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Dev Discussion #74 - Rogue Archetype

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Comments

  • Mr_MayhemMr_Mayhem Member, Alpha Two
    This will be my 2nd post on rogue after the update recently. Rogue is OP. I know more balancing is coming but the issue i want to address is that rogue is not op because of stealth. Its the insane crit chance base and damage. I don't really have a complaint with your stealth system in general but it needs to be tweaked bad. 15m range is still too far. I don't know if cast range and detection ranges can be different but its too easy to spot and track a rogue stealthed. Also if there is a way to not be observed by non combatant players this would be ideal. Someone following you around and stopping you from using stealth is absolutely a horrid idea. I understand if players were combatant for pvp but in a pve setting this ruins it. I also feel with the system you have for rogue there has to be a long cd vanish ability for large scale pvp that allows you to vanish in combat closer than the range on stealth.
  • AlzeidoAlzeido Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Honestly it feels simply too mobile. between the blinks, dashes, stealths grapples, flips tumbles, its just way way too much on one character. I do think also that a BIG issue with it is that rogues can loot corpses then dash 1 or 2 times to get stealth range, stealth and then nobody can do anything about the invisible flagged rogue looting everybody.

    but besides that it's nice and balanced.
  • VargosVargos Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 13
    Hello!
    Want to post an updated review.
    Vaknar wrote: »
    General Rogue Feedback - What feels fun, and what doesn’t? Which abilities do you like best, and which abilities do you feel need the most improvement?
    Feels fun: the impact of player skills, dynamic attacks, and interesting gameplay in general.

    Feels doesn't fun:
    1. Comparing the class with the warrior class: it has worse survivability and at the same time deals less damage and has longer CDs. Eeven if you hit it in the back, do all correct, both in PVE and PVP, both one target and AOE). And in general, all skills have too low dmg compared to other classes, even in numbers. Which is quite strange. It is not clear, then, what the strength of this class? Even compared to the warrior. It is clear that it is speed and invisibility, but this is very controversial.
    2. it still makes more sense to use a two-handed sword (even after the update). And it's not just the damage, but also ease of tracking the finisher, it's much more convenient when it's for 3 hits, so, for example: after the Feint skill, it's much more convenient to hit 3 times with a two-handed sword than 6 times with daggers. It also feels much faster. Same with longbow.
    3. In fact, there are not enough ways to gain an advantage. This is easy to control and gain during a PVE, but almost impossible in a PVP, especially a large-scale.
    4. Many abilities require tracking the duration of a buff on yourself or a debuff on an opponent. But this is almost impossible due to the small size of related icons. It's impossible to see the duration, the number of stacks, not to mention the fact that sometimes it's not clear what buff/debuff is applied at all, especially on the target. But this is not a problem of the class.
    5. The requirement to use weapon combo finishers for some abilities is very annoying. Especially with dagged. Feels too long and very uncomfortable. Especially in PVP.

    Now about skills:
    Stealth - 10 sec CDs are very annoying when they come out of state, the Impossibility of going into stealth with enemies nearby makes this ability almost useless in mass PvP (yes, you have smoke bomb, but its 90 seconds CD!).
    And in general, it feels like a very useless skill in pvp because you are very visible. Taking into account the reduction in movement speed (which also seems unnecessary), you can die from AOE skills faster than you reach the target. Even during a battle, there is no point in moving away and using stealth, as they can simply see you in stealth.
    And regarding PVE its very uncomfortable when you don't understand when and why mobs can see you. You are running calmly and they start to attack you, it is very uncomfortable. If the conditions were clear, it would be easier, maybe. But on my opinion - rouge must be totally invisible for mobs. And more invisible for players for example - more visible on 5m range, but not as it works now.
    And at the very least, I think they should remove the stealth restrictions on mobs. It's very strange and annoying.
    And yes, also, its too strange, that you cannot use Stealth if a horse see you :cold_sweat:

    Ambusher passive - looks like 10% this is not enough for a rogue's skill, provided that it is not so easy to get behind the target (I mean in PVP).
    Stab - sometimes the backstabbing didn't work, and I was right behind the target, maybe sometimes a little bit behind and to the side.
    Acrobatic strike - sometimes it throws you too far away, and then you have to run to the target. Maybe it could be better if it will be more fixed to target back.
    Poisons - It's not very clear why they have the option to take two, but both goes into CD when you use it? Also it feels like this skill need to be usable without breaking Stalth.
    Sap - skill and its mechanics are very unclear for user. It deals damage from stacks, but how many stacks does the poison deal? This is also not specified. And it's impossible to track because of the small debuff icons, as I mentioned above.
    Feint - It's very inconvenient that you have to use the auto-attack finisher to gain an advantage, it feels too long and too boring. Especially with 6 dagger hits. Also, sometimes this skill didn't seem to work and the buff didn't apply / didn't get an advantage after the finisher. Also, sometimes this skill trow me far - far away.
    Shadowstep - 15 meters feels like too much to take advantage.
    Smoke Bomb - interesting skill, but its not too usable during pvp (only for stealth), because opponent can just press "Ctrl" and he will be out of range of this bomb. It feels like this skill needs some effect, like dodge blocking. And 3 sec CD of stelth in it feels to long during pvp. Also this skill have too long CD, in my opinion Rouge need to have faster CD of spells. 90 seconds its really too long.
    Umbral Cloak - this skill also have too long CD, in my opinion Rouge need to have faster CD of spells. 90 seconds its really too long.
    Death Mark - this skill also have too long CD, in my opinion Rouge need to have faster CD of spells. 90 seconds its really too long. Especially, conditions to use this skill is not too easy during PVP.
    Caltrops - Interesting skill mechanics, but if you use it to deal damage, the damage is too low. If you use it to drop from a mount, it's only if the target is standing still, if the target is running, it's very difficult to drop with a 20% chance.
    Padded toolbelt - It is not very clear whether the effectiveness of stealth is reduced in general or when using these abilities.
    Shadow Cascade - A bit unpredictable and has a very, very long CD.
    Expanded toolbelt - it feels that if you added both toolbelt (maybe with skills effects decreasing, for example one toolbelt with full skill effects, to two toolbelts but with skill effects decreasing), the game would feel much more dynamic.
    In general, the skills are very interesting, but some have really very long CD.
    Also, some of them I think should be used in basic stealth, like poison and sleep dart.


    Vaknar wrote: »
    Visual Effects (VFX) and Sound Effects (SFX) - How do you feel about current VFX and SFX for the Rogue archetype? While these are a work in progress, we want to know what you like, and what you don’t.
    Visual effects look pretty good for current graphics. But some skills look like auto-attacks.
    Sound effects - subjectively I'm completely satisfied. But I'm not picky about sound, sometimes I play without sound at all (or with minimal).
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rogue Class Mechanic “Advantage” - How does it feel to generate this resource and spend it to empower abilities?
    As I mentioned above, there is a lack of sources of advantage. I mean about PVP, because it is very difficult to find suitable conditions to gain an advantage and implement the class at least partially. I emphasize that I am talking about more large scale PVP or party vs party PVP. In PVE, it is very easy and convenient to keep an advantage and use it. Basically, it is a very interesting and dynamic class implementation system.

    Vaknar wrote: »
    Rogue Stealth - How does this feel to use in PvE? How does this feel to use in PvP?
    Sorry, but ill copy and paste from my skills review above:
    10 sec CDs are very annoying when they come out of state, the Impossibility of going into stealth with enemies nearby makes this ability almost useless in mass PvP (yes, you have smoke bomb, but its 90 seconds CD!).
    And in general, it feels like a very useless skill in pvp because you are very visible. Taking into account the reduction in movement speed (which also seems unnecessary), you can die from AOE skills faster than you reach the target. Even during a battle, there is no point in moving away and using stealth, as they can simply see you in stealth.
    And regarding PVE its very uncomfortable when you don't understand when and why mobs can see you. You are running calmly and they start to attack you, it is very uncomfortable. If the conditions were clear, it would be easier, maybe. But on my opinion - rouge must be totally invisible for mobs. And more invisible for players for example - more visible on 5m range, but not as it works now.
    And at the very least, I think they should remove the stealth restrictions on mobs. It's very strange and annoying.
    And yes, also, its too strange, that you cannot use Stealth if a horse see you :cold_sweat:

    Vaknar wrote: »
    Dagger Weapon Combos - What do you like about Dagger weapon combos, and what do you feel needs improvement?
    They feel very slow. Especially in pvp. It feels that its too much harder to make a weapon combo finisher during pvp with daggers than with a two-handed sword (its really faster) or, especially, longbow (just forced to use it in PVP as main weapon, unfortunately).
    And in general, it's very unpleasant that you have to use a bow for combo finishers in PvP, because otherwise you can't fully realize them. But its not only about rouge.
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