Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about Phase II and Phase III testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Blown past falling sands…
You are doing a great job of pointing out why an open alpha may not be a good idea for games. Why did you pay to be a part of an alpha without even looking in to what an alpha is?
At least in the way it's currently being done, no it's not good for Ashes. I think it's doing more bad than good. As far as why? I wanted to support the game mostly. Money and testing feedback. But I don't feel my time has been valued so I have stopped testing. For reasons I've already said.
Because you clearly have no idea, I'm going to dumb things down a little for you. The following descriptions aren't 100% correct, they are designed to get you closer to accurate thinking.
Balance is a part of design. It is the part of design that deals with numbers. If you have an issue that involves a number, it is a balance issue. If an equal level, solo mob hits you for 10x more HP than you have, that is a balance issue. If a crafted item asks for too many or too few materials for it to be worth what the end results numbers are, that is a balance issue.
TTK and enchanting are balance issues. Enchanting is a part of the TTK issue - an issue that in itself already involves tens or hundreds of thousands of numbers, each of which need to be considered (by the time the game releases, this number is likely to be 7 digits).
The caravan despawn issue is a bug, not a balance issue.
Again this is just your opinion. You speak without authority from Intrepid. You can be all as matter factly as you want about it, it still doesn't make it fact.
Balance, design. None of this really matters even if it wasn't your or my opinions. What exists in the game is what exists, it's what people can test. If we should test it because it's not ready it should be there.
Link where intrepid says the caravan despawn is a bug. That'd actually be useful information from you for once.
Right now, you aren't supposed to be testing if the crafting in the game feels good, you are supposed to be testing if the game crashes your GPU or not. What you do in game is very much of secondary interest to Intrepid right now, behind whether or not you get actually get in and stay in the game. If things are locked behind a huge grind, that just means you will have more to do so you stay online longer and thus increase the chances of those issues arising.
This is not what Steven has said in his streams. He's said go out and test things Vera and do stuff so we can collect data, basically. Again you are not an authority on this.
If it were true why are they focus on balancing TTK, the work on enchanting, ect? Those ain't crashing your game, but they've chosen to work on them.
This is an alpha test, not a beta test.
Yep. And in the alpha test they are adding features (systems like crafting), which we can test. In beta the features will be in and they'll start working on making sure they are fun and fair, theoretically. So testing crafting now to make sure the windows don't crash and the system works is what testers should be doing, assuming Steven is to believed that this type of testing actually matters. Find that links, amounts, or the general practicality of crafting is broken is something that should be fixed before beta. Beta will be the time to tune those things so they are balanced correctly.
The only complaint I can see that has even a shred of validity that you could make is that Intrepid never set your expectation for what an alpha test is. However, you purchased access to an alpha test, you should have informed yourself before making that purchase. What we have now is better than what an alpha test should be.
They should have been more clear, but they were ambiguous on purpose to attract more buyers. I'd have done the same. They NEED people to test. But real alpha testing is work, and generally your time is respected and your actions are directed. Not the case here unless you have a big following so they can get more PR. So there's some shadyness behind this too.
Lets just say there's 100 features or systems in the game right now at this moment. If they are only focusing on 10 of those features, why have people test the other 90? It's there, and no one from intrepid said not to test it. So people are. Is it for the fun of the tester? Are they actually collecting any data from it? Okay well how much can they take before they get fed up with it? They're bleeding testers. The amount of time it takes for someone to map out crafting is immense, they should know that, why allow your testers to do it if there's no value? Which you also claim it's pointless to test some of these features too. Why not direct the testers to the meaningful features where their efforts aren't so wasted?
Ashes is doing an open alpha, open development, and it's driving a lot of people away. Whether this is from the crafting focused players to the pvp focused players. This is from poor communication from the dev team to the tests and the lack of actual details out there about what testing is for Ashes, what these features are intended to be like, so you can't really blame testers for not understanding Steven vision. At this point I don't think he has fulling thought it out.
That is where the kind of thing you obviously want to be doing will be both possible and valued.
While I have been somewhat blunt with you, my point all along has been that you are not in the mindset of an alpha tester, you are in the mindset of a beta tester. These are very different things - as I have been trying to explain to you and you have been refusing to listen to.
It isn't on Intrepid to explain to you what an alpha test is, it is on you to understand that before purchasing access to one.
No, this is just fact. There is no opinion in here at all. You think it is opinion because it is a fact you do not know, and don't want to hear from me.
I'm not a game developer, I don't work at Intrepid, but I am involved in software development, and have close to a decade of tertiary education associated with it. In this specific case, the source I am citing is myself, as a subject matter expert.
I am giving you factual information. You are claiming it is an opinion. You are being one of those people that need community comments to correct them.
Not quite.
There isn't the hard deliniation between alpha and beta that you seem to think. Testing a game doesn't suddenly change just because the name of the test has changed.
Rather, testing changes gradually. In an MMORPG, you start out testing things like your network backend, server architecture and client stability. We are essentially nearing the end of this.
Sure, Steven said "go out and test things so that we can gather data", but the data they are collecting is in relation to the above things, not in relation to those systems themselves. I don't know how Steven could be more clear with this - he said go out and test so that they could collect data. They are collecting that data from you just being in the testing environment.
Again, targeted testing is a thing, but that is not what we are doing right now. You say the test is directionless, that you haven't been told what to test. That is in conjunction with you being told that Intrepid are collecting the data - and yet when someone like myself spells it out for you, you refuse to listen.
At some point, you need to understand that it is you, not them.
Because they want people in the test environment, generating activity.
The mistake you are making with this comment is the notion that they are working on 10 systems that are already in the game. They are not. The people that will eventually work on balancing and fixing those systems are currently busy creating other systems and content. That is where you should want them to be - not "fixing" systems that are still waiting on dependent systems and so will need to be refixed when the remaining systems are added in.
Why would you even want Intrepid to slow down development of the game right now? You may not realize it (you should by now, with how many times I have told you), but taking developers off of creating new systems in order to "fix" ones that are already in the test environment is a waste of developer time.
As I have said before, come back for beta test.
That is where the kind of thing you obviously want to be doing will be both possible and valued.
I'm not currently testing right now, I'll jump back in P3. But yeah Beta is more fun and the things I really want to test will be better hashed out as the timeline moves right, that's like saying water is wet...
This isn't my point though. My point is the lack of communication from the devs on this point. Again you and I are not an authority on it. What if they are getting valuable feedback and you're sitting here telling people to stop testing because it's pointless.. That's what you're doing...
No, this is just fact. There is no opinion in here at all. You think it is opinion because it is a fact you do not know, and don't want to hear from me.
It's opinion. Without specific direction from the devs, everything we say is opinion unless you can provide something of substance beside your words. The open dev alpha is different and the way they're going about it is different. What's different is up for them to decide, not you or me.
Rather, testing changes gradually. In an MMORPG, you start out testing things like your network backend, server architecture and client stability. We are essentially nearing the end of this.
This hasn't even be challenged by you or me, or anyone. I actually think they've done a superb job on this. I do worry a little about the server meshing and the performance in the Nodes as the grow. But on the other hand they've worked on other balance issues as needed that evolve around combat, I'm just in the camp I want to see some improvements on crafting or other things. If they can do combat why not some crafting love? A word from Intrepid on when crafting will get this love would have prevented this whole convo, we could just link the wiki for it, but to my knowledge that doesn't exist.
Again, targeted testing is a thing, but that is not what we are doing right now. You say the test is directionless, that you haven't been told what to test. That is in conjunction with you being told that Intrepid are collecting the data - and yet when someone like myself spells it out for you, you refuse to listen.
Okay so what camp are you in now? Keep testing crafting for them to collect this "valuable data" or for people like the OP to stop testing because it's probably pointless? Because this is my point, either it has value to test crafting or it doesn't, but you're drawing arbitrary lines one where that value is without any authority to do so. With the effect of killing peoples motivations to test things they want or test at all.
Because they want people in the test environment, generating activity.
The mistake you are making with this comment is the notion that they are working on 10 systems that are already in the game. They are not. The people that will eventually work on balancing and fixing those systems are currently busy creating other systems and content. That is where you should want them to be - not "fixing" systems that are still waiting on dependent systems and so will need to be refixed when the remaining systems are added in.
Yes they want people to generate activity, and because the lack of direction they're burning testers out with a pointless grind through incomplete systems without direction or stating the value they've provided. A big reason they're bleeding testers.
Second part you completely missed by adding your words to it or taking it literal... Are you saying there aren't 10 systems in the game or that there are and they're not working on them?? ...anyways.... The systems that in the game are all incomplete of course, again water is wet. Combat is in the game, and it's getting active balancing with gear, stats, enchanting, ect reworked. This is because people gravitate toward combat and not having a good balance in combat will drive testers away. The same can be said for crafting to a lesser degree. At no point did I say stop working on server meshing, or vassal system, or summoner, or well anything that isn't in the game yet. I'm saying two things basically this whole time. 1. You telling people their testing is pointless, directly or indirectly is only devaluing peoples efforts and motivation to provide valuable feedback. 2. Intrepid should communicate better with the testers on what they're doing. The live streams seem more geared towards generating more interest for new earlier buyers than providing feedback to the testers on their feedback. As testers walk away this will have ripple effects on the direction of game and overall success of it.
At least I can say these are my opinions, I can't point you to specific streams, articles, ect, but nor am I trying to convince you or anyone. Just using the forum as a forum. And I'd rather encourage people who care about things like crafting to test and provide their feedback rather than tell them their testing is pointless and crafting is met to be tested or balance yet, because I can't verify that, I suspect it, but why rub salt in the wound of those who've spent 150 hours getting GM or something else for possibly no reason, maybe?. To each their own, but your kind of a prick to people about it. So hear we are full circle at least three times, shall we continue farther?
Yes you talked about server stability, but why did we go down to just 1 server? cause we lost alot of "testers" and why did we do that? cause people are tired of the grind, without journeyman crafting there is no point to even try testing crafting when we can just gather drops which means crafting isnt being tested and we could have a situation with a crafted item just crashing the game upon equip, but we wont know that cause its so hard to grind and craft.
I love this game, but obviously people are done with the grind, they should just level the nodes and put in Journeyman crafting, set all the values of gatherable the same so we can have ample common, uncommon, rare, heroic, epic, legendary, artifact to craft and test so we dont accidently have a focus that crashes players games on equip. running caravans is so common "hay look out for this spot it teleports your caravan to out of bounds" hay dont get this boss on you it has no unrage distance and will follow you all the way from the desert to the tropics before it decides to turn around and walk into a town's bank.
Let the players test the game not pretend its a seasonal content game (which to me it is, ive played launched games that were more alpha then this, this is an incredibly built game and I want to see it succeed)
Worse still, everyone would be in the same gear, with probably the same or similar spec. This means we aren't generating a variety of activity, we are all generating smaller amounts of similar activity.
As I've said to Volgaris, testing the economy isn't what we are here for right now. We are here to generate activity - you seem to understand this based on the above.
People are indeed largely done with the grind. But you can guarantee Intrepid got a good amount of data - which was the point.
That was Intrepid being blatantly clear.
You just missed the meaning of that.
The thing with communication, especially when it is one person or group communicating to many, you can't always blame the one speaking. Sometimes, the fault falls on the person listening. This isn't as applicable in one on one communication, as there is an expectation of clarification there. That expectation does not exist when one person or group is communicating to many though, as that is unreasonable.
Fact is, I knew what this phase of the test was about before I heard that comment from Steven (which I first knew about when you mentioned it above). You knew he said that Intrepid will be collecting data, and yet still didn't understand what this phase was about.
How are you able to blame that on Intrepid, and not on yourself? That is an honest question. I think you lost point of what this specific point of our discussion was about.
I explained to you the difference between points of balance, and bugs. You said it was an opinion, because Intrepid hadn't stated that to be the case.
This is an incorrect way of looking at things. What I am stating is not something that changes from developer to developer, it is a set, factual, objective thing. If you list off a whole pile of bugs and balance points to a develoepr working on a different game, they would be able to tell you which is a bug and which is a point of balance with absolute accuravy, because these are objective things.
Your argument here would be like going to a restaurant, and claiming to not be able to indentify any foodstuffs or cooking techniques used in your mean unless the chef tells you that is how it was done. Something may look like peas, but if the chef didn't tell you it was peas, as far as you are concerned it could be salmon.
Your argument here is just not a valid position to hold. Intrepid do not decide what is a bug and what is a balance point, these things are just notions that exist.
Test crafting if you wish, but understand that the value of your testing is in the data Intrepid are collecting, as they very clearly stated.
Yes, people are burned out with the specific phase of testing - but that is due to this phase lasting longer than intended, and the next phase being delayed.
You keep talking about a "lack of direction". I'm not sure what you mean by this. You seem to want Intrepid to direct testers to specific systems or content - but that isn't the point of this phase of testing.
The direction they gave was that they want you online, generating activity so that they could collect data. What more direction could you possibly ask for than that?
yall are arguing which is neet but its still dancing around the point of the post. without all the systems in place you cant accurately test the economy so why make people grind, just have us have all the money and test anything and everything.
I touched on this a bit. This specific reason is the biggest cause in my testing pause. Grinding through incomplete and broken systems just wore me down. Not the grinding of mobs or POIs, I can do that a lot, but there wasn't enough out there to change things up to get me to engage more in the crafting, gathering, nodes, ect. I find the life skills a important gameplay balance to just combat. But the incomplete recipes, broken inventories, random loot loses, and wipes, just killed those systems for me so I ignored them for the most part.
Also not sure if you seen the May dev stream, but they did touch on some of this. So it does look like it'll get be getting attention soon. It starts at about 1 hour 8 minutes in. I'm not sure how I missed this. The whole Economy segment is very promising overall.
Yes, this is what I have been telling you all along. You have been saying "you can't tell me the water is wet, even thought it is blatantly obvious, I want to hear it from Intrepid". Seemingly, you think Intrepid have time to craft an indivual comment for every tester.
I try not to make assumptions about stuff, and I tend not to believe random people on the internet especially if they come off as "know it all". I don't want a custom response from Intrepid, I want more Dev -> Tester communication on things we should test, this is like the fourth time I've said this lol. The testers are leaving for many reason, and Intrepid can ignore them and let them go or they could try to address. I just stand on the side of saying they should communicate better and you're on the side saying they're doing just fine.
How are you able to blame that on Intrepid, and not on yourself? That is an honest question.
Hm, well to try to explain my POV a little better. I'm retired, I got a lot of free time. Testing software and custom engineered systems is something I'm professionally familiar with. Not games granted, aside from a alpha/betas for random games, mmos and none mmos. But nothing professional level.
I see this testing method as a waste of resources, the testers (anecdotical), and probably the devs too (just an outsider looking in like you, so it's possible) I could be completely wrong, the devs could be super happy with the current situation, either way they should feel extremely proud in what they've made so far, it really is awesome, but not without concerns. So why do I think it's a waste of resources.
1. Steven said go play/engage with the world, without limits to that. So they can "collect data". I'm sure they need to collect data, and i'm sure they got a lot of data.
2. The devs have actively worked on balance issues revolving around combat/stats/enchanting ect.
3. These balances were needed to keep people interested and playing.
4. Were down to 1 server, under the official reason (i think, i forgot really) of "to tester server loads". I'm skeptical on that. I think they needed to condense the servers down because the testers have been dropping out. I see this as the canary in the coal mine, the first sign something is wrong. From 3 to 2 to 1 servers.
5. So now you got a population of testers extremely interested in how crafting, gathering, ect is going to work and they're digging deep into through this massive grind and broken/incomplete systems.
6. People are only going to interact with these systems for so long under this level of burden. For example I don't care about balance at this point, in regards to how many X does it take to make Y. I want to know if I can get X from the game and if making Y from the system actually produces Y. How does it work? How does the UI feel? Anything extra I find along the way like it take 16k willow for X or how will a player hold all this? are just extra notes I've added to a ticket. Due to the limited nation of resources and the balance of the X to Y ratio these system are nearly impossible to test. (Yes I know you say we should be testing them, okay lets say your right that the Devs have zero value from these tests, what should we be testing?).
7. Because there is no direction from Intrepid saying don't 'waste time' on XYZ, people are needlessly spinning their wheels getting burnt out testing this. Or something from Intrepid saying "Thanks for your responses to these issues in XYZ we're working on balancing/fixing/refactoring on such and such date."
8. The burn out of testers wouldn't be so much an issue if we're still at the January number of testers.
9. I see testers, even if they bought into the test, as part of the team in a small way. I don't believe they are being used properly or respectfully.
Try not to twist words on that if you really want to have an honest conversation.
I think you lost point of what this specific point of our discussion was about.
I think we're both arguing two different things. Not to be rude, but I don't value your opinion. You've never been part of a dev team from what you've said, so you've always been on the outside looking in. I've been inside, not intrepid or game development (doesn't pay enough) but several other teams. And none of them do it the same. Each project will require different methods and processes to complete it on time and efficiently. And avoiding worker burnout is a huge issue for all teams. I think it boils down to "things you don't know you don't know". I know how different each development team can be (and this isn't balance vs bugs semantics). But leadership, communication, and planning are critical. I personally see from my perspective that communication is the lacking issue, but it could anything really. Yet here you are trying to communicate on behalf of Intrepid based off your 'alpha testing experience'. Which is fine and welcome actually in most cases, but there's not a hint of humility behind it which I find comical because you've only tested.
Test crafting if you wish, but understand that the value of your testing is in the data Intrepid are collecting, as they very clearly stated.
Yes, people are burned out with the specific phase of testing - but that is due to this phase lasting longer than intended, and the next phase being delayed.
You keep talking about a "lack of direction". I'm not sure what you mean by this. You seem to want Intrepid to direct testers to specific systems or content - but that isn't the point of this phase of testing.
The direction they gave was that they want you online, generating activity so that they could collect data. What more direction could you possibly ask for than that?
1. Yes it was clearly stated they wanted data. I get that. To me that's like saying "do the thing".
2. Extend phase of testing is a reason people dropped and the removal of lawless zones upset many pvp focused players. As well as the wipe. But not limited to that. And before 2.5 there was a pretty large drop testers.
3. Again, "do the thing" isn't direction to me.
4. Either direction to not engage with a system because there are known bugs/issues, or to engage in something. Or ease the burdensome grind to test these broke buggy systems. You don't waste testers time so much. Either put up guard rails or give them ability to test more efficiently. IMO this is main reason they've lost a lot of the more causal testers. Pvper and HC players will probably test every minute to get any advantage they can over others, and they'll dredge with shit with a smile doing it. So now will the game be tailored to the Pvpers and HC players because that's the only testers left? Or can Intrepid keep a fair and balanced game that will attract a health population of causal players? I don't know. I like HC games and I got free time, maybe I'll still play. I play MO2 and other HC games. But I wouldn't call those successful money wise.
It's more of the ripple effects of their testing plan/methods, ect that I have a problem with. Which my opinion doesn't mean anything, they should keep doing what they think they should do to make it successful. I don't want to do it lol.
Both of these are reasonable, but there is a thing you are not doing that you should - applying logic.
The thing about the internet - everyone is here. If you think of a random topic - anything at all - the foremost expert on that topic in the entire world is on the internet.
The other thing to keep in mind, people that know a good amount on a topic tend to be attracted towards discussions on that topic. So, generally speaking, the answers you get on the internet tend to be, on average, more knowledgeable on the topic at hand than if you asked random people, or if you asked your circle of friends.
If you ask a random question on the internet, there is a better than zero chance that you will get an answer from the one person that knows the most on that topic. While I am in no way saying that this is me in this situation, the point stands.
That isn't to say there aren't still random people on the internet answering questions who have no idea what they are talking about, there absolutely are. You have even had a number of these people attempt to answer your questions.
However, that is where applying that logic comes in. If you get an answer, and that answer does fit the question you have, then it is probably the correct answer. This is compounded by a continued lack of any other really viable answer - if you get no other viable answer for an extended period of time it means either people that do know the answer have seen an incorrect answer and not corrected it (doesn't generally happen), or there is no one around that CAN answer the question.
The only other option is that there are multiple people that can answer the question, but they see the question has already been answered, and so move along.
So again with applying logic to your situation - which do you believe is most likely here? Do you believe that you asked a fairly basic set of questions and got an answer that you didn't like, or do you believe you asked a fairly basic set of questions no one around is capable of providing you with an answer?
If you believe there is something else going on - why we would have been having this discussion for so long and no one else has really come in with a viable answer, if you do not believe you already have the answer yet do believe someone out there is capable of answering for you and yet hasn't done so, I'd love to hear your logic there.
You've never alpha tested an MMORPG before.
I fully believe you have beta tested one, and probably been involved in Early Access for one. However, you have not alpha tested one.
As I have said before, this the the most organised alpha test for an MMORPG I have ever seen. Your complaints do not make sense if you have been involved in MMORPG alpha testing. If Intrepid say "go out and generate activity so that we can collect data" and you feel you need more direction that this, that is a you problem.
Yes, the alpha is losing testers all the time, but that isn't a problem at all. Those testers will all be back with the next phase, and the phase after that, and every testing phase until the game goes live. Each time, they will find themselves staying a little longer in the test environment as it gets closer and closer to being a game.
That is what happens in alpha testing.
The thing about the internet - everyone is here. If you think of a random topic - anything at all - the foremost expert on that topic in the entire world is on the internet.
Lol. Yeah the needle in the hay stack. It's there ... somewhere... Waldo?
So again with applying logic to your situation - which do you believe is most likely here? Do you believe that you asked a fairly basic set of questions and got an answer that you didn't like, or do you believe you asked a fairly basic set of questions no one around is capable of providing you with an answer?
Actually some of it was touch on in the last Dev stream from May. I just seen it yesterday. You can look at the economy section. That would have been enough to shut me half up. I linked it to OP in my response to them. Starting at about 1 hour in they talk about the economy, and talk about many of those issues we JUST talked about. If you knew of that you should have referenced it, THAT would have been helpful, I think it came out just a few days ago though.
If you believe there is something else going on - why we would have been having this discussion for so long and no one else has really come in with a viable answer, if you do not believe you already have the answer yet do believe someone out there is capable of answering for you and yet hasn't done so, I'd love to hear your logic there.
I'm not sure what you mean. I assume we're just two idiots on the internet arguing about something that doesn't matter because we have too much free time.
You've never alpha tested an MMORPG before.
I have. I've never been told to go 'generate data'. Alpha is generally there to test specific things, kind of like this PTR or some PTRs in general. These other alpha I participated in were more like pre-alphas compared to this one. This is anecdotical. "Alpha" is what the dev team says it is. I try not to get hung up on semantics. Not all games are the same, and not all games are made with the same process.
As I have said before, this the the most organised alpha test for an MMORPG I have ever seen. Your complaints do not make sense if you have been involved in MMORPG alpha testing. If Intrepid say "go out and generate activity so that we can collect data" and you feel you need more direction that this, that is a you problem.
First part. No, the direction of "do the thing" isn't exhibiting organization. That's poor communication lol.
Second part. Yeah if I don't like the "do the thing" direction, it is my problem, but I'm not the only one with this sentiment. So it's a wider problem that has cascading effects.
You're very locked in on the idea alpha testing and beta testing are static processes that don't differ or change. They're not. And Intrepid is doing something very different, for better or worse. Open development with an active realm (or mostly active). Because of this I try to make very little assumptions.
Go watch the stream if you haven't or again if you have and focus in on the economy section. They talk about gather, crafting, and general economy systems and actually say they'll be working on it. They even used copper as an example lol (some of us are vindicated in our reports now!). Now once you do that, go back to where I said I just wanted a 'roadmap' or word of when stuff like this was going to get some love (really some recognition that they're aware of it would have been enough for me). Then think back on your responses of 'know it all'-ness. You were very adamant that crafting balance would and should come much later.
Itemization balance like the OP is talking about is super important - but it is something that happens very late in development. for example these are your words.
But a game mechanic "balance" could be so far off it could be called a "bug". If the feature is 'bugged' it can't be tested. Semantics aside (so you don't get hung up on them). Many 'life skill' features have been untestable because a very poor balance of materials, so poor I'd classify it as a bug, a self induced design flaw. Guess what they are working on balancing the very systems OP was reporting on.
Back to my original point. You are not an authority for Intrepid or alpha testing in general. When you do it you could be spreading bad information, as in this case, which could demotivate testers. I for one applaud the OP for testing this far and identifying the problems they did, and it'd benefit the game if Intrepid was paying attention to testers like this (which seems they are).
One of us is that, the other one of us doesn't actually have all that much free time right now, but attempts to answer questions they are capable of answering - especially when those asking questions seem to be completely unaware of the situation they are in and clearly need assistance, even if they refuse that assistance.
To you, maybe not.
However, it isn't uncommon at this stage in a games development for things like some crafting to be in the game, but the materials for crafting those items to not be. It also isn't uncommon for something like a talet tree to be implemented, but the means by which you can talets to not be implemented. Or even in one game that had gear dropping, but no means to equip it on your character.
That is what a disorganized alpha test looks like - it is basically impossible to actually generate activity in that kind of environment.
The fact that we have something that resembles a game, where people can spend dozens of hours generating activity for the developers demonstrates that this is a more organized alpha test than the above that I have been involved in. Intrepid wanting test session data and so telling testers to just go out and generate activity doesn't display a lack of organization.
If anything, it displays respect towards their testers. How much worse would you feel if Intrepid had have said to go out and test something specific, if you then later found out that they were collecting general test session data and didn't actually care about any feedback on that specific thing you may have?
If Intrepid do not want feedback on a specific thing, then they should not ask for it. If they are after basic session data, giving people something to focus on would be disrespectful.
Of course they *will be* working on it.
Not once have I said they wouldn't work on it, I said that is not where we are in testing right now. I said that we are still in collecting general data on crashes, stabilization, performance etc for the client, server and network. I also said we are nearing the end of this process - which implies that Intrepid will then focus on something else.
You applaud people beta testing in an alpha test?
That is an odd thing to do.
Any comments about how the "game" feels to play are currently premature. That won't be the case forever, but it is the case today.
Exactly my point.
These are the kinds of things testing is about right now. That is why Intrepid just want people generating activity.
The more it becomes obvious a person is lying to try and make their point, the less I engage with them.
Your assertion that you have been involved in an alpha test of an MMORPG is untrue. It is a blatant fabrication that you have made up, and are now trying to convince people of.
There has been no major MMORPG (I can't even think of any minor ones) where testing has been open to the public this early. In every other MMORPG, non inhouse testing at this point either hasn't even started, or is invitation only. In order to get invited, you need to know someone working on the game, and they need to think you are clued up enough to have valuable input.
Basically, if you had been involved in an MMORPG alpha like you claim, what we are complaining about now would be normal to you, and if it wasn't you would have at least a handful of MMORPG develoepr friends you would ask directly about this - not asking randomly on the forum for the product you are testing and then not believing the only answer you get.
So no, I will not be addressing anything you consider a point other than repeating what I have already said, because you, sir, are a blatant liar.
You've created a strawman argument against me to attack and have complete missed the whole point. Your argument contradicts the latest Dev Stream.. Once that was undeniable you revert to personal attacks, calling me a liar.
You're not helpful, you spout out of date information, and are generally a dick to everyone who has a different opinion than you.
You're a poison these forums and the less you engage the better the game will be.
If you go back through my posts, you will see that I said that they *will* work on the economy. In that video, Intrepid told us they *will* work on the economy.
They said the economy is relying on all the other systems that aren't in the test envronment, that the size of the world matters, that the economy is an iterative process.
These are all things I told you.
I'm unsure what "factual evidence" it is you think you have presented here.
The next phase will have some changes to the economy. There will be issues with it. When other things in the test change, it will also change crafting and the economy, and Intrepid will need to react to them.
You were very adamant that no one should be testing the crafting because that comes later. But they directly said they will be working on that and that they missed a few things, these things were brought to their attention via testers. Yet here you were saying people were wasting their time.
All you had to do was reference the video and say something like. Hey look here, they say there aiming to focus on these things in P3.
At this point I think you just say random stuff based off what you thing you know with little to no actual knowledge of what is happening with this development.
Keep in mind, every time they fix something in alpha, it has a really high chance to break something else.
Here is a quote from Steven in that livestream. That is literally what I have been telling you. This is an alpha. Things are broken, and the fixes break other things.
Are they going to do some work on the economy for the next phase? probably.
Does that mean things will be fixed? Nope, not at all.
No one was expecting it to be "fixed" or "playable". This is your assumption, your strawman to attack. The quote from Steven isn't even relevant to my point.
I said earlier a 'road map' or some info on when they were going to get to give some love to these life skills would be nice, why would someone want that? Maybe that's what some testers are waiting for to jump back to generate this data they're addicted to. And your answer is "much later" and you're wasting your time testing it now. It's not helpful, it's hurtful to the testing environment. You made things worse by providing bad information and devalued someone's efforts.
They provided the information in the latest stream, P3 is less than 4 sprints away and they'll be putting some focus into it, yet you said "much later", it would appear that testers voices have been heard meaning the efforts OP has put in has not been wasted as you said.
You act like it's a crime for people to ask when something will get worked on. You wouldn't know tact if it hit you in the face. You can't even see my point here.
Have you even watched the stream or you just pulling this information from your 'experienced" bunghole? You're arguing against a false premise you've created.
I pointed out, rightly, that you will not get one. You still do not have one, and you will not get one.
The reason you will not get one - again - is because developing the economy is an iterative process. I realize I didn't explain the implications of this to you, and now that we have established that you have not been involved in an alpha test before it occus to me that you may not be aware of said implications.
So, I'll explain.
An iterative development means you put together something quick that resembles what you have in mind, then you throw it in to a test environment and see how it does. You observe it, and make what ever changes you think it needs (not too many at a time), and then you test it again.
An example of iterative development, should you want to gain a better understanding, is SpaceX with their current Starship efforts. They are iterating, testing, refining and reiterating. That is Elon Musks entire philosophy around Starship Falcon and Tesla in general (thoughts on him are of no consequence to this discussion).
So, the reason you won't get a roadmap for anything that is iterative is because Intrepid only know what the next step is. They have no idea what they will see when they put that to the test, so have no idea what will need work after that.
This is why SpaceX and Tesla have failed to meet every single major deadline they have ever set - they are just best guesses, and at no point do they ever actually know how much work there is left to do.
Yes, there will be some effort put in to the economy with P3 - I never actually said they wouldn't (I didn't say there would be, but I didn't say there would not be). I said it would be "much later" that we see a functioning economy where they are looking at actual balance.
I know it can be hard to read actual words that people type without adding your pre-existing view of what you think they are saying in to the mix, but do try it.
Edit to add; one thing you did say that was absolutely correct is in regards to my lack of tact. I do indeed have a complete lack of it on display here, because it is unnecessary when talking fact. It may be the case that a little more tact would have made it easier for you to realize what I have been saying is true, but I consider that an issue on your end, not mine.
One should not consider the tact with which a fact is presented when considering the validity of said fact. Tact is for giving people bad news, presenting a fact to someone is something should generally be considered good news, as it is an opportunity for learning something new.
I said a roadmap would be nice or something to know when the life skills will get some attention or love.
I said roadmap because that's normally what I'd see, it's a product/term I'm familiar with. But the term is used very loosely in most cases.
"Roadmap" in the business sense.
A roadmap is a strategic plan that outlines a goal or desired outcome and includes the major steps or milestones needed to achieve it. It serves as a high-level overview to help teams understand their objectives and how to reach them.
You could argue the alpha phase plans are a roadmap to some degree, but in your mind it's black and white. A roadmap can only be ONE thing to you. Probably the first thing you were ever told it was... This isn't limited to the term roadmap, but any others as well, such as 'Alpha', or 'Beta', you'd probably argue over the use of the word 'test' lol. You're so locked into what you think is fact you don't even realize things can change and mean different things to different teams. You're so out of touch with actual development it's comical.
You said the issue of balancing how much it takes to make something would come later. I explained that it was so far off balance that it was basically broken and couldn't be tested. Is it so bad to ask when they'll give this attention? So bad you have to spout bad information saying it'd come in Beta, or that your wasting your time? No. It's not. That's what I'm arguing. I'm not arguing ANYTHING about the development. They'll develop how they want. And requesting more information isn't something to be attack for, which what you do. Just provide the information if you got it, which you didn't, so gave what you thought, then were proven wrong, now you create an argument to argument against. It's so sad it's funny, kind of like Sharknado, this is why I'm still here. You and to hear about the things you think you know.
To be clear, I'm arguing you're a prick you spouts bad information to people on here and are actively chasing away testers.
If what you wanted was not a roadmap, then you using the word roadmap was an incorrect word choice on your part.
I can't read your mind, I can only go by what you right down. If you write down a word, I have to assume you mean that word. If you use that word multiple times, that only reinforces that this is what you mean. If, however, you meant it in a different way, and if you believe that word is used loosely, then you should have clarified what you meant at some point.
Without you clarifying, I can only go by the words you type - as I just said.
For the record, we do not have a roadmap, or anything close. What we have is a "next step". That "next step" is that Intrepid will iterate on the economy in order to bring it more in line with what they have been saying they want from the games economy for many years now.
Once again, while I didn't offer up any timeline for when the next iteration would be, that is EXACTLY what I said would happen. I said it is an iterative process, I said they have talked about the eventual plans for years.
To be clear, I'm arguing you're a prick you spouts bad information to people on here and are actively chasing away testers.
We have no more information on the games economy after that livestream than we have before it. We know nothing new from it.
No argument for the first point there - I am more than aware I come across as that to some people. I have no problem with it, as I find that people that view me in that way tend to not value objective fact as much as I believe people should. I am unsure why you are arguing that point.
To the second, no I didn't.
The only thinf you have stated that I said that was incorrect is that the economy won't be worked on until beta - which is something I didn't say, you just imagined.
There may be a post where I didn't clarify that is what I was saying, but since in a discussion all statements (or posts) are built on previous statements (or posts), and since I clearly laid out that point at the start of all of this, that is indeed what I have been saying.
Words have meanings.
I put the actual definition there for you...Again it doesn't mean the same thing to every business or person. To you it can only mean one thing.
The only thinf you have stated that I said that was incorrect is that the economy won't be worked on until beta - which is something I didn't say, you just imagined.
You said balancing is something that would come in beta, and that economy balance like what OP spoke about would come "much later". Both are wrong on different levels.
You're just not in the know as much you'd like. You shoot from the hip thinking you're a crack shot but you miss more than you hit. A little tact and humility would go a long way for you, but I understand a lot of people have a hard time admitting they're wrong.
If you had have said at some point "by roadmap, I mean I am after *what ever it is you think you wanted*, then that would be what we would have been talking about. However, you said roadmap, and left it at that. Since a roadmap is a fairly defined thing, I had no reason to assume you did not in fact mean the thing you typed out.
Again, I am not a mind reader. If you say things that are not what you mean, and you don't clarify what it is you mean, then how can you expect people to understand you?
The economy continue to be in a state of perpetual balancing for the life of the game. We will hit something resembling a release state for the economy some time during beta - likely mid to late beta.
None of that means there will be no work done on it between now and then, it means it will not be in the state the OP is looking for before then.
Keep in mind, the OP has since realized that they are too early for what the OP itself was asking for. They crashed while in a conversation with someone, and realized that this is the kind of thing this alpha is currently dealing with, as opposed to the finer details they talk about in the OP (it is weird that the acronym "OP" can refer to both the original post, and the original poster, but there you go). These details are good to think about now (as I said earlier), and even perfectly fine to discuss.
It is the expectation that these things will be done any time soon that is in question.
Again, I am not a mind reader. If you say things that are not what you mean, and you don't clarify what it is you mean, then how can you expect people to understand you?
If you had actual experience you'd know to it had different meanings and would ask before jumping to conclusions. But you most likely lack professional experience.
None of that means there will be no work done on it between now and then, it means it will not be in the state the OP is looking for before then.
You said they were wasting their time because it'd come much later. You didn't know the devs be putting a focus on it now, but you wouldn't ever admit being wrong.
Keep in mind, the OP has since realized that they are too early for what the OP itself was asking for. They crashed while in a conversation with someone, and realized that this is the kind of thing this alpha is currently dealing with, as opposed to the finer details they talk about in the OP (it is weird that the acronym "OP" can refer to both the original post, and the original poster, but there you go). These details are good to think about now (as I said earlier), and even perfectly fine to discuss.
I've crashed on the loading screen. I've crashed opening my inventory. I've crashed for what seems to be random reasons. OP said now isn't the time to balance the economy, they said that before they mentioned the crash too. They said there's too much missing to actually "balance" the economy. Which I think we all agree with. But they're efforts powering through cooking and identifying the absurd requirements for tier 2 items isn't without value. They can work on the crafting, gathering, stability, assets, music, art, ect all the same time... it's a team of 200, this isn't an indie title lol.
But you jump in a say it's a waste of time to test what they did. And then you spout bad info that they're not even thinking about those issue. Yet the stream completely proves your previous statements dead wrong. You can't accept it, that's fine, I'm not trying to convince, I'm here for my entertainment. I can only recommend you watch the stream, make sure your up to date before claiming something is or isn't. But you won't, you don't understand humility.
@KrystalKitten, huge shoutout to you for laying out your experiences as a gatherer and crafter with such clarity. From apprentice bread woes to caravan chaos to spreadsheets on cooking—your love for the game (and for seeing it improve) is shining through. We know some of the current tuning feels rough, and yes, power-leveling and drop pacing are still under review. Testing the foundation of crafting and gathering while progression systems are still in flux is messy, but it's part of getting this right long-term.
We’ve reported folks' feedback on early game itemization, quest polish, artisan balance, and yearning for more testing direction. These are absolutely things we want to refine as we move forward. Your point about timing—especially when different systems come online—is well-taken.
To keep the conversation going:
If you could change one thing about early-game crafting that would make it feel more rewarding right now, what would it be?
I enjoy making items/gear as I level. But a lot of games really funnel you to race to max level before even bothering with crafting, this makes crafting as you level kind of pointless, so all those early level gear/items are basically wasted. I think the rush will be exasperated in Ashes because the level of competition.
Some reasons that have driven me to ignore crafting until max level.
1. too many materials exist in areas beyond your level.
2. gathering/crafting provide no exp.
3. materials are over harvested.
4. plenty of drops that actually out shine anything you craft.
Life skills (crafting, gathering, ect) are really important things in mmos to me. They provide the 'chill' time when I'm not taching out in pvp or being blinded by VFX in a dungeon. Having crafting play pivotal role in the leveling process increases its value and adds depth to the game. I think choosing your crafts is as important as choosing your class.
Everyone testing crafting and gathering now is a hero to me!