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The Problem With Ashes of Creation Biomes

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Saizu wrote: »
    yea its literally what i said

    Ahhh i see i missed they said nothing about OTHER than loool, missed the other and thought you where saying they where not going to do the things you wanted them to lel


    ..
    Though I'll add i feel like the zones are almost to big, if everything was more condensed there would be pois and cool areas to explore around every corner, but I do not want to go exploring get somewhere cool and then get 2 hit by a mob 5 levels under me that's 2 stars and i drop half my glint/mats due to fact that the mob reset distance being literally the size of 3 football fields

    We've 'learned from ArcheAge' that the zones should be this big.

    If one hasn't played AA or another game with a really strong economy focus (not saying you have or haven't) then one might not be as familiar with the tradeoffs between 'exploration engagement' and 'economic feelings' in world design.

    Basically players, especially solo or in smaller groups, need to have enough space to organically encounter others and not immediately think of them as direct competition (i.e. it's a choice, at least), and 'larger groups' need to experience the economic drags experienced by needing to cover larger areas (if they stay clumped they get less profit, if they spread out, then smaller groups can compete with them in short bursts).

    POIs are the current solution to this and it sounds like there will definitely be enough of those, imo.

    its funny you mention Archeage since it had similar problems but nowhere as bad.
    AA had some biomes suffering the same look with no interesting POIs and lack magic/fantasy in them and flatness to a degree while also did some good areas that had little problems and one thing for sure is they did get the atmosphere at least for a decent amount of them, Like Hasla was beautiful, hellsawmp actually felt like a jungle so did silent forest ,white arden even Ahnimar which actually felt like what a riverlands should be...etc

    they had a lot of gatherables while also not confining themselves with them so they had actual giant trees and other stuff to set the tone and atmosphere of things , a lot of the biomes just felt good to explore even when there was nothing , it was fun that at one point i found the highest mountains in the game and spent hours climbing them and i eventually did and to my surprise i actually got an achievement for it, it was so high that after that with my dragon mount i flew(glided) over the 3 continents and back twice until i hit the ground, all of that just for fun.

    anyway while archeage biomes were a mixed bag at the very least even for the worst of them they got the vibe and atmosphere for them right despite having way less freedom to make them with the technology at the time

    I think you very slightly missed my point maybe?

    AA had the same 'problems' because it is somewhat 'required' to have them, to achieve something else. Sure it's not like 'Oh, no, this absolutely cannot be done better no matter how much time or money you have' but being reasonable (and accepting that whole New World All Trees thing), that's the design space we're in.

    The Riverlands has a pretty good amount of rivers. I believe this because I can swim most of the distance between certain nodes if I want to, and that's starting from Joeva of all places. At the end of the day, the team/Steven decided to make the world large, either for Economy through resources, Economy through Caravans, or both. If you make it smaller, that suffers.

    So yeah, sometimes different parts of the Riverlands will look like the Midwestern US (which is absolutely an exaggeration because its nowhere near that monotonous or flat, not even near Winstead).
    Stellar Devotion.
  • RonDog98RonDog98 Member, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    anyway while archeage biomes were a mixed bag at the very least even for the worst of them they got the vibe and atmosphere for them right despite having way less freedom to make them with the technology at the time
    A question though, was that on release or in an early alpha?

    I know that this is a meme question at this point, but if we don't believe that Intrepid can deliver on a good vision/design of things - why da fuck are we here?

    Honestly, what worries me is the lack of energy in the forums. It seems like a lot of people aren’t here anymore.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    RonDog98 wrote: »
    Honestly, what worries me is the lack of energy in the forums. It seems like a lot of people aren’t here anymore.
    That was inevitable, with how this development has gone so far. The 2020 boom came from THAT Peon video and also covid's impact of "everyone got nothing better to do than hang around internet communities". And we've been sliding down the interaction scale ever since. And the longer the development continues - the fewer people will be interacting with it.

    This becomes even more prominent when people have a much more direct access to "what the game is". Previously that was just the monthly showcases, so there'd be hype around them, because Intrepid could be showing something big (which were very often just vertical slices of "the future"). But now we have daily streams and countless hours of vods to go through, and the showcases are most just "here's what we're fixing, here's what we're delaying, here's what you've already seen on literally all the other streams BUT NOW WITH DEVS!!".

    Not much hype can be generated by that kind presentation.
  • GreatPhilisopherGreatPhilisopher Member, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    anyway while archeage biomes were a mixed bag at the very least even for the worst of them they got the vibe and atmosphere for them right despite having way less freedom to make them with the technology at the time
    A question though, was that on release or in an early alpha?

    I know that this is a meme question at this point, but if we don't believe that Intrepid can deliver on a good vision/design of things - why da fuck are we here?

    both , i mean here this is footage of AA alpha in a jungle biome and its light years better than whatever we will have so not even memeing at this point https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbWDUxUV8hA

    we here cuz we been led to believe we are getting something else with all the talk and showcases for a decade which turned out to be lies
    ykwk7qwgw5os.jpg
  • GreatPhilisopherGreatPhilisopher Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Saizu wrote: »
    yea its literally what i said

    Ahhh i see i missed they said nothing about OTHER than loool, missed the other and thought you where saying they where not going to do the things you wanted them to lel


    ..
    Though I'll add i feel like the zones are almost to big, if everything was more condensed there would be pois and cool areas to explore around every corner, but I do not want to go exploring get somewhere cool and then get 2 hit by a mob 5 levels under me that's 2 stars and i drop half my glint/mats due to fact that the mob reset distance being literally the size of 3 football fields

    We've 'learned from ArcheAge' that the zones should be this big.

    If one hasn't played AA or another game with a really strong economy focus (not saying you have or haven't) then one might not be as familiar with the tradeoffs between 'exploration engagement' and 'economic feelings' in world design.

    Basically players, especially solo or in smaller groups, need to have enough space to organically encounter others and not immediately think of them as direct competition (i.e. it's a choice, at least), and 'larger groups' need to experience the economic drags experienced by needing to cover larger areas (if they stay clumped they get less profit, if they spread out, then smaller groups can compete with them in short bursts).

    POIs are the current solution to this and it sounds like there will definitely be enough of those, imo.

    its funny you mention Archeage since it had similar problems but nowhere as bad.
    AA had some biomes suffering the same look with no interesting POIs and lack magic/fantasy in them and flatness to a degree while also did some good areas that had little problems and one thing for sure is they did get the atmosphere at least for a decent amount of them, Like Hasla was beautiful, hellsawmp actually felt like a jungle so did silent forest ,white arden even Ahnimar which actually felt like what a riverlands should be...etc

    they had a lot of gatherables while also not confining themselves with them so they had actual giant trees and other stuff to set the tone and atmosphere of things , a lot of the biomes just felt good to explore even when there was nothing , it was fun that at one point i found the highest mountains in the game and spent hours climbing them and i eventually did and to my surprise i actually got an achievement for it, it was so high that after that with my dragon mount i flew(glided) over the 3 continents and back twice until i hit the ground, all of that just for fun.

    anyway while archeage biomes were a mixed bag at the very least even for the worst of them they got the vibe and atmosphere for them right despite having way less freedom to make them with the technology at the time

    I think you very slightly missed my point maybe?

    AA had the same 'problems' because it is somewhat 'required' to have them, to achieve something else. Sure it's not like 'Oh, no, this absolutely cannot be done better no matter how much time or money you have' but being reasonable (and accepting that whole New World All Trees thing), that's the design space we're in.

    The Riverlands has a pretty good amount of rivers. I believe this because I can swim most of the distance between certain nodes if I want to, and that's starting from Joeva of all places. At the end of the day, the team/Steven decided to make the world large, either for Economy through resources, Economy through Caravans, or both. If you make it smaller, that suffers.

    So yeah, sometimes different parts of the Riverlands will look like the Midwestern US (which is absolutely an exaggeration because its nowhere near that monotonous or flat, not even near Winstead).

    and you missed my point too , cuz despite AA having similar problems they did manage to make a lot of their biomes right which means it wasnt a problem in the first place just the design and execution of them that was.

    no one asking them to make the biome unique every 10 meters but at the very least they could of made the nodes zones of influence unique and have actual good fantasy and magical POIs that makes you want to explore them, like even having the node area have different trees would of made it better , imagine if one node area had the majority of it be braidwood while another had ash wood..etc hell this would lead to either cooperation or PVP for mats that actually feels natural instead of all the forced stuff we have right now
    ykwk7qwgw5os.jpg
  • RonDog98RonDog98 Member, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    RonDog98 wrote: »
    Honestly, what worries me is the lack of energy in the forums. It seems like a lot of people aren’t here anymore.
    That was inevitable, with how this development has gone so far. The 2020 boom came from THAT Peon video and also covid's impact of "everyone got nothing better to do than hang around internet communities". And we've been sliding down the interaction scale ever since. And the longer the development continues - the fewer people will be interacting with it.

    This becomes even more prominent when people have a much more direct access to "what the game is". Previously that was just the monthly showcases, so there'd be hype around them, because Intrepid could be showing something big (which were very often just vertical slices of "the future"). But now we have daily streams and countless hours of vods to go through, and the showcases are most just "here's what we're fixing, here's what we're delaying, here's what you've already seen on literally all the other streams BUT NOW WITH DEVS!!".

    Not much hype can be generated by that kind presentation.

    I think my concern is they are no longer getting the feedback they need. Main example: you’re the only one who has commented on the latest very important discussion thread.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    both , i mean here this is footage of AA alpha in a jungle biome and its light years better than whatever we will have so not even memeing at this point
    I mean, Intrepid have the tree model for those huge trees (the one from the pic I linked) and they said that they'll rework lighting to be darker.

    I didn't play AA, so I dunno what was their situation with gatherables. Could you cut down trees out in the open? If yes, then how many of those trees were in the jungle?

    Cause, while I do agree that AA's jungle looks quite nice, I still see it as a "our every tree is cuttable" issue.

    Btw, here's another of Steven's inspirations, which pretty much combines the jundark and tropics aesthetic.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2THX3Zu7Us
    One part of the island is full jungle with the dark canopy (lighting is bad cause this is a location from 2006), a massive tropical field with mobs that have huge aggro ranges and a beachside for the npcs.
    we here cuz we been led to believe we are getting something else with all the talk and showcases for a decade which turned out to be lies
    As I've said in the past, I see all those showcases as vertical slices of what the devs can do. But implementing that slice into the live client, at best fidelity while also the best optimization, is real damn hard.

    I'm not denying that they might still not deliver on those promises (god fucking knows I've complained enough about other design choices), but imo it's too early to say either way. They seem to be working on just pumping out the biomes themselves. I'd imagine that their next step will be integration of proper node-related systems into those biomes (this includes dungeons, mobs, POIs, visuals), after which then can start working on proper optimization and visuals.

    So I personally don't expect to see a properly good-looking location AT LEAST within this year. It'll maaaybe come around in summer of 26.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    RonDog98 wrote: »
    I think my concern is they are no longer getting the feedback they need. Main example: you’re the only one who has commented on the latest very important discussion thread.
    I think this just fits the situation I described. Livestreams no longer generate the hype. And those dev topics usually came directly from the livestream hype. And this newest topic also got posted late and seemingly only because I mentioned Steven's request for a particular kind of feedback.

    To me this just seems like classic Intrepid's bad internal communication (i.e. bad communication between the team and Steven). Steven was too busy to go through Margaret's plan for the livestream discussion, so he created some feedback requests on the fly, which then threw a wrench into mod's plans for forum topics (which are most likely dictated by Margaret's team or even just herself).

    And then on top of all that, we obviously have all the people who MIGHT'VE responded testing the Alpha, cause it's hype and all that. That topic was made 20 minutes before the servers went live, so of course no one would've cared about giving a good response to it when you gotta go grind some mobs :D
  • RonDog98RonDog98 Member, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    RonDog98 wrote: »
    I think my concern is they are no longer getting the feedback they need. Main example: you’re the only one who has commented on the latest very important discussion thread.
    I think this just fits the situation I described. Livestreams no longer generate the hype. And those dev topics usually came directly from the livestream hype. And this newest topic also got posted late and seemingly only because I mentioned Steven's request for a particular kind of feedback.

    To me this just seems like classic Intrepid's bad internal communication (i.e. bad communication between the team and Steven). Steven was too busy to go through Margaret's plan for the livestream discussion, so he created some feedback requests on the fly, which then threw a wrench into mod's plans for forum topics (which are most likely dictated by Margaret's team or even just herself).

    And then on top of all that, we obviously have all the people who MIGHT'VE responded testing the Alpha, cause it's hype and all that. That topic was made 20 minutes before the servers went live, so of course no one would've cared about giving a good response to it when you gotta go grind some mobs :D

    I hope you’re right my guy. I really do. When I have some time away from work I’m going to sit down and try to articulate my thoughts on the new player experience.

    I think I gave needs to introduce players organically but intentionally to all core aspects of a game. For example, nodes are hugely important, I think that needs to be added into the new player experience in a way.

    Another example would be the economy. Not just crafting, processing, and gathering but the economy as a whole. I think having a tutorial market stall where players have a quest to make and then sell armor or weapons on said stall would go a long way. That way we could even get rid of early level venders selling copper armor and replace them with an intro to the economy.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited May 2
    Ludullu wrote: »
    anyway while archeage biomes were a mixed bag at the very least even for the worst of them they got the vibe and atmosphere for them right despite having way less freedom to make them with the technology at the time
    A question though, was that on release or in an early alpha?

    I know that this is a meme question at this point, but if we don't believe that Intrepid can deliver on a good vision/design of things - why da fuck are we here?

    Very few people outside of Korea saw Archeage in its actual beta stage.

    The beta most players saw was the beta for localization.

    And yes, Steven's ill considered notion of making all trees able to be chopped is a barrier to good woodland and jungle areas. Archeage absolutely did not have this, it went with specific nodes for gatherables in specific, pre defined locations - as every MMORPG should.

    Edit; as to your last comment in the above quote, that is why I check in every week or ten days or so now, rather than every two or three days.
  • GreatPhilisopherGreatPhilisopher Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2
    Ludullu wrote: »
    both , i mean here this is footage of AA alpha in a jungle biome and its light years better than whatever we will have so not even memeing at this point
    I mean, Intrepid have the tree model for those huge trees (the one from the pic I linked) and they said that they'll rework lighting to be darker.

    I didn't play AA, so I dunno what was their situation with gatherables. Could you cut down trees out in the open? If yes, then how many of those trees were in the jungle?

    Cause, while I do agree that AA's jungle looks quite nice, I still see it as a "our every tree is cuttable" issue.

    Btw, here's another of Steven's inspirations, which pretty much combines the jundark and tropics aesthetic.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2THX3Zu7Us
    One part of the island is full jungle with the dark canopy (lighting is bad cause this is a location from 2006), a massive tropical field with mobs that have huge aggro ranges and a beachside for the npcs.
    we here cuz we been led to believe we are getting something else with all the talk and showcases for a decade which turned out to be lies
    As I've said in the past, I see all those showcases as vertical slices of what the devs can do. But implementing that slice into the live client, at best fidelity while also the best optimization, is real damn hard.

    I'm not denying that they might still not deliver on those promises (god fucking knows I've complained enough about other design choices), but imo it's too early to say either way. They seem to be working on just pumping out the biomes themselves. I'd imagine that their next step will be integration of proper node-related systems into those biomes (this includes dungeons, mobs, POIs, visuals), after which then can start working on proper optimization and visuals.

    So I personally don't expect to see a properly good-looking location AT LEAST within this year. It'll maaaybe come around in summer of 26.

    didnt see any huge trees unless you mean that somewhat big tree from the pics considering all of their trees seems to be midget size i wouldnt consider that "huge" at all.

    also i dunno what the hell is wrong with ashes scale , every other mmo and game the scale of things seem normal and good in ashes everything seems too small, even the little amount of things that are big feel small.

    from 2006 yet , its already dark before they got into the jungle , once they got in there it got darker and whatever light there is just a small amount that slipped between the trees then you have the greenish fog along with the big vegetation, vines,actual giant trees and actual big monster like dinosaurs ,tree creatures and fantasy looking mobs instead of tiny ass elephants and crocodiles...etc and well they actually got a decent jungle. its not so damn hard ffs

    imo there is no point of adding those biomes if at base they gonna look as terrible as they are , when even the riverland after so long still suffers the same problems i doubt anything will change really.

    i am 99% sure ashes will end up with the most bland , boring and uninteresting mmorpg world ever if they dont fix this terrible weird design they are going with

    ...i really miss AA now its stupid OSTs are annoying my brain now ugh
    ykwk7qwgw5os.jpg
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Saizu wrote: »
    yea its literally what i said

    Ahhh i see i missed they said nothing about OTHER than loool, missed the other and thought you where saying they where not going to do the things you wanted them to lel


    ..
    Though I'll add i feel like the zones are almost to big, if everything was more condensed there would be pois and cool areas to explore around every corner, but I do not want to go exploring get somewhere cool and then get 2 hit by a mob 5 levels under me that's 2 stars and i drop half my glint/mats due to fact that the mob reset distance being literally the size of 3 football fields

    We've 'learned from ArcheAge' that the zones should be this big.

    If one hasn't played AA or another game with a really strong economy focus (not saying you have or haven't) then one might not be as familiar with the tradeoffs between 'exploration engagement' and 'economic feelings' in world design.

    Basically players, especially solo or in smaller groups, need to have enough space to organically encounter others and not immediately think of them as direct competition (i.e. it's a choice, at least), and 'larger groups' need to experience the economic drags experienced by needing to cover larger areas (if they stay clumped they get less profit, if they spread out, then smaller groups can compete with them in short bursts).

    POIs are the current solution to this and it sounds like there will definitely be enough of those, imo.

    its funny you mention Archeage since it had similar problems but nowhere as bad.
    AA had some biomes suffering the same look with no interesting POIs and lack magic/fantasy in them and flatness to a degree while also did some good areas that had little problems and one thing for sure is they did get the atmosphere at least for a decent amount of them, Like Hasla was beautiful, hellsawmp actually felt like a jungle so did silent forest ,white arden even Ahnimar which actually felt like what a riverlands should be...etc

    they had a lot of gatherables while also not confining themselves with them so they had actual giant trees and other stuff to set the tone and atmosphere of things , a lot of the biomes just felt good to explore even when there was nothing , it was fun that at one point i found the highest mountains in the game and spent hours climbing them and i eventually did and to my surprise i actually got an achievement for it, it was so high that after that with my dragon mount i flew(glided) over the 3 continents and back twice until i hit the ground, all of that just for fun.

    anyway while archeage biomes were a mixed bag at the very least even for the worst of them they got the vibe and atmosphere for them right despite having way less freedom to make them with the technology at the time

    I think you very slightly missed my point maybe?

    AA had the same 'problems' because it is somewhat 'required' to have them, to achieve something else. Sure it's not like 'Oh, no, this absolutely cannot be done better no matter how much time or money you have' but being reasonable (and accepting that whole New World All Trees thing), that's the design space we're in.

    The Riverlands has a pretty good amount of rivers. I believe this because I can swim most of the distance between certain nodes if I want to, and that's starting from Joeva of all places. At the end of the day, the team/Steven decided to make the world large, either for Economy through resources, Economy through Caravans, or both. If you make it smaller, that suffers.

    So yeah, sometimes different parts of the Riverlands will look like the Midwestern US (which is absolutely an exaggeration because its nowhere near that monotonous or flat, not even near Winstead).

    and you missed my point too , cuz despite AA having similar problems they did manage to make a lot of their biomes right which means it wasnt a problem in the first place just the design and execution of them that was.

    no one asking them to make the biome unique every 10 meters but at the very least they could of made the nodes zones of influence unique and have actual good fantasy and magical POIs that makes you want to explore them, like even having the node area have different trees would of made it better , imagine if one node area had the majority of it be braidwood while another had ash wood..etc hell this would lead to either cooperation or PVP for mats that actually feels natural instead of all the forced stuff we have right now

    Ah, that's my bad, I assumed that you were expecting those things based on what they've said/promised in the past, but it's also true that they've backtracked or made weird decisions about previous promises, so your reaction is probably better.

    If I try to imagine my reaction to seeing what they're showing now with no prior stuff, I'd still give it a pass for most places. Maybe I'd understand better if I went and looked around wherever you normally hang out in the Riverlands?

    I know that Halcyon does sometimes give me the vibe of 'yeah this is all basically the same', for example.
    Stellar Devotion.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    idnt see any huge trees unless you mean that somewhat big tree from the pics considering all of their trees seems to be midget size i wouldnt consider that "huge" at all.
    The one in the pic looks like it's ~3 times bigger than the choppable tree next to it. And the choppable trees are usually ~3 times taller than chars.

    As for comparatively to other games, yes, that's smaller. But imo that's just a subjective preference. To me it doesn't make sense when you have insanely huge things in a world full of tiny beings. I simply don't care too much about visual design, so I ultimately don't care, which is why both L2 and Ashes are fine to me.
    i am 99% sure ashes will end up with the most bland , boring and uninteresting mmorpg world ever if they dont fix this terrible weird design they are going with
    I mean, if you don't believe they can do a good job, then I really dunno if there's a reason to keep following the game.

    Yes, you can keep giving feedback, but if you either think that they're not listening to it or simply can't do it - there's no point in thinking that the game can ever become good.
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