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Make PvP Viable

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  • beretta7beretta7 Member, Alpha Two
    You simply cannot make pvp extremely accessible in the open world in a combat system that is mostly based on gear and level vs skill. If a new player could at least hold his own and have a chance if he is simply trying to gather then the risk reward makes sense. A level 25 sweaty player running around areas and ganking for free resources is what would happen if we make pvp less painful. They sealed this with their tab target gear based level based system. Sorry.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    beretta7 wrote: »
    You simply cannot make pvp extremely accessible in the open world in a combat system that is mostly based on gear and level vs skill. If a new player could at least hold his own and have a chance if he is simply trying to gather then the risk reward makes sense. A level 25 sweaty player running around areas and ganking for free resources is what would happen if we make pvp less painful. They sealed this with their tab target gear based level based system. Sorry.
    And none of that is the case with the corruption system. Higher lvl PKers get crazy amounts of corruption, so they'll be hunted to the ends of the world. Multiple PKs in a row also mean higher lvls of Blight, which means more corruption per kill, so it's the same situation as with the lowbies.

    The only reason we have high lvl players killing lowbies is the broken mob leashing and aggro design.
  • davenbdavenb Member, Alpha Two
    You thought wrong, the problem is that you cant contest mainly named mobs because going corrupt is not viable and never will be as long you risk losing your gear. The only way to contest is to dps race which is very bad design even world bosses where you have mechanics like killing flamelings for firebrand when he goes in the air phase and turmok when he puts down his mushroom and you have to kill those in order to not power/heal up but if you do you lose dmg uptime where other parties/raids can and will hit the boss in order to claim the loot via damage race
  • beretta7beretta7 Member, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    beretta7 wrote: »
    You simply cannot make pvp extremely accessible in the open world in a combat system that is mostly based on gear and level vs skill. If a new player could at least hold his own and have a chance if he is simply trying to gather then the risk reward makes sense. A level 25 sweaty player running around areas and ganking for free resources is what would happen if we make pvp less painful. They sealed this with their tab target gear based level based system. Sorry.
    And none of that is the case with the corruption system. Higher lvl PKers get crazy amounts of corruption, so they'll be hunted to the ends of the world. Multiple PKs in a row also mean higher lvls of Blight, which means more corruption per kill, so it's the same situation as with the lowbies.

    The only reason we have high lvl players killing lowbies is the broken mob leashing and aggro design.

    I agree with you in the current system but Im pretty sure the author was saying they wanted it less punishing for pvp which really cant happen unless they change their combat system totally. They could make small tweaks but it has to be pretty damn brutal to pvp with this current system otherwise the game would really never succeed imo. They could always have a bounty system and a totally consensual pvp system with areas that were totally open. Other games with low skill combat systems have done that and it was worked. I think a bounty system is a must in an open world. Bounty systems are almost always a lot of fun.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    davenb wrote: »
    You thought wrong, the problem is that you cant contest mainly named mobs because going corrupt is not viable and never will be as long you risk losing your gear. The only way to contest is to dps race which is very bad design even world bosses where you have mechanics like killing flamelings for firebrand when he goes in the air phase and turmok when he puts down his mushroom and you have to kill those in order to not power/heal up but if you do you lose dmg uptime where other parties/raids can and will hit the boss in order to claim the loot via damage race

    So, you are conflating a few things here.

    You are saying the DPS race is bad design, and then are citing encounter design specifics as your reasoning.

    I totally agree that the concept of a DPS race doesn't work well in conjunction with encounter design that requires something other than max DPS, if that mechanic other than DPS isnt applied to every grouo present equally. That doesn't mean a DPS race is bad design though.
  • davenbdavenb Member, Alpha Two
    Its one of the reason and yes it is a bad design
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Appreciate everyone weighing in on this thread. This kind of back-and-forth helps us iterate on systems.

    The player corruption system is meant to add weight to PvP decisions, but if it's getting in the way of emergent gameplay systems, it might feel less strategic and more limiting. The player corruption system is something that will take reiteration, balance passes, and keen eyes to balance in a satisfying way. This is something we'll be doing throughout testing, and we appreciate your feedback <3
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Appreciate everyone weighing in on this thread. This kind of back-and-forth helps us iterate on systems.

    The player corruption system is meant to add weight to PvP decisions, but if it's getting in the way of emergent gameplay systems, it might feel less strategic and more limiting. The player corruption system is something that will take reiteration, balance passes, and keen eyes to balance in a satisfying way. This is something we'll be doing throughout testing, and we appreciate your feedback <3

    To be honest, this is *why* I get in to discussions/debates with people here. While it annoys some posters, it is something I know to occasionally be very useful.

    In the case of this discussion, it is as you say - the corruption system isn't fully in place. Yet we also arrived at the very useful point for you to pass on to appropriate developers that having a paradigm where best DPS wins the loot on open world bosses , this needs to be taken in to account with encounter design of any encounter subject to this.

    I'm all about raids, with intricate, well curated encounter design. That really is what I play MMORPG's for. However, when the loot goes to the group with the highest DPS on the encounter, you just shouldn't have those mechanics in with those encounters.
  • GardosienGardosien Member, Alpha Two
    " risk of losing your gear is not viable " If you lost the gear it would be, problem is 3 out the 4 times I have had someone go corp. on me. A teammate just kills them clears the corp, and gives them gear back if they lost any. The gear should go "POOF!" that way the system can not be exploited in this way
  • AndiAndi Member, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Appreciate everyone weighing in on this thread. This kind of back-and-forth helps us iterate on systems.

    The player corruption system is meant to add weight to PvP decisions, but if it's getting in the way of emergent gameplay systems, it might feel less strategic and more limiting. The player corruption system is something that will take reiteration, balance passes, and keen eyes to balance in a satisfying way. This is something we'll be doing throughout testing, and we appreciate your feedback <3

    Make your game a gangbox, and player count will drop.
    And MMORPGs aren't No Man's Sky - no matter how much you patch them and how hard you'll try, lost players won't return.
  • AreannAreann Member, Alpha Two
    There's already so many aspects of the game that revolve around pvp. Wars, caravans, lawless ... I see no reason to force it into the pve elements.
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  • BirqaBirqa Member, Alpha Two
    interesting discussion here.

    i see a few issues with the corruption design as well as the current implementation.
    steven said in yesterdays livestream again that corruption is overtuned and SHOULD GIVE THEM THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE ENGAGING WITH IT FOR A PROPER LIVE COMPARISON.

    maybe i missunderstand what he was saying there, but if the intend is to have such a big detour that no one ever wants to possibly risk getting corrupt i dont think the system even needs to be in the game then. going corrupt is and should be a high risk, but also offer a big reward when used at the appropiate moments.
    example would be a relic crate on some players bag. that should be possible without you loosing your gear.
    at the same note that now corrupted player cant even bring the relic to their node since they would be killed by the guards and other players. so there seem to be some things missing to make the intended gameplay possible.

    as for general issues with the corruption design. as i understand it, it seems to be intended, that corrupted players are not allowed to defend themselves from being attacked without occuring more corruption. imo thats a really bad design.
    lets say i was killing that player with the relic. i picked it up went to a grindspot to work off my corruption, since i cant go to the node with corruption. while im trying to "better" myself while slaying harmless npcs ;) i get attacked by some green player/white nameplate. now the typical reaction is to either flee or fight. basic human instincts. since im slowed by the relic i dont have the option to flee so i fight. doing so and neither dying to the npcs im fighting nor the player trying to kill me, killing said players grant me more corruption. therefore i spend more time in the grindspot trying to "better" myself even more. in thus more time spend being corrup gives that green player, and others, more chance to get back and kill me. i dont have any chance to get out of that cycle unless i die which is losing the reward i got by taking the risk of going corrupt.

    Tldr: as a corrupted player i should be allowed to defend myself. if i attack someone first thats my fault.

    imo going corrupt should be something you dont want to but also something that can be necessary in order to make your home the most powerful one as example.
    with how steven talked about it i dont think that we are allowed to use corruption to defend our grindspot. not enough reward vs. the risk/inevitable

    apparently i needed so much words to make my point :#
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Birqa wrote: »
    apparently i needed so much words to make my point :#
    Don't woooorry, all those relics will just spawn in the lawless zones, so corruption won't matter for shit. I got no damn clue why Steven is even keeping it in the game at this point. He loves his lawless genocidal circles so much, so might as well just fill the world with them and let the griefers and the zerg have their own fun, while the game quickly dies.

    Steven is not interested in making corruption a system that has even a shred of fairness, but he's more than ok to create a whole different system that accomplishes the same damn thing (except with higher rewards and even lower risk) - but with the absence of fairness for the victims of murder.

    Fun times all around :)
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