Node buff ui on large map

Would be nice to see the node buffs available from mouseover on the large map. Didn't matter as much in the beginning with only 5 nodes, but now with like 20 nodes its starting to become a pain in the butt to find the right node buffs. You can spam global but if no one responds then you have to travel the whole map for an hour or more just to see what nodes have what buffs.

Travelling is already a big time commitment, shouldnt have to do it just to find node buffs.

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Vyllz

I get where you're coming from, having buffs visible on the map would definitely be more convenient…

But honestly, I think the current system has value. Ashes is built around the idea that information has weight, and if you could just mouse over every node and see all buffs instantly, it would take away from the sense of exploration and regional knowledge.

Having to travel, scout, or even ask around in chat makes the world feel more alive, and rewards players and guilds who organize around that information. Not everything needs to be handed to us on the map. Sometimes, the effort to find the right node is part of the strategy.

Just my take! Curious what others think.

Vaknar

Appreciate both perspectives here! being that there is a tradeoff between convenience and preserving the value of regional knowledge.

Do you think having buffs visible on the map would make gameplay feel smoother, or would it diminish strategic depth?
Do you think there could be a middle ground, and if so, how so?

Looking forward to seeing more discussion here!

Xeeg

Vaknar wrote: »

Appreciate both perspectives here! being that there is a tradeoff between convenience and preserving the value of regional knowledge.
Do you think having buffs visible on the map would make gameplay feel smoother, or would it diminish strategic depth?

Do you think there could be a middle ground, and if so, how so?

Looking forward to seeing more discussion here!

With the amount of time it takes to travel, one can easily spend half their evening "discovering" what node buffs are on the map, and then not even have enough time to use that information. Or maybe they are looking for a gathering buff and cant find any, what a waste of time. Spamming global isnt a reliable method and shouldnt be the expectation. Maybe the next day the buffs have changed. Doesn't seem like a productive use of time for an evening.

Guilds and people with loaded alts all over the map already have enough advantages, they dont need more. This kind of thing helps players move around the map with purpose and knowledge, which helps lower frustration and makes the game smoother for the average player.

Azherae

Vaknar wrote: »

Appreciate both perspectives here! being that there is a tradeoff between convenience and preserving the value of regional knowledge.
Do you think having buffs visible on the map would make gameplay feel smoother, or would it diminish strategic depth?

Do you think there could be a middle ground, and if so, how so?

Looking forward to seeing more discussion here!

I think having buffs visible on the map is the alternative to people having a community website that is used to track all buffs. Having them not be visible serves no purpose in my mind, that doesn't add depth to the player type who needs it added.

I sympathize with the subsection of the playerbase for whom Node Buffs specifically are part of their exploration loop, I'm sure they must exist, but I don't really think having Node Buffs visible on the map for them would hurt too much.

A middle ground would be making it 'easier' to see what Buildings are active in the normal flow of play, but that's not really very 'middle' or particularly 'different' than now.

As for Node Buffs themselves, I dislike them, but that's from the 'strategy game player' perspective. I am hoping that the team comes up with buffs and bonuses on both Node Buildings/Social Org things and Quest Reward gear, that is more niche/less meta, but presumably we are not going to see such things in this Phase, so while I'm against Node Buffs as they are now, I'm not necessarily opposed in general.

This post doesn't speak for my group today.

Xeeg

Azherae wrote: »

I think having buffs visible on the map is the alternative to people having a community website that is used to track all buffs. Having them not be visible serves no purpose in my mind, that doesn't add depth to the player type who needs it added.

This is a great point. It is the exact same thing with the information on ashes codex. Most players dont want to "discover" all of the monsters loot tables in the game by killing every single monster in every level bracket a billion times to track their loot tables. Actually, I dont know a single player who wants to do this.

Who wants to find out what stats their craft is going to have by gathering/buying all of the different rarities and then seeing what gets crafted, for every item in the game? It takes long enough to get the mats and build your items even with this knowledge.

Every single competitively geared player uses ashes codex to plan their builds and daily activities.

I think it is far more immersive to stay inside the game for information than to use 3rd party websites/apps/discord servers to "discover" how to spend your time effectively. If having a second monitor to look at a 3rd party source is more convenient, time effective, and enjoyable than using the game UI, then Intrepid is failing its customers.

Node buffs are just another thing which will draw us out of the game again if intrepid doesnt do it better than the 3rd parties.

Ludullu

Xeeg wrote: »

I think it is far more immersive to stay inside the game for information than to use 3rd party websites/apps/discord servers to "discover" how to spend your time effectively. If having a second monitor to look at a 3rd party source is more convenient, time effective, and enjoyable than using the game UI, then Intrepid is failing its customers.

To me, the immersive part would be the spread or holding of information by people who have farmed certain mobs with certain drops. Informational wars are wars too and I like those, but in this day and age people simply can't imagine themselves participating in that, cause all they care is OPTIMIZATION OPTIMIZATION OPTIMIZATION.

In the past I suggested a reward system where people that drop loot from mobs can report that loot to a local hunting lodge and the reward would depend on how well-known that piece of loot from that mob was. So, the first person that, say, drops a super rare recipe from a well-farmed mob would get some very cool things for giving up that info. Or alternatively they could keep that info for themselves and/or their guild.

But if Intrepid don't manage to protect their client from datamining - all of that would be a complete waste of devtime, soooo.

Xeeg

Ludullu wrote: »

But if Intrepid don't manage to protect their client from datamining - all of that would be a complete waste of devtime, soooo.

Well so far they haven't. So why would anyone do any of that if you can just go onto ashes codex? And if Ashes codex didnt exist, the dataminers and their guilds would have insanely massive advantages over everyone else.

As long as the information is available to hackers, it should be available to everyone. Otherwise you are simply punishing people who follow the rules/just play the game, which doesnt make sense to me.

Ludullu

Xeeg wrote: »

Well so far they haven't. So why would anyone do any of that if you can just go onto ashes codex? And if Ashes codex didnt exist, the dataminers and their guilds would have insanely massive advantages over everyone else.

As long as the information is available to hackers, it should be available to everyone. Otherwise you are simply punishing people who follow the rules/just play the game, which doesnt make sense to me.

Yeah, it was simply one of the "promises" back in the day. No real reason to protect the current stage from that stuff, cause I'd imagine that none of the current loot tables and/or quests will live through to the release.

But if we still have concurrent datamining, say, a year into A2P3 - yeah, we're royally fucked and there's no reason to not just have the full lists of literally everything on mobs, quests, puzzles, whateverthefuck.

Which would be a really sad state of affairs tbh, but dataminers couldn't give fewer shits about this stuff...

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

Well so far they haven't. So why would anyone do any of that if you can just go onto ashes codex? And if Ashes codex didnt exist, the dataminers and their guilds would have insanely massive advantages over everyone else.

As long as the information is available to hackers, it should be available to everyone. Otherwise you are simply punishing people who follow the rules/just play the game, which doesnt make sense to me.

Yeah, it was simply one of the "promises" back in the day. No real reason to protect the current stage from that stuff, cause I'd imagine that none of the current loot tables and/or quests will live through to the release.

But if we still have concurrent datamining, say, a year into A2P3 - yeah, we're royally fucked and there's no reason to not just have the full lists of literally everything on mobs, quests, puzzles, whateverthefuck.

Which would be a really sad state of affairs tbh, but dataminers couldn't give fewer shits about this stuff...

A possibly interesting point for you is that there is a psychological workaround for this being employed already.

Those all-encompassing databases aren't the thing that most players want to use, they're a thing that they use because the game doesn't give them the limited version, because they become the path of least resistance.

TL has the mob drops listed in-game, and it also has the reverse, where the item can be checked and you can see at least some of what mobs drop it. But this doesn't seem to get optimized that hard (based on World Chat, some info I have from guilds stronger than mine, and the behaviour of my own more-casual guildmates).

Because what they want is to know how to spend their time, but not necessarily true optimization. The same thing could apply to certain implementations of Node Buffs themselves, or to the presentation of the data about those Node Buffs in game.

Also, for this target concept, it doesn't actually apply, the source wouldn't be Datamining, it would be player reporting, possibly backed by an army of Alts. So, at least for Node Buffs, the only way to withhold information in a way that would matter to that immersion type, would be to change how the Buffs work.

Xeeg

Azherae wrote: »

Those all-encompassing databases aren't the thing that most players want to use, they're a thing that they use because the game doesn't give them the limited version, because they become the path of least resistance.

Well that depends on the player. Players who are highly competitive PVPers are going to use whatever resource available to get ahead or at least be on equal grounds to the other players in the game. Personally, I am absolutely fine with using tools that have all of this information in an easily accessible way.

I just have fun moving around in the game and accomplishing my goals, these tools help me define my goals. The less time I have to spend learning "how the game works", the more I can spend on just playing the game and chilling. Especially when that time is spent travelling around the map over and over and over and over. Most of that time isnt "learning", its just travelling.

Azherae

Xeeg wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Those all-encompassing databases aren't the thing that most players want to use, they're a thing that they use because the game doesn't give them the limited version, because they become the path of least resistance.

Well that depends on the player. Players who are highly competitive PVPers are going to use whatever resource available to get ahead or at least be on equal grounds to the other players in the game. Personally, I am absolutely fine with using tools that have all of this information in an easily accessible way.

I just have fun moving around in the game and accomplishing my goals, these tools help me define my goals. The less time I have to spend learning "how the game works", the more I can spend on just playing the game and chilling. Especially when that time is spent travelling around the map over and over and over and over. Most of that time isnt "learning", its just travelling.

It remains to be seen if Ashes' design will stand up to the playstyles of its favored demographics (or if they have a plan in mind for changing that trend in demographic pairing)

So I'll ask something slightly separate.

If your ability to utilize a specific Node Buff wasn't so universal, if it was dependent on some other status you had, or the weather, or anything that could change too quickly to make general sense to move around the map just to maybe get the bonus:

1. Would this be a negative to you?
2. Would you stop traveling around as much?

Lmk if an example beyond the very basic would be helpful (basic being the type that affects mobs, like 'this Named Mob only spawns after a thunderstorm in the area).

Xeeg

Azherae wrote: »

If your ability to utilize a specific Node Buff wasn't so universal, if it was dependent on some other status you had, or the weather, or anything that could change too quickly to make general sense to move around the map just to maybe get the bonus:

1. Would this be a negative to you?
2. Would you stop traveling around as much?

That's totally fine, could be cool. What affects me moving around the map is the knowledge that what im doing is useful. I dont like running around the map just to "check" something like this, especially when it changes day by day.

Using node buffs for professions is something that you do as a plan, not as an exploration activity. I wouldnt load up my character with 400 basalt and then roam around the map, through jundark and everything "hoping" to find a node with processing. I want to know where I am going before I do something like that.

The fact that I don't know ahead of time makes me less likely to travel, because I dont want to waste hours looking for something that doesnt exist. I'd rather just farm where I am at if that is the case.

Exploration to see if anyone is camping bosses is fine, or to just go looking for gatherables... I enjoy this type of exploration, no problem.

Azherae

Then, going back to:

Xeeg wrote: »

Well that depends on the player. Players who are highly competitive PVPers are going to use whatever resource available to get ahead or at least be on equal grounds to the other players in the game. Personally, I am absolutely fine with using tools that have all of this information in an easily accessible way.

As usual, I know that this will sound weird or unrealistic to those who haven't played a lot of the live games with certain Econ designs but:

With even very slight design nudges, this mindset of even the hyper-competitive player can be shifted. Minor 'example' below regarding Farming/Gardening (not a real thing, hybrid hypothetical of FF11 and Throne and Liberty's implementations because obviously).

Assume a system like FF11's Gardening was added to a game like TL, lots of depth, too much info for ingame to work fully
Then that TL at least gave the basics in game, similar to what you can find on FF11's Gardening page or one of BDO's codices
Then that the economy related to food could shift in game, either for a player, a guild, or the whole world due to a 'world event'
Add the concept that even a highly competitive guild with some sort of 'Guild Farming Plot' that they earned through some Territory Control mechanic, still has to put a Guild Member in charge of the Farming plot (basically to parallel Freeholds)
Now go ahead and add some sort of Territory Control buff to some aspect of this Farming/Gardening.

The ordinary player faces two different psychological pressures here. The Competitive player technically faces none because they probably know better than to try to get 'ahead' due to the fact that the ordinary player will generally react one of two ways.

If the Competitive Guild needs more Tomatoes but has never grown them, the ingame info tells them the basic requirements of growing Tomatoes. They can then compare those requirements to their own situation ('do we control the right Territory for max bonus?', 'do we have enough access to Tomato Seeds for it to make sense to convert from what we grow now?', 'if not, how much are the guild who control the right Territory charging for their Tomatoes/Tomato Soup?').

If the Guild Horticulturalist wanted to grow Tomatoes, they'd have long since asked the Guild Leader to try to take the Territory that buffs Tomatoes (either directly or indirectly) or help them stockpile Tomato Seeds.

The Ordinary player sees the same situation maybe (let's assume they are at least a Farmer-Cook and keeping track of trends, or someone gullible who half-watches a viral video or hears about something in World Chat and assumes they should grow Tomatoes now). They look up in-game how to grow them, and they're done. Most ordinary players I know are happy there. They might learn a bit more, or even talk to the Guild in control of the Tomato-buffing Territory. But they're happy. They haven't lost out, and if things are dynamic, they care even less.

"Oh someone already has the best Tomato-boosting setup, but it will only last until late autumn, I'll grab the part of the market they're not currently servicing and stockpile $OtherProduct."

Idk how obvious it is, but this does work for other Professions too, in a high-dynamism game (let's use FF11 as the standard here, for now, or ArcheAge if you prefer - BDO only works for Farming) and Ashes is working toward becoming equal to or better than those.

In this scenario, the Guild Horticulturalist and the experienced Farmer-Cook still both benefit from their personal experiences (assuming any mass-consumption MMORPG game would ever be willing to put something as complex as FF11 Gardening/BDO Farming in again) which are not covered by the 'ingame basic data on how to grow Tomatoes'.

Maybe a new Guild demands that whoever wants to become their Horticulturalist watches videos and uses the equivalent of ashescodex, but the ordinary player is still happy. They see a demand for Tomatoes, they look up ingame how to grow Tomatoes, they attempt to grow Tomatoes and probably succeed. If they either 'fail to make money from this because they didn't understand the market flux' or 'get upset at the game because it didn't spell out for them exactly how to get the maximum Tomato Yield', they at least don't seem to fit the profile of people who are 'supposed' to be 'winners' in Ashes. But as long as the game offers the option of 'just keep making money selling Turnips, maybe make more money because a bunch of other Turnip Farmers tried to swap and bet on the Tomato Boom', my experience is that they don't even notice, much less 'care'.

tl;dr - If anything, the problem with Node Buffs is that they're too easy to understand/too simplistic and binary in their benefit while being hard to see. I don't think Intrepid needs to worry about the gap between Competitive and Ordinary players in this case.

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