TTK and Power scaling can be easily fixed.

I was told to post some *issues* that should be changed in here,

Could a dev straight up apply a 0.5 mod to all weapons in the game? The power spike from weapons is still to crazy and this SIMPLE fix will help with TTK. the starting zone weapons give 9pp on 2h weap, the lvl 1 vendor weaps give 41... this is an INSANE jump... quadrupling dmg at lvl 1 with the WHITE vendor weapons... not even counting sanctus weapons which are even crazier... those lvl 1 vendor weapons should give around 20pp on a two hander... doubling dmg from a white vendor weapon is plenty... now the jump to lvl 10 weapons.. it does to over 80pp for the regular vendor weapons, to like 110 for the tin, and then forsaken weapons are at 160pp for white quality... so the worse lvl 10 white weapons are twice as good as the lvl 1 vendor weaps and the forsaken are 4 times stronger... so they atleast need a 50% nerf to bring them back in line. have the while bronze weapons have 40-45pp like the lvl 1 weapons currently do, and the forsaken can stay at double bronze power and have 80pp. then do the same for lvl 20 weapons as you get the picture.

TLDR: nerf weapon physical and magic power in half for every weapon except the lvl 1 starting weapons you get off the ground in the starting zone

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SmileGurney

Whatever the implementation is I hope TTK changes will also address the fairly obvious power balance issues. Unless Intrepid aims to cater with Ashes to students, jobless, and no-lifers, and I say it as a person able to play for hours every day. The game isn't for everyone as it is, don't make it so niche it will die few months after the release.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The entire scope of what PvE is in relation to players changes when you make drastic, sweeping changes like you are talking about here. Mana calculations, respawn times, cooldowns, mobs damage output - these things would all need to be basically redone from the ground up in order to support your "easy" fix to an issue that isn't related to PvE at all.

Doesn't this mean that Intrepid are barely 5% into their PvE development?

They shouldn't be.

If you are creating mobs that scale, you create every level range at once. You will then have small tweaks to make to some kobs at some level, but nothing compared to needing to redo almost every aspect of almost every mob - which is ehwt would be needed with the OP's suggestion.

Even if developers don't know what actual power players will have at any given level, they will know that player offense and defense will remain roughly on par with each other.

With thar in mind, the OP's suggestion isn't just lowering player power, it is lowering player power in an imbalanced manner - offense is going down but defense isn't. That is the reason mobs need to he redone completely - the very nature of what they are facing (players) is being drastically altered, as opposed to just going through some power scaling.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

With thar in mind, the OP's suggestion isn't just lowering player power, it is lowering player power in an imbalanced manner - offense is going down but defense isn't. That is the reason mobs need to he redone completely - the very nature of what they are facing (players) is being drastically altered, as opposed to just going through some power scaling.

Well, they've already started on some of those things, mob changed included, so we'll see where it all ends up.

SmileGurney

Dear Intrepid,

You get points for moving towards balance, but this extremely out dated view that player progression has to focus on massive vertical power progression has to go.

Based on what I have seen and heard from PTR. I would like to remind everyone we are half way to the level cap, and we are supposed to add gems and sockets. Stuff like enchanting, node buffs, scrolls and buffs already play way too strong role in player power boosting.

I like pvp sandbox MMORPGs, but this is heading straight towards the niche of a hamster wheel stat grinder, where "get gud" means insane gear grind time investment, not actually "getting good" and enjoying the game content built around player competition.

You are designing Ashes into a game which core content is built around player competition, that is fine, but that by itself is already a niche. You allow for player time investment to rig the outcome of that competition to the point that too many players willing to play a competitive MMORPG are going to simply walk away after few months, due to the stat race.

The game content is focused too much on vertical power growth, instead of horizontal progression to unlock different archetype playstyles, gear sets which enable them and different playstyles through secondary archetypes. It isn't 2003 anymore.

Sincerely,
A play(test)er with a job and life outside the game.

Ludullu

And I say keep that hardcore grind, but make it fucking harder. Right now it's the easiest damn thing in the world. People who have a ton of time should spend infinitely more time to get an infinitesimal increase in power.

Separate substats from the main enchantment effect and make the substat enchantment insaaaaanely expensive/difficult AND rng-based. Only a select few on the entire damn server should be able to get to the peak of power and only after having spent months of their time and guild-based effort/money.

SmileGurney

Ludullu wrote: »

And I say keep that hardcore grind, but make it fucking harder. Right now it's the easiest damn thing in the world. People who have a ton of time should spend infinitely more time to get an infinitesimal increase in power.

Separate substats from the main enchantment effect and make the substat enchantment insaaaaanely expensive/difficult AND rng-based. Only a select few on the entire damn server should be able to get to the peak of power and only after having spent months of their time and guild-based effort/money.

That alone won't fix the problem. Grind never fixes anything, it just sweeps the problem under the carpet, to unearth it yet again after some time.

We had almost 3 decades of MMORPG history and emerging player behaviours to show how well those games are doing, especially if mixed in with game systems based on player competition. People just leave, or never join in the first place, if a competitive game turns them into paying losers by design. Give people build, playstyle options to discover and work towards to, but limit their vertical power growth.

Leave the grind in and all those systems which add more and more power, but after hitting a specific point, power growth from stats should be extremely minimal. The same should apply to defensive stats (ironically this is a case to some degree already, like mitigations) also like CON, HP and armour.

That can be achieved only through steep diminishing returns, which apply to ALL power / stat sources: gear, enchanting, scrolls, potions, guild/node buffs, gems&sockets etc.

From PTR comments on the official discord, we still don't have diminishing returns applied to magical and physical power gained from stats. If those comments are remotely accurate, it is pure insanity at this point.

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

And I say keep that hardcore grind, but make it fucking harder. Right now it's the easiest damn thing in the world. People who have a ton of time should spend infinitely more time to get an infinitesimal increase in power.

Separate substats from the main enchantment effect and make the substat enchantment insaaaaanely expensive/difficult AND rng-based. Only a select few on the entire damn server should be able to get to the peak of power and only after having spent months of their time and guild-based effort/money.

What this achieves in the end is to make the game 'dry' and more like FF14.

A WoW+L2 hybrid can work, an FF11+L2 Hybrid can work, but an FF14+L2 hybrid cannot work.

I base this opinion on the fact that whenever I do see complaints about changes in direction for Black Desert Online or lately Throne and Liberty, it's been from the type of player who wants FF14 style gameplay.

Those players play long enough to do the story, faff about in a new guild for a month, or try out a new weapon or something. They like the novelty and being able to achieve it, they're not here to hone anything. The problem is that Ashes' approach to gameplay doesn't hold them.

Ofc, the fact that the current stat design is (imo) somehow moving even further from being effective at the thing it needs to be is not going to help, making it harder on top of that would just be building its own coffin.

No matter how much I also like games like this, I have now concluded that they do not work without a much more complex approach to this feeling.

GreatPhilisopher

SmileGurney wrote: »

Dear Intrepid,

You get points for moving towards balance, but this extremely out dated view that player progression has to focus on massive vertical power progression has to go.

Based on what I have seen and heard from PTR. I would like to remind everyone we are half way to the level cap, and we are supposed to add gems and sockets. Stuff like enchanting, node buffs, scrolls and buffs already play way too strong role in player power boosting.

I like pvp sandbox MMORPGs, but this is heading straight towards the niche of a hamster wheel stat grinder, where "get gud" means insane gear grind time investment, not actually "getting good" and enjoying the game content built around player competition.

You are designing Ashes into a game which core content is built around player competition, that is fine, but that by itself is already a niche. You allow for player time investment to rig the outcome of that competition to the point that too many players willing to play a competitive MMORPG are going to simply walk away after few months, due to the stat race.

The game content is focused too much on vertical power growth, instead of horizontal progression to unlock different archetype playstyles, gear sets which enable them and different playstyles through secondary archetypes. It isn't 2003 anymore.

Sincerely,
A play(test)er with a job and life outside the game.

yep , basically going the archeage gear system but even worse lol

SongRune

GreatPhilisopher wrote: »

SmileGurney wrote: »

Dear Intrepid,

You get points for moving towards balance, but this extremely out dated view that player progression has to focus on massive vertical power progression has to go.

Based on what I have seen and heard from PTR. I would like to remind everyone we are half way to the level cap, and we are supposed to add gems and sockets. Stuff like enchanting, node buffs, scrolls and buffs already play way too strong role in player power boosting.

I like pvp sandbox MMORPGs, but this is heading straight towards the niche of a hamster wheel stat grinder, where "get gud" means insane gear grind time investment, not actually "getting good" and enjoying the game content built around player competition.

You are designing Ashes into a game which core content is built around player competition, that is fine, but that by itself is already a niche. You allow for player time investment to rig the outcome of that competition to the point that too many players willing to play a competitive MMORPG are going to simply walk away after few months, due to the stat race.

The game content is focused too much on vertical power growth, instead of horizontal progression to unlock different archetype playstyles, gear sets which enable them and different playstyles through secondary archetypes. It isn't 2003 anymore.

Sincerely,
A play(test)er with a job and life outside the game.

yep , basically going the archeage gear system but even worse lol

That is approximately what I said when I first heard about this. I had some questions, obviously. I do not think I will be testing this particular update, myself.

Imnotkio

SmileGurney wrote: »

Dear Intrepid,
[...]
I like pvp sandbox MMORPGs, but this is heading straight towards the niche of a hamster wheel stat grinder, where "get gud" means insane gear grind time investment, not actually "getting good" and enjoying the game content built around player competition.

You are designing Ashes into a game which core content is built around player competition, that is fine, but that by itself is already a niche. You allow for player time investment to rig the outcome of that competition to the point that too many players willing to play a competitive MMORPG are going to simply walk away after few months, due to the stat race.
[...]

I am worried about their implementation choices on a genre and a niche inside it, with such low pop already, repeating some mistakes that eventually led to the downfall of many games:

1. Long leveling and progression: That's great. That's one of the things people enjoy about the more old-school games. Even the more sweaty players will have some progression to achieve long after the game launches, and the lull between progression and expansion is going to be low.

2. Big power creep and power gap: Here, we start seeing the problems. Alongside long leveling in progression, you create big power spikes, creating a big disparity between players that play hardcore (12~16h) and players that play like 4~6 hours a day (which is more than most casuals). It's good that progression is meaningful and gear matters, that's the old-school philosophy.

But when gear is the main thing that matters, even between players who started at the same time and play a little less than the other, it creates a huge problem. With a big power gap, and long leveling, how long til a new player, a guy that started 3 months late, will be able to participate in content with older players? How many new players will the game acquire and hold throughout its lifetime, and how does that not lead to a death spiral in more players quitting than joining?

3. Open-world pvp and "forced" pvp events: Again, another great design choice. The game should be always on pvp. Node wars, node sieges, PVP events, competing for gatherables and grind spots, and caravans. It's all unavoidable PvP, and it's PVP without any rank matchmaking or balance. Max level players will be fighting with players that just started the game. How will a guy who is 3 months in the game feel when he still has no chance to contribute to a defense in his node against a siege, or when he is getting killed over and over without any chance, solely because he started late, and gear is a huge part of why he is losing? Will he stick around when he keeps losing caravans to way more geared players without a chance to fight back?

4. Low TTK: In here, all the problems above get hyper-boosted. You are late to the progression, the power gap is big, and because of that, you are literally being one-shotted out of the game. You go to join a siege, you don't even have a chance of landing a spell before a random attack hits you, and you die. You don't get to press buttons in PVP until you are max level with good gear. Other than that, you die in 1 second. Will players stick around when they are unable to play the game for 3+ months before getting good gear and not dying in an instant?

Groups don't fix this. Doesn't matter how much shield or healing you throw, the guy is way weaker and he will be deleted anyway.

5. Death penalties, lost node stash, destroyed ships and caravans: So we established that the guy is weaker compared to the more try-hard players, or even started late and is tryharding, but it's still a long time before catching up. He is being deleted in 1 second because of the power differences. Every time he dies, he either gets exp debt, he loses the materials he was gathering, his caravan, or in worst-case scenarios, loses every material on his node stash. He never had the chance to win in any of these scenarios, but worst of all, he didn't even get to play. A random guy showed up and deleted him before he could react. Now he has to walk back 10~30 minutes just to get back on where he was, and maybe risk dying again in 1 second without a chance to fight.

So the guy keeps getting bodied everywhere he goes, doesn't get to participate in any of the PVP content in the game, and every time he dies without even a chance of running or fighting or playing the game, he suffers a loss. Don't worry, 3 months of this and (hopefully) that changes, and you get to be the one doing the bodying.

How many players will take that deal? Will the players who started on launch but play more casually endure this situation? For how long? How many new players will the game attract, knowing they have 3+ months of pure grinding before getting to the good parts of the game? Enough to substitute everyone who is quitting and keep the game from entering a death spiral? I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy most of those design decisions. The long leveling and progression, the open world PVP, the losses tied to death, even the part where gear matters. I just think putting them all together in the direction that is going is not gonna be healthy for the game.

Suggestions:

1. Properly saturated power curve: The power growth should be proportional to the time spent getting there. Power can really spike in the first week or two of the game, as it is a low time investment required to reach there. But after that, we need significant reductions in power growth per time spent. Every time we get deeper into the game, you should get less for the time you invest. By the time we are end game, players should be investing hundreds of hours for 0.01% power growth. That way, players can easily, in the first month reach, let's say, 90% power cap, and have enough power to at least participate in PVP content against the players that are 6 months ahead and grinding to reach 99% power. This is how old-school games have made long progression work without breaking the balance of the game and maintaining a healthy player base and new player acquisition.

2. Naturally gated progression: We already have the foundation for this. Node progression naturally gates progression by being behind the player's level. We have level 25 players using and investing in level 10 gear because level 20 enchanting was not unlocked, so level 10 was better.

With the increase in level cap and mobs dropping gear in a future launch, this won't be the case anymore. Players will completely bypass early-level crafting, rushing to max level by acquiring the gear they need to keep grinding stronger mobs. No systems in the game will matter before max level, no one will run a caravan, and no one will care about gathering low-tier mats unless it is to progress their profession. Players probably won't fight for it. This destroys the early game professions economy, increases power disparity between sweaties and casuals, and makes every single system in the game irrelevant until players reach endgame.

If low-tier mob drops are removed (rare and below), players will have no choice but to engage with the economy and make crafters relevant for gear. They will be soft-locked into progression, temporarily reducing the power gap between try-hard players and casual players. The incentive to rush to max level is reduced, because now you are in lower level gear, grinding inefficiently to reach a level that is meaningless because you won't be that much stronger than a guy that is just grinding 2 hours a day and the rest of the time engaging with all the other systems and enjoying the content. Players will have to gather, fight for resources, and run caravans even at early levels to get gear. You still have progression avenues like enchanting, increased rarity upgrades, gems, and all that in lower-tier gear, and sweaties won't run out of things to do. You retain some of that dopamine hit by substituting gear drops with valuable material drops that are used for crafting gear, and you still maintain that dopamine of dropping high rarity gear (heroic and above) without being reliable enough not to engage with the rest of the game.

3. High TTK: This one I have fought for over and over again, and won't write everything I've said previously on it. I'll just say this. In high TTK games (45~90s), even the more weaker players, new players that are behind, get to at least have a chance to run, or fight, and they actively play the game before dying. No more one-shots. You drastically remove that feeling of unfairness that players get when they die without a chance to play their character.

4. Player agency on some of the biggest losses:
I'll give the example of node sieges. Once your node is successfully sieged, citizens lose their material inventory. This will generate a feeling for the majority of players of losing their stuff without any chance to do anything about it. You are not a guild or alliance leader, you're not a mayor, you don't have control over a large number of players. All you do is be an ant in the big battle, and it's out of your control if you win or lose.

We can improve this, not by removing the losses, but by giving a player a say in what and how they lose it. You can do it through a few possibilities:

1. A special vault: Most games with big losses do this nowadays. You get a small vault that you get to keep when your base (node in this case) is destroyed. You have a choice in what you really don't want to lose, and while it keeps the losses, you remove the player's feelings of unfairness and lack of control.

2. Once a siege is declared, allow players to move their resources out through caravans. See that this is not a bailout for players. Once a siege is declared, and enemies know the citizens will be looking to move material caravans out of the node, players will totally scout for it. The risk of losing your mats is still there, and to be honest, the risk of losing your mats in the caravan might be greater than losing them in a node siege. But it gives players a choice: Do you want to bet on a siege defense, which is not in your control, or do you want to risk it on a caravan run, which could possibly be riskier but at least you have some control over the outcome.

By allowing players to choose, even though they are still likely to lose and the risk remains, they are going to feel much better about taking that L when eventually it happens.

Noaani

Ludullu wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

With thar in mind, the OP's suggestion isn't just lowering player power, it is lowering player power in an imbalanced manner - offense is going down but defense isn't. That is the reason mobs need to he redone completely - the very nature of what they are facing (players) is being drastically altered, as opposed to just going through some power scaling.

Well, they've already started on some of those things, mob changed included, so we'll see where it all ends up.

Yeah, what they are doing is adjusting mobs within the existing framework they have.

The OP's suggestion would have seen them have to throw that framework out.

Nathariel

they are nerf stat , so you broken the pve. you want reduce the ttk ... simple put a % of reduce damage in pvp. You can't balance pve and pvp, now people make less damage but have also less hp, less defence, killing npc it's more hard, killing in pvp take near the same time.

SmileGurney

Imnotkio wrote: »

I am worried about their implementation choices on a genre and a niche inside it, with such low pop already, repeating some mistakes that eventually led to the downfall of many games:
[SNIP]

You basically articulated a lot of my concerns: grind combined with large power gap in a competitive sandbox environment where a lot of core content is driven by player conflict is a combo not a lot of people are going to be willing to pay to play. The current formula leaves little space for people with limited play time, or interested in taking a break from the game, without being left behind by the power gap.

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