Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
For the rogue, I like the idea of the combat loop being about closing the gap, getting into a tactically advantageous position, applying offensive pressure, then getting out asap.
By the looks and sound of what I saw it seems like:
- stealth is your main gap closer, and you use this to get into a tactical position to set up for offensive pressure
- you want to get in to apply burst damage like crits or applying DOTs, then get out asap
- you use your mobility, snares, and traps to retreat or to re-orient your positioning if you get stuck in a bad position. This would also serve to support your stealth usage by creating opportunities for it.
In theory I like the idea of this because even though both the rogue and the fighter both want to close the gap and can make use of high mobility and snares, the rogue feels different since the stealth is your key gap closer, and since you want to get in and out asap as rogue, rather than lingering in the enemy's face for too long. This is also nice because the idea of gameplay centering around a combination of high mobility and tactical cc usage is a key aspect of fun combat, and you can still engage with that experience when trying to get away from enemies or re-orient your postioning, similar to the ranger in that regard.
- I like that there are abilities that let you use movement to cross-up the enemy and that you are encouraged to do so for things like backstabs, which makes it fun to constantly manage that distance of trying to set up for a cross up movement option, and to constantly consider your orientation and position in relation to the enemy.
- I like that there are traps and snares that you can use in a tight space at close quarters (like smokes/caltrops), which serve as tools to allow you to tactically retreat, and that your movement is an important part of getting away from the enemy.
Overall the rogue should feel methodical, tactical, fluid, mobile, resourceful, versatile, capable, mysterious, sneaky, and like a predator.
Combat:
I think my main criticisms are just some generic combat stuff that probably hasn't been fully fleshed out yet anyway, such as the need for more evasion/defensives, as well as wanting more of a benefit to using movement, in order to more reliably counter offensive skills and projectiles. I would also like to see more push/pull type interactions in regards to individual skills, as well as just the general feel of combat being more of a push/pull back and forth feel from a tactical perspective and more of a "death by a thousand cuts" feel to combat, rather than just blowing up the enemy instantly. Overall combat feels very "automated" and it just seems very tab heavy right now and i'm hoping to see a shift more toward the action side for a true hybrid system.
Utility:
Im really looking forward to how you plan on developing the mobility based utility skills. I love that you are willing to go in the direction of high mobility utility skills as seen with grapple hook. Im looking forward to seeing how it gets fleshed out from a gameplay feel perspective as well as seeing more utility skills and features get expanded on.
I enjoy the animations. As for the stats and theme from other games (RPG's) with these weapons types and the Rogue fantasy daggers usually have high crit and attack speed rating which IMO matches the idea of them being lighter weight more precise attack weapons unlike say a 2 Handed Great Sword.
I dont know how this relates to current stats ATM in Ashes but hearing another poster (L25 Solo Rogue) state that a Longbow and Great sword is the best dps combo for a Rogues ATM does not sound great to me for my idea of playing a Rogue.
Seeing complaints from others about both the camera of Acrobatic Strike and that it doesn't turn your character to face the enemy I think others might not be aware Acrobatic Strike is controllable mid-jump.
If you don't turn, you'll be out of melee range facing away from the target. However, if you control your camera/character to keep facing the target, you'll land in melee range on the opposite side.
IMO isn't a super high skill ceiling to do, and gives nice alternative functionality without spending a skillpoint.
Stealth.... such an absurdly overpowered mechanic for PvP. Ashes wouldn't be a real MMORPG had it not allowed griefing, I guess.
But, I take issue with what is called "stealth" in the genre. That is not stealth, that is invisibility. And it should be associated to another archetype: the ghost or the phantom.
Now, I go into the plane of the dead... (poooff!!!) Now, I am going to roam the Earth! And, you can't see me! unless I pass close to you where you feel the chills!!!! buaaahhhahahahahah!!!
The Archetype overall feels really fun. i hope that all archetype will get this much of design effort to feel fun in their own way.
Most of the skills feel fine. feint is sluggish and the camera rotation is a bit of an issue. when i constantly used it a got some motion sickness.
Advantage feels fitting. low skillfloor high skillseeling. i want that for all archetypes
i only had very little pvp (lvl10 rogue) for pve it needs to ignore friendly npcs and all mounts for the stealth distance.
I think the attack animations are okay. weapon combo finisher didnt feel better than the rest. the general weapon skilltree needs more love i the future. for all fast weapons: they dont feel that great in comparison to their counterparts (short, longbow etc) statsticks are meta from what i gathered. a slight buff or change could make more weapons feel useful. i was wondering if casting and attack speed could maybe influence cooldowns by a small margin. but maybe thats already too much and a little more stats to lessen the gap would already be enough.
Excited for the summoner to come
The only 1v1 viable "fair" fight is the class vs itself as in Rogue vs Rogue etc if you want to duel with other players.
I hope that PvP gripes do not kill the fun and design philosophy of playing the Rogue or any other class.
Padded Toolbelt:
- I think it is good for Grapple (I've taken and use it just for Grapple, I hate popping over a ledge face first into a mob)
- Could be good for Poisons if they weren't such a short duration in-combat buff (and an extra charge is much better)
- Open for griefing and abuse on Throw, Sleep Darts, Caltrops, and Smoke Bomb; with little legitimate use
I think Padded Toolbelt should be moved to a dedicated Grapple upgrade and, Poisons should be useable from Stealth without a skill. This change would have the side effect of allowing Grapple to have both 2 charges, and be used while stealthed which would mostly satisfy my desire for a Grapple cooldown upgrade.My point is not about balance. My point is invisibility is an annoying mechanic for everybody else but the ghost itself.
I don't have PvP gripes either. I have had a lot of fun in other games griefing people with overpowered mechanics. It was intended to be a constructive comment. Because, although Intrepid doesn't care about 1v1, I am pretty sure they do care about mechanics that annoy a bunch of their players but a few.
Yes I agree that invisibility can be overpowered if there are no counters to it that actually work. Especially for squishy classes such as mages and some healers. They need spells to detect invis, I thought they had this already? Does it actually work?
Having said that certain archetypes such as Rogues should be designed for taking out healers/mages as priority targets but the Rogues should be less effective vs "soldier" types classes such as Tank, Fighter, there should be a rock paper scissors thing here with general Archetypes. This is what I found fun in PvP in other MMORPGS I have played.
Main worry I have is that PvP changes to classes can often severely effect the fun and viability of classes in PvE.
Back to the rogue
Other than the obvious issue with the 20yrd range for stealth that plenty of people will complain about want to address other issues.
The worst thing is that you can use damaging abilities in stealth without removing it. applying poisons and then using throw, rinse and repeat. not fun to do, not fun to play against. they get too close, sleep dart with 5 sec extra duration due to the sleep dart passive. Then you wait the 20sec for all these to come off cd and do it again.
I think the grapple just provides too much movement, having multiple abilities that close the gap and multiple dodge rolls is plenty, The grapple allows 3D movement that can not be replicated by any class except flying mounts. If i rogue grapples up a cliff, they get away, only counter play would be to hit them in that timeframe, but CC can counter that. so if a rogue plays correctly, only another rogue will be its counter.. not exactly rock, paper, scissors when they brought a gun.
The rogue has too much healing. The healing passive when you go in stealth would be fine if you couldnt go back into stealth mid combat. added to the sap that also heals and bleed rogue is absolutely nuts. apply poisons, bleed, hemo, and sap. and then restealth for almost your entire hp.
To people who want stealth to be permanent, i dont agree, plenty of games have limited duration stealth and it only takes like 2 brain cells to look at the duration timer rather than relying on it being permanent. if you want it to be permanent then they should add a mechanic that the timer stops counting down when you are stationary and dont move. This would give you permanent stealth when you sit to eat or when you want to afk but still keeps the nice game of cat and mouse for trying to find the rogue.
Overall the rogue feels amazing, it just has TOO much going for it. It was too well designed. They have crazy cc, crazy dmg, crazy healing, plenty of gap closers, good defensives, and unmatched ability to get away with stealth and grapple.
First thoughts and impressions:
This is just like Vanilla World of Warcraft without much of anything at all to distinguish it. A bit disappointing. I had higher hopes when it was taking additional time and the Roadmap said Stealth System. I wanted something with a bit more counterplay and skill between the hider and potential spotter.
Activation:
I wish the activation restriction was a bit friendlier. I don't like needing to have one eye glued to the ability bar to see if it is enabled or not as I shuffle around to find the sweet spot between mobs I can enter/refresh stealth. When fighting in a group at High Hold I wanted to stealth between pulls to gain advantage and other stealth effects, but almost never could as ungrouped people or mobs on the other side of the wall would block me.
As a weird (and I would side negative/unwanted) side effect of the activation restriction, it can be somewhat used to detect if another hidden Rogue is in the area, since it won't let you activate stealth even if no entity is visible.
I assume the purpose of the restriction is to prevent stealth from being easily used in combat.
With the above assumptions, my desired alternative out-of-combat activation restriction mechanic would be to have an Activation Delay instead of a cooldown. You would be able to freely try and stealth at any time, but it would first set you into a 5 second 'Entering Stealth' mode (Fade into Shadows sounds like a cool name for it to me btw)
- While 'Entering Stealth', any damage interrupts the effect
- Give an increased agro component so mobs in group PvE will interrupt rogues stealthing mid-combat
- Give a shadowy graphic so it is visible stealth is starting to other players
- Begins tracking detection as if the player was already stealthed, so the player doesn't just disappear from anyone that otherwise would have detected them in stealth (some interaction with my further opinions on PvP detection here)
I think it is more fun/user friendly because I could use stealth any time I want, eyes on the game and not the UI. Could also use it in crowded situations. It makes the enemy make the "We're fighting, no you can't do that" determination instead of some arbitrary rules.Detection:
In PvE its fine for the most part. I can move around undetected without issues, which is what is needed. A bit basic, and not really what I'd call a Stealth System. Simply pass behind mobs and don't get too close to the front.
If the interaction of the 1 minute duration + the distance activation restriction is considered a method/component of detection, I'm not a fan of that. "Did you refresh stealth in an uncrowded area recently enough?" doesn't feel like good stealth gameplay.
For PvP I have some more opinions about how detection and targeting should work and dislikes about how things currently are
An example of base detection rules that would satisfy those opinions/preferences
That would be the basics, could optionally make it more complex and more of a true Stealth System by having skills/gear which adjusts the detection times/cone angles/distances. Could give a way for Rogues to see the detection areas of enemies, and see 'Suspicion' as they become detected. Could make actions/movement/sprinting on the part of the Rogue decrease the time or distance it takes to detect the Rogue
Duration:
I'm not going to cry about it if it is left at 1 minute, but I think with the duration much longer than the cooldown the duration might as well be permanent.
Let me rephrase
OUTRAGEOUSLY overpowered in 1v1 and small scale (~8v8) scenarios. This is a class with almost zero weaknesses or counters
But one thing I will say is stealth needs to be true stealth. A shimmer camo mechanic will leave stealth non-viable in an active pvp fight. Whether through just common sense keeping an eye out or just reducing video settings to spot it easier, it drastically lowers stealth viability to the point that it becomes irrelevant in pvp engagements outside of just opening up on someone unaware. Make it true stealth and just reduce its mobility or apply the shimmer/camo effect to moving faster/dodging in stealth. The minimal distance to stealth is fine, but it should only apply to hostile NPCs/Players, not to non-hostile players, guards, and no mount should prevent stealth regardless of hostility due to it not ever fighting.
I think it should be TRUE stealth since it would only be 3 seconds rather than the proximity one.