s a different one. The idea would be chaining criticals while reducing his resistances making him more exposed and way more deadly. Then reduce these effects faster if you’re stacking too many of this skill, and reduce them slowly if your stack is small.
It’d be more fun to make the rogue not just sneaky, but a sneaky character that goes crazy on people when he steps out of the shadows, he could unleash extreme violence. He’d come out to kill or be killed, not to drag out a long fight like a tank and do AoE jumpy stuff.
This way he would be more like John Wick and that's what people wanna be, people wanaa be John Wick.
The red outline you developed helps, but it's still not great. I'm used to Classic WoW where if you're out of combat you can always Stealth, and if you are in combat you need to use a long cd called Vanish. That feels better for me.
Speaking of that, getting out of combat needs to be faster. There's always some annoying delay after the mob dies where you're still in combat, but that's not a Rogue thing.
This post nailed it for me as well. I also think the first poster was spot on. Acrobatic strike is no good because it does not do what it says and you are also facing away from the target. Is it supposed to be a skill to help you get away maybe? Flurry charges do not seem to work consistently like a charge would. The skill goes on cooldown with charges and you can't use it? not sure how it is supposed to work either. Feint feels great if it had Off Balance that worked it would be "Chef's Kiss". I also agree that throw should be single target base. 20s cooldown seems to long for a skill that wants to be dedicated aoe When not much else is dedicated AOE.
If I could have a wish it would be that Stealth would be more LOS dependent. so much great terrain and obstacles but the goblin is to close on the other side of this big rock with his back turned to me...
I think THIS is how a first iteration should be. Even if not all skills / mechanics end up making it in their current form for the "final" Rogue, exploring these is never a waste.
You should definitely apply whatever design methods/workflow you've used to create the rogue to some other archetypes. A few of them are in dire need of more creativity / class fantasy, especially Tank, Ranger and Cleric IMO. They need bolder, more risky design decisions, without any regard for balance, the kind of decisions that can only be made now and not at a later stage of development.
For my main point of feedback: I think the rogue has both too little movement, and too much movement.
Too little relatively to other archetypes, but too much for the kind of tactical combat I enjoy in an MMORPG.
And all of this leads back to my absolute biggest issue with AoC's combat in general: the "Universal Skill System".
I have no problem with dodge and block being a shared mechanic, quite the opposite, it allows designers to create encounters with more freedom because every player has access to these 2 tools.
However, universal dodge and block augments should not exist.
It levels the playing field way too much and takes away 2 very powerful tools to define class fantasies from designers. I was glad when I saw "Dash" in the rogue talent tree, but even though it was a step in the right direction, having a few class specific augments on top of the shared ones just won't be enough.
The shared mechanics for dodging especially are way too impactful. 2 dodge jumps and you are pretty much out of render range in some cases. Every archetype having access to this ON TOP of their own movement skills turns everyone into a ninja. And when everyone is a ninja, nobody is, which is my issue with the relative movement mechanics of the rogue.
I'll keep it short for blocking, because it's off topic here, but it's just kinda the same thing as dodging. Although it's not as impactful across all fights, it definitely takes away from the tank archetype.
Oh and about sprinting.. I just don't know why that even exists in a world where we have mounts already. The speed difference between it and normal running does not warrant its existence for encounter design reasons like blocking and dodging. I think this should be just straight up removed.
Maybe increase the default run speed of characters a bit, maybe distribute some more archetype-specific sprints that are actually impactful (for archetypes that it makes sense for.) The current sprint does not deserve it's own, separate key binding, that's for sure.
IMO, if the Universal Skill System was removed, combat would be better by default, even without distributing parts of the removed augments to the archetypes where they belong.
Comboing different abilities together feels great and responsive.
Comboing abilities with weapon attacks does not feel great. If i have all auto-attack settings disabled and hold LMB for weapon attacks, sometimes doing abilities after weapon combo attacks hit it feels like abilities don't go off when i press them. Feels like some tuning needed.
Don't really like i have to weapon attack once for flurry/thrash to count towards weapon chain. Maybe would feel better if they counted as part of the weapon chain without having to do 1 weapon attack first.
Having range weapon out , pressing melee ability swaps to melee weapon. Some abilities like Throw swap it back to range weapon and make you mess up your rotation.
Do not like the range requirement on death's mark.
Acrobatic Strike feels too slow.
(As you share feedback, please note what level your Rogue is at!)
The direction is very well done, and it makes me proud to finally receive my home class.
First, I believe in time the cd of stealth and its recast function will be worked out. (For whatever reason we have to be at a distance to recast, when we're already in stealth?! yea... not thought out, but i believe the reason was to push the regen ability...but why even need to recast? If we're in stealth, why not just make it a standard passive?) since its a variance of "true stealth" it shouldn't require such restrictions. Being a simple passive isn't going to break the immersion, and its not OP as I've seen people say. We all know, 200+ tics of health every second is nice, but a fighter, mage, or even twink'd druid can blow right through that given the squishy nature of the rogue.
I LOOOOVE the sound Stealth makes though... It hypes me up, and in contrast to a smoke bomb sound, or Wow's rogue, its unique and reminds me of pulling my blades out, heightening my senses, and preparing my mind for the mission to come. I'm a martial Artist of 33 years, and previously fought professionally and even now, hearing that sound makes me grin and think of many fights or matches I've been in. *claps*
Recently did a 1v1 vs a tank with terrain obstacles, and challenges near carphin. The grapple hook, LoS breaks into stealth and variety of ways to disengage/engage, made that fight thrilling and true to what it feels like being an assassin. Even when down in levels, or gear, the skill cap makes it a wonder to play, and truly enjoyable to utilize when you truly get the flow.
amitofu, and godspeed Intrepid
pls make it like this
1.we can use it without any distance limit.
2.it can not be use in combat,but you can use a long CD skill stead of stealth (may be 5min cd) in combat.
3.make 10s cd of stealth if you break it.
i think that would be so cool.
General Rogue Feedback
- Looks amazing! The vibe I get is ninja, utility, and opportunity.
- Combat looks so fun, and I love how the rogue holds daggers, one facing forward the other backwards.
- Class fantasy is familiar to other games like WoW Classic, but unique to Ashes and a great step forward.`
Visual Effects (VFX) and Sound Effects (SFX)
- LOVE THE ANIMATIONS! I truly like all the back-flips, fast movement animations, and weapon attacks. I always wanted to have a rogue that incorporates movement into its combat. More is better here for me
Rogue Class Mechanic “Advantage”
Rogue Stealth - How does this feel to use in PvE? How does this feel to use in PvP?
- I don't like that stealth only lasts 60 seconds. I want to be able to setup ambushes and with stealth lasting only 60 seconds, it will be way more difficult.
- Distance limitation active also feels weird and not fun. Maybe a smaller distance? Not sure how to fix this and also make it balanced.
I play a rogue/ assassin in every mmo I play and have played a lot of different mmos. Some of my favorite PvE thief gameplay was FFXI due to the ability to help the tanks keep aggro with “trick attack” that added a fun interaction where you needed to do dmg behind your tank that kept grinding more engaging. And for PVP I loved ragnarok online thief/rogue/assassin due to the fast pace combat skills as well as a variety in builds.
General Rogue Feedback - so far I love the synergy between skills. It’s fun to play between doing big dmg with a double backstab or putting a big bleed on your target. In my opinion the poison needs the most work. If it’s going to be something that is a short duration it needs to feel more impactful otherwise it should be something applied outside of combat. Overall I think it’s a great design but just like all other classes I just hope for more “skill builds” I don’t like when I feel the same as everyone else. Make the skill trees where you have so go into a certain route to get a skill. Ragnarok online has a really good version of this.
Visual Effects (VFX) and Sound Effects (SFX) - I’m torn on this because I know the more flashy something is the more it becomes a problem in large scale events but on the other hand it does feel nice to use an ability that looks cool as well. I think the compromise could be louder sfx with more body animations with an occasional “big spell” that has a bigger animation.
Rogue Class Mechanic “Advantage” - I like the idea of charging up your skills with advantage and this is a fun engaging play style. The only thing I’d say is for some abilities is it should not just add an effect but change the skill almost completely.
Rogue Stealth - I just see it being a problem in large scale events. You will never be able to stealth and that feels bad.
Dagger Weapon Combos - I just wish it was easier to tell when your weapon combo finishes. Also they feel like you are skating around a little bit. Other than that they feel great to use.
General Rogue Feedback - The abilities and weaving them feels great! I like how you can tweak stuff to your liking, and there's a nice variation in playstyles to be had. It really does feel good. It's fluid. A buddy and I essentially had slight differences in talents, and widely different play styles. It just feels great.
VFX/SFX - I love the hemo proc on lacerate spraying an arc of blood. Looks wicked. Everything else I think looks great, too.
The SFX on Thump being a slap sound and the anination being what it is makes it look like a double handed butt slap when Thumpin on a running mob.
“Advantage” - Feels pretty good, not too easy or hard to generate. Adds a good bit of "skill" to properly execute and build. Could possibly use 1 more way to generate some, as I found myself not really having more than 1 stack super often, but that could just be my playstyle, and the aforementioned required "skill" to generate it.
Stealth - This seems to be the biggest gripe, and it's not really much different for me. The 20m range makes it terribly annoying because ANYTHING not in your party, especially with the mob density in some areas, throws a wrench in it, and makes it painful to find a spot to stealth just to perform a traditional opening. Even had someone follow us around in the desert, mounted, just to keep us from being able to stealth open on mobs while our group was grinding.. That felt extra shitty. We just stopped using it altogether after that.
On top of that it lasts 60s, and to me, I kinda feel rushed to get into a position to open instead of being able to wait for the opportune time for a precise strike. Having advantage last 60s feels fine, imo, it adds plenty of urgency without having to worry about stealth also ending.
With all of that said, I'd like stealth to have no timer, or at the very least quite a bit of a longer one, keep advantage on its timer. With how stealth detection works based off angle and proxy, I don't think it would be too much of an issue. We're already fairly squishy, and have less than half the possible hard/soft CC that rogues could get in WoW.
Dagger Weapon Combos - Haven't played with daggers, been using a 2h sword.
My feedback so far.. Rogue is 7/10, with Stealth being the only thing really holding it back.
General Feedback:
Overall the kit feels really nice. Though a lot the skills are still bugged which I /bugged them when I noticed them.
The most annoying thing i'd say (other the stealth) is having to re-apply poison every 10 to 15 seconds in combat. After having some long grind sessions of constant grinding it just becomes a chore and doesn't feel like good gameplay.
I think it should be changed to have a longer CD but and uptime that matches it while giving us 2 choices of poisons instead of 2 charges. This will allow us to pick a poison and stick with it for say 10 minutes and reapply or swap to the 2nd poison based on the situation.
Some of the bugs I noticed the most:
Acrobatic strike very rarely properly locked rotation on the target.
Feint seemed to bounce of some mobs often instead of getting behind the target. (was not spec'd into agile)
Occasionally Death's mark would not properly heal while still w/in the 30 second window.
Umbral cloak doesn't properly remove bard sleep when used with advantage.
Skills I liked the most while leveling
Soothing shadows
Poisons
Trounce
Double strike
Sap
Ruthless
Shadow cascade
Visual Effects (VFX) and Sound Effects (SFX) - How do you feel about current VFX and SFX for the Rogue archetype? While these are a work in progress, we want to know what you like, and what you don’t.
I liked most of the VFX and SFX. Most my focus was on the combat and testing out all the combos trying to maximize my dps.
Rogue Class Mechanic “Advantage” - How does it feel to generate this resource and spend it to empower abilities?
The advantage mechanic feels great and rewarding. I found myself memorizing all the ways I could gain advantage so I can get 1 more charge in w.e situation I was in. It would be nice to have an added effect showing your charges on your char. I think I notice glowing around the hand(s) based on 1 or 2 charges. Would be nice to have an UI option to show the charges right below our feet as sort of 1 or 2 big red dots based on charges. (or something a bit more creative)
Rogue Stealth -
Feels ok in PVE , was able to sneak around some area I couldn't normally be able to w.o it. The 20 meter requirement can be annoying but I did like that it put a red highlight around what mob or player was causing you not to go stealth. How ever, in some areas, it seemed to be completely by range, even if the mob was a floor higher, on the other side of a wall or just generally LOS.
I do like that fact we can get a re - stealth off in combat. Though it didn't always drop combat and the mobs would still chase. Occasionally, when it did drop combat, the next time you get back into combat that mob will re-argo onto you no matter your distance.
How does this feel to use in PvP? Not so good, I felt like I was never actually stealthed and most the time can be seen or targeted even if I was well over 40 meters away.
Overall the 1 minute stealth timer is meh.
Dagger Weapon Combos - didnt try daggers - used a greatsword the entire time. (main reason was I was able to pre-craft a couple greatswords)
I'm sure I'll have more thoughts on this later but for now here's my general feedback.
General Feedback
Overall I think the rogue is the both the most fun, and most well designed archetype out there at the moment. Definitely has it's issues but I'm really enjoying it so far. Out of every skill tree, I feel like I have the most decision paralysis, in a good way, with the rogue. Each talent I can see being useful(for the most part), and the abilities are varied and give quite a lot of choice / ways to build your character. Here are a few things I like / dislike.
- I really dislike how much time prepping for a fight takes. Activating stealth should gain you full stacks of advantage (be that 1 or 2 depending on level). Stealth is hard enough to activate mid combat that this would just be a QOL feature. (Umbral cloak would not give full stacks of advantage, you'd still need to use smoke bomb). If you're able to activate regular stealth again in pvp with the current limitations you deserve the advantage.
- Grappling Hook
- Poisons should be able to be used in stealth even without the talent. Poison is a fairly sizable portion of rogue damage and multiple abilities rely on it. Keeping poison reliant on the talent to trigger in stealth not only makes me feel like I have to pick it but that I have to pick other equipment talents I otherwise might not have to make full use of the talent.
- I think this one is my biggest gripe, but there are a lot of times I use a movement ability and my auto attack just stops attacking when it probably shouldn't. There are definitely times where I appreciate / expect it not to continue attacking but it is annoying when I expect to be attacking and I'm just not.
- Speaking of movement abilities Feint and Shadowstep's code needs a review. The abilities as they currently stand aren't smooth at all. This is doubly so for moving targets. They are actively a liability in combat at the moment, as you have no idea if you'll be where the ability says you'll be or not when you use them.
Visual Effects (VFX)
The visual effects need the most work out of the archetypes. There are some really great looking ones, but there's some rather bland ones too. That and a lot don't differentiate enough between abilities or don't differentiate enough between non-advantage and advantage versions. I'd like to see a bit more variety or more distinct effects then what is presently there.
Advantage
Advantage feels nice, and it gives a level of complexity to the rogue that might not otherwise be there. Without it I could easily see the class being a button masher. That said, I don't know if the flow / timing of when you gain/loose advantage feels quite right yet. There's something about it that just feels a bit awkward when you're trying to generate advantage.
Stealth
Overall stealth feels like the weakest part of the kit sadly. For a archetype that is supposed to have stealth at the core, I feel like it's just a convenient way to heal and gain advantage out of combat, and do a bit more damage at the beginning of combat. Beyond that I feel like I'm seen half the time by players despite not being that close.
Daggers
I really don't like the state the daggers are in. Well actually I don't really like the state weapons are in, in general but that's not the purpose here. Taking out the discussion on stats and going for pure attack power over attack speed, the daggers don't really change much between themselves and any other weapon. I would have expected to see the daggers be quite a bit faster in terms of getting off weapon combos and applying the various status effects, but that just isn't the case at all. They just feel very underwhelming / a less useful version of another weapon.
this mechanic destroys the pleasure of playing the thief, which is the class I was most looking forward to.
but it's very difficult to be stealthy, and when you manage to be stealthy, it doesn't last very long, whereas it should be permanent and immediate, even in combat. Take aion, for example, who managed to be a good thief.
that's the point of a thief, otherwise there's no point in playing him!
right now, what you've done is the worst thief I've ever seen in any mmo, the one who was supposed to be the master of stealth and able to sneak into the deepest corners of the game.
the thief has to be able to sneak into the middle of a fight to escape, that's his main advantage: I'll hit you two or three times, you'll see him, you'll turn around, I'll disappear into the shadows and run away, if you don't have a mage with you to reveal me, too bad for you!
that's how you sold it to us.
given that the thief has fewer hit points than the warrior, if you play him, it's only for the stealth mechanic; if the stealth mechanic is useless, then the thief goes in the garbage can and you play the warrior...
Class is fun and meaty and very diverse in combos.
Stealth needs slight tweaks, as far as what counts as an entity to prevent stealth, I personally think the range on stealth is fine, and more balanced for PVP than the suggestions I've read in thread.
Healing is incredibly overtuned between how SAP interacts with Poison and the way you can abuse Stealth for healing in PVP.
Monster aggro mechanics interaction with stealth needs to be talked about, the fact that a rogue can literally not use a piece of his PVP toolkit to fight PVE is a huge turnoff for me. As soon as a rogue taps stealth if it happens to have aggro the mobs reset.
I've probably died more during solo lvling then on any other class and i think that is a good thing. If you mess up on Rogue you will die. (at least if you don't have the disengage options like grappling hook available yet)
The Visual feedback for advantage on the Character (glowing Hands) is something i wish every class had. At least for me this is a lot more intuitive then the tiny buff icon or progress bar at the portrait.
Concerns:
The Stealth aspect needs a bit of work since the ability is blocked by distance instead of actual LoS which is a bit awkward. Having it go by distance also lets you go into stealth and out of combat if you just get a couple meters away from the NPC.
It also feels weird to be able to use Stealth while already in Stealth to just extend the timer and heal up, what's the point of having a timer then? As long as nobody is too close a Rogue can just sit in stealth forever (+ heal while doing so).
Also it confuses me that Stealth does not use any Mana.
The grappling hook is way too powerful, It's already hard enough to catch up too people. I think it should have a combat block so it can only be used to gain advantages in position before a battle, not to get away freely.
Skills:
• Grappling Hook: Definitely one of my favorite features moving around the landscape. Getting on top of buildings feels a bit like I’m an Assassins Creed player.
• Sap: Not as strong as it could be for a sustained point of view.
• Double Strike: This feels like it should be a passive skill as there are already so many buttons to manage on the tool bar.
• Soothing Shadows: A much-appreciated skill to have for reduced downtime.
• Flurry: Skill seems to be underwhelming at 10% attack speed, yet used as a main skill especially for aoe hits.
• Backstab/stab: I enjoy how positioning changes the effect of this skill. I wish more skills where like this.
VFX
• Smokebomb: All I can say is “Ninja Vanish”. A great skill to have for a rogue and I enjoy the total visual blindness on the screen.
• Feint: Another great skill that lines up nicely with the Rogue game place to quick get behind your opponent. It took a bit of getting used to not having the camera align with where I am facing. Sometimes you don’t always face your opponent when using this ability.
• Advantage: It is sometimes challenging to see if you have advantage in the middle of a fight to time combos just right.
Daggers Weapon Combos: Not sure if I have all the timing just right. It would be helpful to see how the combo is built up in some way as a visual que.
I just really hope that instead of nerfing it you bring all of the other classes up to scratch and make them just as fun.
As a game developer myself of 15 years I truly appreciate the work that went into the rogues design, and whoever the designer of the class is, needs to be given lead in bringing all the other classes up to the same standard. If all of the classes are as enjoyable as this then you for sure have a winning MMO on your hands.
-so bad skill feint (when you use it, there's a chance you'll fly off)
-mobs spinning on one place when u give controll skills in them
-adrenaline skill so bad (he gives nothing for 1.30m cooldown)
-umbreal cloack: when using it ur enemy can see u for as long as the skill lasts.
-Invisibility doesn't work as well as I would like, sometimes you can see nicknames over characters, or their enchanted weapons
-sometimes when u use stealth and enemy close to u (but u can use skill) skill going to cooldown, but you don't go into invisalign.
-shadow cascade, caltrops and throw too low damage, need to boost this skills
but class so cool, absolute cinema :0
I love the different audio cues from the rogue's abilities that I felt like I was having to study in order to know what was about to happen to me, and how to react.
Overall they feel pretty overpowered from a lockdown standpoint and their overall kit, but I think there are still ways to survive their burst.
Running heavy armor, and having your melee weapon out with crit avoidance specs when they jump you is key, to attempt mitigate the big backstab crits. This helps reduce the chance of them crit backstabbing you to death before you're out of CC. Without doing any of this, you're dead every time.
I know things probably shouldn't be balanced from 1v1, but I'm impressed with all of the intricacies you have to keep in mind or try and counter, no matter who you run into. The high skill ceiling capabilities across all archetypes seems great!
Schriz on Vyra
I appreciate the overall direction of the class. It feels fun to play and the skill ceiling gives something to continuously work towards. The self healing is a great feature as often rogues will not be in a place that a cleric can help them top off after taking damage.
Issues:
1. This class is EXTREMELY susceptible to movement desync and becomes nearly unplayable with any form of server performance issues. Fient, Shadowstep, Grapple, Upgraded Dash (Passive), Shadow cascade, and Acrobatic strike all have significant server desync issues or just overall general Jank. Without these desync issues the movement on this class would feel pristine.
2. Acrobatic strike and feint needs to put you AND your camera facing your target like shadowstep does.
3. If shadowstep does not work because of terrain behind the person it should not consume the cooldown.
4. Stealth needs an element of Line of Sight for activation criteria. Allow rogues to stealth if out of LOS even within the 20m range. Also the range criteria for stealth feels unintuitive and clunky especially with all of the things that prevent you from stealth.
5. Unstable Compound is good for PVE but very conditional for PVE. I'd like it to apply to first target hit if it hits more than one target.
6. Umbral Cloak CC break with advantage is not working correctly.
7. Ambusher passive randomly falls off.
Movement Issue Breakdown (Most critical issue imo)
Dash Passive: When the Dash passive is active 70-80% of the time the dash has some form of desync where you travel forward and it teleports you back slightly. This is especially pronounced when you jump immediately after dashing. Sometimes (Rarely) you can maintain momentum from the dash after jumping but usually it will desync you back to original dash destination. I LOVE that you can maintain momentum from dash and bunny hop to gain additional distance and this should stay as a feature. Similar to that of mage blink.
Feint: When using feint I often end up in the completely wrong location. Often I will overshoot my target and end up 5+ meters from them. If I hit an incline surface like a rock i'll often be launched into the air. Also this ability will desync frequently and teleport randomly.
Grapple: Grapple is a great ability and with polish it'll easily be my favorite ability in the game. It needs two fixes: 1. Make the end portion more predictable. Sometimes when going up I am able to keep momentum and nicely glide over the ledge. Many times though I'll end up sticking to the ledge like glue or be thrown back off the ledge because of desync or improper location calculations. 2. When using grapple on a ceiling above you it should allow for swinging like spiderman because thats really fricken cool.
Shadow Cascade: Jank is the main word id use to describe this ability. Often it'll go literally nowhere. Other times it'll go part of the distance. If you move while in the dash itll zig-zag out of control. When others use it often they completely miss me but it still hits and they teleport to the actual destination it was meant to go to.
Shadowstep: This is the best of the movement abilities mostly because it works more than the others. Please don't consume the cooldown if shadowstep cant be completed because of a wall behind the target. Also, shadowstep currently is consumed without teleporting you if its used right as the target moves out of the cast range.
Acrobatic Strike: This one is not too bad. Main problem is when you use it and you can't get behind the target.
Finally, Stealth just needs to be fixed to be true stealth. Often I can see peoples nameplates or their weapon enchants or random pieces of armor. I never know whether I am seen or not and it does not feel good.
Stealth:
Feint: Super fun and Guile is a good effect BUT
Acrobatic Strike:
Shadow Step: Super fun
Umbral Cloak: I mostly want it to put my character into stealth so I can get away. IMO Either
Grappling Hook: I love it.
Poisons:
Thrash & Flurry: Super good abilities. Comment on the text description. Might be more clear to say they don't 'reset' combo attacks rather than they don't 'interrupt', because they do still pause combo attack animation/DPS
Death's Mark: Nice, I like marking the enemy for death. Healing is useful and damage is good. Occasional issues with it not triggering when it should have
Dash: Very nice, seems to give some weird Tribes style skiing velocity increase when jumping/falling/landing sometimes. Not a high priority issue though IMO
Smoke Bomb: I like it, but it stops my auto-attack on use which I don't see the purpose of and don't like
Thump and Kick: Must haves
Adrenaline: Doesn't seem worth the point
Shadow Cascade\Caltrops\Sleep Dart\Throw: I did not play around with these abilities, no comment.
Edited (multiple times) for formatting
Overall I love the direction and need to use thought and skill to be effective. As the class should be, fantastic dps and ttk against one or two targets, after that you have a problem. No matter what the final kit ends up being just keep the overall feel you have working now. I thoroughly enjoy the action mode combat with Rogue in particular, really feels agile and acrobatic.
I actually enjoy that it takes planing and skill to use and maintain stealth. However line of sight needs to be fixed for it. 20m or whatever the final ends up being for activation and maintain can't ignore walls, floors etc. Stealth that is too powerful gets boring fast so I'm enjoying learning the limitations before detection that you're giving this version of it.
Bleeds, poison etc. all definitely belong in the kit and feel good to me. Sleep dart I like the concept of but something feels lacking to me and I'm not sure exactly why. Grapple, smoke and the other higher skills I enjoyed in PTR. Look forward to playing with them more as levels increase.
Keep it up... overall it feels great!!
TLDR: Love most of the designs, animation and unique playstyle, but there are small anoyences that keep that class from being really fun to play: Stealth range requirement, anoying Advantage tracking, debuff tracking, and waiting for buttons to get off CD.
GFX - VFX: I like the animations and sound effects for the most part. Feels impactful and you can easily tell what ability you used by the sound. Only exception is Smoke Bomb, it seems to turn down the brightness and makes everything else very dark, and Caltrops that are very loud and a bit obnoxious.
Advantage: Kinda hard to track and the UI element and not distinct enough imo. I catch myself watching my action bars and unit frame more the the actual combat. The same goes for tracking Bleed effects and other debuffs. It also feels strange to have to re-cast Stealth to get to 2 stacks of Advantage. Not enough abilites that generate Advantage consistatly in combat imo.
Stealth: The range requirement feels really bad. Specially considering it wont let you stealth if neutral players, mounts or creatures are nearby. Either reduce the range by a lot, or make it only stop you from stealthing if there are hostile targets nearby.
Quickfire feedback on abilites and talents:
-Soothing Shadows: Feels strange to re-cast Stealth when already in stealth to just procc the heal again and get advantage.
-Sap: EXTREMLY hard to track poisons when the debudd UI element is way too small
-Acrobatic Strike: Feels very awkward in PvE to run infront of the mob just to jump behind it again.
-Umbral Cloak: Having it require advantage to put you back in stealth makes this very awkward to use. I would rather have this ability put you in stealth regardless of advantage.
-Death's Mark: with Cold Embrace talent this will Freeze the target if its already Chilled, but its a bit awkward to chill a target, then go back into stealth to be able to use Death's Mark.
-Poisons: Should be able to use poisons in stealth.
-Kick: Off-Balance does not work on mobs and they just keep turing.