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Risk, Reward, Difficulty & FUN: What Intrepid is Missing

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Comments

  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Ah, I understand better now, then, you're moreso in the 'Single-Player MMO' camp.
    Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning is the best Single-Player MMORPG ever!
    Its only flaw is that it's not multiplayer.
    :D

    wait, are you serious? i was just checking it out. thinking about buying it. saw it for $10 and the game + dlc for $13.

    i cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not. game looked fun to me since you can build your character in any way you want plus the combat seems cool.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Ha!
    The devs will tell you that Ashes is designed to be anti-Zerg.

    IMAGINE creating a Game with an intentional Engine to put MASSIVE back in MMO -> and then design the Game Mechanic in a way, that a bunch of several Hundred Sweatlords can hold a Node forever -> no matter how many THOUSANDS of "Enemy" Players are against them. :D
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    This one makes me think of something. I think that maybe there's a sort-of equivalent of this feeling for Econ-focused players, it's just so long/complex that I never want to try explaining it, but honestly this is probably the thread for a short-form.

    "Not being able to even guess why someone/a small group is in an area."

    I think that line doesn't make sense on its own, but in this case, if the only reason a player has, to be in an area, is to look for someone else (not someone specific, just 'another person') to kill for the sake of killing them, I don't think one can call it 'meaningful conflict'.

    The next step normally is 'well maybe they are defending the territory and have a good reason to keep everyone out'. Ok, sure, that implies a reason why they do that, though. I don't have a problem with being fought or hunted while walking through a Py'Rai forest if I think they're protecting their trees or something.

    I think this is actually somewhat a designer's responsibility. If your MMORPG is supposed to attract a bunch of players who just want to fight other players on the road, it's your job as a Dev to put a reason behind that in the world a decent portion of the time.

    Most games I've played 'ignore' this or make it a loose enough connection, resulting in a higher population of players who are not there to play an MMORPG, they're there to play a combat sim where they can snowball or ego-check people who did, and the only win-condition for those is 'when the other player acknowledges defeat/the hierarchy'.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Hmmn. So this kinda reminds of EQNext's concept of PvP Conflict - we have a whole bunch of former SOE devs on the Intrepid team, several of whom worked on the EQ franchise, so I'm expecting something like this will fall under what the Ashes devs have referred to as Meaningful Conflict.

    The EQNext scenario the devs shared with us is:
    Kithicor Forest is filled with Dryads who have Life Energy which can be siphoned as a resource. The Dark Elves kill the Dryads to siphon the Life Energy and convert it to Shadow Energy, which powers Shadow Magic and Stealth.
    I typically have my characters max Stealth and I am usually a carebear, but... if I have to kill Dryads to siphon their Life Energy to power the Stealth abilities for my Rogue... any player character Druids who try to stop me from killing Dryads will just have to die!!
    Draining Life Energy from Kithicor Forest will, over time, negatively impact all life in Kithicor Forest, so there is incentive for players to prevent the Dryads from being killed. Unbeknownst to the players, a tipping point of Life Energy depletion will allow Shadow Demons to break their shackles, roam across zones and destroy all life in their wake...Dark Elves included. Which will push the Dark Elves to ally with their former rivals to re-imprison the Shadow Demons.

    I don't think a relic, as described, would entice me to participate in PvP combat.
    I'm not going to try to kill a player character because of something they hold in their possession.
    In the EQNext scenario, I'm truly focused on the PvE. And it's not really anything material I'm seeking - what I'm seeking is to improve my non-combat skills. If other players are gonna try to impede that, it could provoke me to initiate PvP, even though I would consider that a last resort option.
    My quote, above, is from 2021. In the midst of Alpha One and before Jeffrey Bard left as Lead Game Designer.

    Kinda the flip side of that scenario is playing a Druid who knows that depleting too much Life Energy from Kithicor Forest will trigger the Shadow Demons to escape and wreak havoc around the region. As a Druid, I would try to parlay with players who are killing too many Dryads. I might have to initiate PvP if they continue to slaughter Dryads - but the motivation isn't because I love PvP or I want to steal loot from other players. Rather it is a last resort to protect the region from rampaging Shadow Demons.
    Again... Meaningful Conflict rather than Risk v Reward.

    I have abysmally low interest in Risk v Reward.
    But, Meaningful Conflict is highly enticing, to me.

    Ya I'm a min from walking away from Ashes as well. I have been testing Soulframe, I'm enjoying the PvE and the combat. There plans for PvP is enough to give me my PvP fix when I need it. Ashes Bard is the second best class I have played in my 25+ years of MMOing. Still needed love but the core play style was fun and rewarding. The more and more they move away from causel progression. Sad part is the game does not need to be casuel but just needs to make it possible to progress.

    The last straw for me is ignoring feedback on gear scaling. Steven does not get that a PvP game needs to be skilled based. I'm tired of asking and seeing so many exit from failing to see that happen.

    I would look again at Ashes if the gear boost was no more then 20%. I know now Steven does not care about PvP balance. He case more about gear looking "LEGANDARY". This game wlis walking down the same path every PvP has. Toxic PvPer will rule. People will be sick of not being able to defend themselves. Casuals and pure crafters will leave first. The game will go down hill from there. Toxic players will get board when their pray leaves and servers will become ghost towns. I have been MMOing PvP since DAoC launch. No PvP MMO has gotten it right since then. ESO was close. Would still be playing ESO if PvP players got some love.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
  • ordotemplariiordotemplarii Member, Alpha Two
    @ordotemplarii

    the combat systems synergy to proc stronger abilities based on status effects definitely aids in rotational spam for zerging

    Unfortunately, range will almost always have an advantage in larger scaled combat scenarios than the front liners because of game design advantages. Just inevitable unfortunately.

    Distance/positioning, aoe, proc synergy, and support roles backing them up compared to the front liners and scrimmagers

    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Pretty much. The pvpers that are attracted by these kinds of games do everything in the game, simply cause it benefits them. If only pvers could do the same.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 6
    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.
    You get to lvl10 by doing a quest chain and killing a few mobs here and there. Then you can easily get to ~lvl15 completely solo. After that it'll really slow down, but is still more than doable. And that's me talking as a tank, who has the supposedly worst dps in the game, so any other archetype can level even faster solo.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    @ordotemplarii

    the combat systems synergy to proc stronger abilities based on status effects definitely aids in rotational spam for zerging

    Unfortunately, range will almost always have an advantage in larger scaled combat scenarios than the front liners because of game design advantages. Just inevitable unfortunately.

    Distance/positioning, aoe, proc synergy, and support roles backing them up compared to the front liners and scrimmagers

    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.

    1- what do you consider leveling up as a zerg?
    2- who says you cant get past level 10 without a zerg? im assuming zerg here you mean a raid or bigger.

    exp in raids got nerfed. it was viable in alpha 1 lol. you can still items as a raid though. nothing wrong with that.

    1-10 is faster soloing than partying, unless you go to a couple of special spots (assuming no one is there).
    10-14/15 only takes a few hours soloing. it's probably faster than partying, and you make more money too. I'm never partying again from 1 to 14 xDDD. you can still solo after that but it's faster as a party, and partying isnt zerguing.

    why people dont want to party is beyond me.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Pretty much. The pvpers that are attracted by these kinds of games do everything in the game, simply cause it benefits them. If only pvers could do the same.

    To be fair that is because most PvP games just dumb down the crafting/sourcing aspects to the point where nearly everyone can do them.

    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    To be fair that is because most PvP games just dumb down the crafting/sourcing aspects to the point where nearly everyone can do them.

    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    While I definitely see your point and agree with both of its parts, I somewhat disagree with its application to even the promised Ashes crafting.

    With full trade and proper markets, all any singular players needs to do to craft is to go buy some stuff. All any single players in the crafting chain needs to do is to go do their singular (maaaybe 2-3) profession. At its core both of those things are kinda dumbed down, cause they do not require much thought.

    Will the overall process be less smooth than if the server was full of pro artisans? Sure. But it'll still work well enough for people to progress. Or, at least, I assume it would, cause even though the base lvl of material acquisition in L2 was just "farm mobs on a specific class", I don't really see that as too much different from "just cut trees as a specific artisan profession" or "process rocks as a specific artisan profession".
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    To be fair that is because most PvP games just dumb down the crafting/sourcing aspects to the point where nearly everyone can do them.

    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    While I definitely see your point and agree with both of its parts, I somewhat disagree with its application to even the promised Ashes crafting.

    With full trade and proper markets, all any singular players needs to do to craft is to go buy some stuff. All any single players in the crafting chain needs to do is to go do their singular (maaaybe 2-3) profession. At its core both of those things are kinda dumbed down, cause they do not require much thought.

    Will the overall process be less smooth than if the server was full of pro artisans? Sure. But it'll still work well enough for people to progress. Or, at least, I assume it would, cause even though the base lvl of material acquisition in L2 was just "farm mobs on a specific class", I don't really see that as too much different from "just cut trees as a specific artisan profession" or "process rocks as a specific artisan profession".

    Oh no, I meant that the reason PvP players stay in games like Ashes and 'just craft' is because crafting is not complex.

    I own items in FF11 that were so relatively hard to make that I needed to get 3 people with the required experience together, decide who was going to be in charge of what functions of the Synergy Furnace, and still spend half an hour with maybe 7 fails (tbf half of those were just bad luck) before we synchronized enough to eventually make the gear.

    I'm not saying everything needs to be that level, I'm just noting that we can't really draw a parallel, because Synergy is stilleasier than proper PvP.

    Some PvE players can't do the same because they wouldn't be good enough to PvP or craft. It's just that some PvP players are 'only good enough to get carried in PvP so they would also fail at difficult crafting'. Knowing that, the games make crafting simple, because those are the people PvP games need to keep attracting.
    You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
  • @ordotemplarii

    the combat systems synergy to proc stronger abilities based on status effects definitely aids in rotational spam for zerging

    Unfortunately, range will almost always have an advantage in larger scaled combat scenarios than the front liners because of game design advantages. Just inevitable unfortunately.

    Distance/positioning, aoe, proc synergy, and support roles backing them up compared to the front liners and scrimmagers

    I don't know enough about the combat to say zergy or not zergy, but what I do know is that when you can't even get passed lvl 10 without zerging down mobs, its not looking good.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Shatter


    Effect description
    When you deal lightning damage to a recently Frozen target, they are dealt a bonus (225%🢆) Ice damage. Shattered can only be triggered once every 4 seconds per caster against the same target.

    Any viable player/class can apply the previous effects for the ability to proc synergistically.

    Different abilities synergistically flow from various classes and specialisations

    Making sure targets are maintained with debuffs makes synergistic opportunities more abundant regardless of cool down timers.

    look at conflagrating
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Conflagrating

    Effect description
    Convert all remaining Burning damage on the target into a quick DoT lasting 6s. Total burn amount is also boosted by 30%.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    if the crafters leave, the pvpers will craft xDDDDDDD
    Pretty much. The pvpers that are attracted by these kinds of games do everything in the game, simply cause it benefits them. If only pvers could do the same.

    PvP'ers generally draw the line at top end raiding (which is why PvP games no longer have top end raids).

    PvE'ers generally draw the line at PvP.

    Both will happily branch out to things like crafting, if there is a need.

    This all seems fairly equal to me - when you donsider that the group of players that consider themselves PvP only is vanishingly small, and the group of players that consider themselves PvE only is also vanishingly small.
  • @ordotemplarii it doesn't matter what intrepid does as large scale combat scenario's always results in chaotic combat and battlefields. Zerging is a strategy, it's literally how medieval wars were fought (especially ambush zergs such cavalry men or archers flanking)

    To the say the game is anti-zerg while devoutly supporting massive player count combat is absurd to me.
    You're just going to have a bunch of raid groups zerging around regardless of within or outside of scenario's. The flagging system only deter's massive zerging outside the scenario's otherwise players defending a castle siege war or node siege would be team killing with corruption.

    Dont get me wrong though, large scale combat in video games is still a lot of run regardless of chaos
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    I mean - even in D&D, I don't like the idea of having to kill a bunch of stuff to Level. I prefer to avoid killing stuff as much as possible. And I hated when we basically had to convert Treasure into XP in order to Level.
    It's not very heroic to have to steal treasure and kill everything in sight.
    I don't even like for NPCs and mobs.

    I especially don't want to be killing other players. And I don't want to be stealing stuff from other players, either.
    The Stealth and Garrote animations were so over-the-top and visceral in KOA: Reckoning that I loved Pickpocketing and slitting the throats of mobs and NPCs in that game, but... I think I still would not want to do that to players.

    No reason to "dumb-down" PvP.
    For me, the devs would have to find a way to provide a more meaningful motivation besides killing players for Loot. Sieges are intriguing, but even then I prefer to focus on indirect PvE objectives rather than direct combat.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    AI Insight > Here’s a structured look at the current MMORPG landscape (as of mid‑2025), followed by tailored strategies for Ashes of Creation to harmonize casual and hardcore playstyles and cultivate a thriving, long-term community:

    1. Overview of Current MMORPGs (mid‑2025)
    Popular & Established Titles
    Final Fantasy XIV – At the top of many “best MMORPG” lists, praised for its deep storytelling, frequent free content updates (around every three months), and an exceptionally welcoming player community
    GamesRadar+
    +13
    TechRadar
    +13
    ashesofcreation.wiki
    +13
    .

    World of Warcraft – Continues its legacy as a genre-defining MMORPG, balancing accessibility for new players with evolving endgame content
    GamesRadar+
    .

    The Elder Scrolls Online – Known for massive exploration, immersive world-building, and flexibility in combat and character builds
    Massively Overpowered
    +3
    TechRadar
    +3
    GamesRadar+
    +3
    .

    EVE Online – A complex sandbox with player-driven politics, economy, and memorable large-scale conflicts
    GamesRadar+
    +1
    .

    Old School RuneScape – Nostalgic, community-voted content keeps it relevant, drawing both returning players and newcomers
    GamesRadar+
    +14
    GamesRadar+
    +14
    TechRadar
    +14
    .

    Guild Wars 2 – Acclaimed for dynamic events, responsive storytelling, and increasingly frequent expansion cycles
    TechRadar
    Wikipedia
    .

    Star Wars: The Old Republic – Classic BioWare-style narratives remain a strong draw, delivering cinematic storytelling
    GamesRadar+
    +7
    TechRadar
    +7
    GamesRadar+
    +7
    .

    Other Notables
    Lost Ark – Noted for punchy action combat and continual content updates
    TechRadar
    .

    Fallout 76, Black Desert Online, Runescape, ESO, SWTOR – Each offers unique appeal, from crafting depth to open-world exploration
    Reddit
    +6
    TechRadar
    +6
    Ashes of Creation
    +6
    .

    Throne and Liberty – Launched late 2024, it made a big early impact with free-to-play accessibility and both PvP and PvE features, though server consolidations followed due to uneven population levels
    Wikipedia
    +1
    .

    Upcoming MMORPGs in 2025
    Titles generating buzz include Dune: Awakening, Chrono Odyssey, Aion 2, Pax Dei, Camelot Unchained, Ship of Heroes, and Brighter Shores
    GamesRadar+
    +4
    MMORPG.com
    +4
    Reddit
    +4
    .

    2. Addressing Casual vs. Hardcore Play in Ashes of Creation
    What the game has so far:

    Ashes of Creation is recognized for offering “endless content for casuals” — freeholds, tavern games, PvP arenas, events, community content, gathering, and flexible movement across regions
    Reddit
    +1
    .

    The developers also view the game as primarily catering to hardcore PvP-oriented audiences, akin to players of EVE Online, ArcheAge, Lineage II — which could alienate more casual gamers
    Ashes of Creation
    .

    Although mechanics differentiate playstyles (hardcore can progress faster), casual players may struggle to influence competitive systems like node control
    ashesofcreation.wiki
    .

    Key Tensions:

    Hardcore players drive progression and control systems.

    Casual players enjoy community, social, and low-commitment activities.

    Without balance, influence remains skewed toward hardcore factions.

    3. Recommendations to Bridge the Gap & Foster Longevity
    A) Adaptive Progression & Influence
    Scaled Node Influence: Allow casual contributions (time spent, community tasks) to earn influence—even in smaller increments—so casuals feel impactful.

    Mentorship Pathways: Encourage hardcore players to mentor newcomers—perhaps via story-based incentives or mutual rewards.

    B) Diverse Activity Tiers
    Tiered Events: Offer both low-commitment daily quests, social events, and relaxed gathering, alongside high-stakes PvP/raids. This mirrors what makes FFXIV enjoyable: variability and accessibility
    YouTube
    .

    Solo-Friendly Content: Ensure certain encounters, quests, and node interactions are designed with solo or small-group play in mind.

    C) Community Empowerment Tools
    Player-Driven Events: Enable groups to organize activities—fairs, tournaments, festivals—complete with tools for announcements, rewards, and moderation.

    Housing & Social Spaces: Expand on freeholds with player-run taverns, guild halls, or markets. These spaces build social bonds and casual comfort.

    D) Recognition & Reward Systems
    Dual Recognition Tracks: Separate (and reward) contributions through combat or governance vs. social engagement and consistency.

    Badges & Titles: Offer visible, cumulative markers for both hardcore achievements and community/supportive roles.

    E) Dynamic Content Adaptability
    Scaling Mechanics: Implement content that scales difficulty dynamically (like in Guild Wars 2’s strike missions), making previously inaccessible content accessible to groups of differing sizes.

    Event Accessibility: Run flexible drop-in events where casuals can participate at any stage—fitting storytelling, PvE, or PvP depth as needed.

    4. Building a Sustainable, Long-Term Community
    Consistent, phased updates: Emulate models like GW2 and FFXIV, with frequent post-launch updates and expansions that keep content fresh and balanced


    Feedback Loops: Actively engage with both casual and hardcore players via forums, polls, dev Q&A—adjusting game systems responsively.

    Cross-Play and Cross-Platform: If feasible, expanding platforms and enabling accessibility helps grow player base and diversity.

    Social Programs & Onboarding: Offer guided new-player orientation, community ambassadors, and welcome packages to ensure newcomers stick around.

    Summary Table
    Area Casual-Centric Initiatives Hardcore Supporting Enhancements
    Influence Scaled, time-based impact High-stakes governance systems
    Content Solo quests, social events, low-commitment tasks Challenging raids, node wars, PvP arenas
    Social Player-owned housing, community hubs Strategy-driven guild leadership tools
    Recognition Community helper titles, casual badges Achievement-based prestige and rewards
    Content Delivery Frequent, varied updates Deep, competitive expansions and patches

    ** Bottom Line:** Ashes of Creation has the potential to unite casual and hardcore audiences through flexible progression systems, diverse content, and an ecosystem that rewards contribution in many forms.

    Real community bonds and longevity grow when every player—regardless of playstyle—feels seen, valued, and empowered to participate in the world’s unfolding narrative.
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    akabear wrote: »
    ....** Bottom Line:** Ashes of Creation has the potential to unite casual and hardcore audiences through flexible progression systems, diverse content, and an ecosystem that rewards contribution in many forms.....

    This will be key in obtaining and retaining monthly subs since most people will not let a monthly sub. languish unused if it does not satisfy its purpose (whatever that is to each individuals preference).
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I don't think we want PvP dumbed down to the level that they tend to dumb down crafting 'so that the PvErs can do everything in the game too'. That hasn't worked out well for any of my preferred games so far...
    I mean - even in D&D, I don't like the idea of having to kill a bunch of stuff to Level. I prefer to avoid killing stuff as much as possible. And I hated when we basically had to convert Treasure into XP in order to Level.
    It's not very heroic to have to steal treasure and kill everything in sight.
    I don't even like for NPCs and mobs.

    I especially don't want to be killing other players. And I don't want to be stealing stuff from other players, either.
    The Stealth and Garrote animations were so over-the-top and visceral in KOA: Reckoning that I loved Pickpocketing and slitting the throats of mobs and NPCs in that game, but... I think I still would not want to do that to players.

    No reason to "dumb-down" PvP.
    For me, the devs would have to find a way to provide a more meaningful motivation besides killing players for Loot. Sieges are intriguing, but even then I prefer to focus on indirect PvE objectives rather than direct combat.

    This isn't quite what I meant.

    I'll demonstrate by giving the 'crafting formula' for my Legend of Mana main weapon 'White Joker'. Understanding it is not required:

    IshePlatinum Knife

    Base stats: POW 37, Elements none

    1 - Spiny Carrot
    2 - ShadeSilver 1S, 1U - 42 POW
    3 - Mercury 2S, 1U Shade 44 POW
    4 - UndineSilver 3S, 2U Witch, Shade
    5 - Mercury 3S, 3U Undine, Witch, Shade
    6 - Mercury 3S, 4U Witch, Undine, Witch
    7 - Acid 3S, 5U Witch, Undine, Witch
    8 - ShadeGold 4S, 5U Witch, Witch, Undine
    9 - Mercury 5S, 5U Shade, Witch, Witch
    10- Glow Crystal 6S, 5U Witch, Shade, Witch
    11- UndineSilver 6S, 5U Nymph, Witch, Shade
    12- Mercury 6S, 6U Undine, ---, Witch
    13- Glow Crystal 6S, 6U Witch, Undine, Witch
    14- Mercury 6S, 6U Nymph, Witch, Undine
    15- ShadeSilver 6S, 6U Witch, Nymph, Witch
    16- Sulphur 7S, 6U Shade, Witch, --- (changed from #5 onward)
    17- Cornflower 7S, 6U, 1W Shade, Witch, ---
    18- Cornflower 7S, 6U, 2W, Shade, Witch, ---
    19- WispSilver 7S, 6U, 3W, Sorcerer, Shade, Witch
    20- Sulphur 7S, 6U, 4W, Wisp, Sorcerer, Shade
    21- FireStone 7S, 6U, 4W, Sorcerer, Wisp, Sorcerer
    22- Acid 7S, 6U, 5W, Sorcerer, Wisp, Sorcerer
    23- Chaos Crystal 7S, 6U, 5W, Salamander, Sorcerer, Wisp
    24- Sulphur 7S6U, 5W1F, Ancient Moon, Salamander, Sorcerer
    25- Acid 7S6U, 5W2F, Ancient Moon, Salamander, Sorcerer
    26- Acid 7S6U, 5W3F, Ancient Moon, Salamander, Sorcerer
    27- Acid 7S6U, 5W4F, Ancient Moon, Salamander, Sorcerer
    28- FireStone 7S6U, 5W4F, Sorcerer, Ancient Moon, Salamander
    29- Mercury 7S6U, 5W4F, Salamander, Sorcerer, Ancient Moon
    30- Glow Crystal 7S6U, 5W5F, Witch, Salamander, Sorcerer
    31- Mercury 7S6U, 5W5F, Nymph, Witch, Salamander
    32- Undine Gold 7S7U, 5W4F, Witch, Nymph, Witch
    33- Wisp Gold 7S7U, 5W3F, Undine, Witch, Nymph
    34- Sulphur 7S7U, 6W2F, Wisp, Undine, Witch
    35- Glow Crystal 7S7U, 6W1F, Sorcerer, Wisp, Undine
    36- Sulphur 7S7U, 6W1F, Nymph, Sorcerer, Wisp
    37- Wisp Silver 7S7U, 6W1F, Sorcerer, Nymph, Sorcerer
    38- Ender (note that Rocket Papaya don't Dawnbreak so you can add Tower and then one more Glow Crystal

    This is one of the methods to get the outcome I want on this dagger.

    It only works on this material.

    If I make the dagger out of a different material I need a different formula to get a similar outcome. If I wanted a dagger with slightly different elemental damage I need a different material and a different formula.

    If I wanted a sword of the same material I have to come up with a new formula from scratch because the skill empowerment for swords has to happen at stage 28 (I think, but maybe I'd come up with a way to do it earlier).

    Combat can be like the above in terms of sequences/synergies, etc. Some games, it is. Compare that to normal game crafting:

    "Gather 4-8 things and shove them together". If PvP was 'get your build and then hit a button to see if you win', more people would be good at it.
    You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Right, but...
    I'm saying that it's not really a matter of whether you're skilled at PvP...
    It's really a matter of whether it's the type of activity you want to do or like to do.
    Kinda like eating fish eyes - I don't care how good it might taste - I really don't even like the taste. I also don't like raw tomatoes, but on a sub sandwich it's OK if they're covered up enough by a bunch of other stuff.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Right, but...
    I'm saying that it's not really a matter of whether you're skilled at PvP...
    It's really a matter of whether it's the type of activity you want to do or like to do.
    Kinda like eating fish eyes - I don't care how good it might taste - I really don't even like the taste. I also don't like raw tomatoes, but on a sub sandwich it's OK if they're covered up enough by a bunch of other stuff.

    Among people I know and know of you are an absolute minority.

    I'm not discounting what you're saying, I'm just clarifying that I was talking about a different demographic.

    "People who don't PvP because PvP is difficult" and/or "People who do PvP, but would not do crafting in a game where being able to make White Joker was the base requirement for crafting."
    You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
  • EndowedEndowed Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    People still make heavily watched videos of 20 year old various mmos... based mostly on lore and dungeon content.
    Plenty are made about the world/locations.
    Some about guild/server drama.
    Some about raids.
    Some about epic gears and their acquisition.
    Much less so for pvp. (World pvp getting almost all of it, not BGs, and not zerg stomps).
    And nearly none for crafting.

    *Players do make very popular CURRENT gameplay videos about PvP of all different types. Especially in the shorter length formats.

    Just an observation.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Endowed wrote: »
    Just an observation.
    I think this is more of an observation about the player type rather than the content one. Obviously, players who are more interested in stories and lore would be able (and interested in) telling their own stories about experiences related to the games they've played.

    PvPers just fight. You can always make stories of revenge, fighting against bigger odds, backstabbings, betrayals, heel-turns, etc etc etc - but none of that is really interesting to majority of pvpers. They just want to kill some dudes and the videos represent that, only having those kills shown off. And, of course, while the first few kill videos might be interesting as a way to see the pvp in a game - everything after that is just repetitive.

    Also, when it comes to having those videos on YT, there's the music copyright factor as well. Back in the day, when pvp videos had a shitton of views, people would just use hype music to keep people more engaged and to keep video more interesting. Nowadays you gotta either find some random basic royalty free tune or have your video completely killed in the algorithm, if you use some nice trendy track. I'd imagine this is also why the short form is more visible here, because you either don't need to use music, cause it's a short clip, or you're on tiktok that doesn't give a fuck about rights (at least didn't in the past, dunno about now cause I don't use it).

    And on the viewer side of things, I'd imagine that the ones interested in pvp would be more interested in just participating in it themselves, rather than watching a video about it. While people interested in stories are more than willing to watch a video about said stories, or even just about someone else's outlook on the story they've already experienced.

    Like, just an hour ago I watched a video of a dude playing Warcraft 3 for the first time and loving it. I played the game myself back when it came out and I've watched videos about it before, but this was a new pov on the theme, so the video was interesting. I could watch countless pvp videos from L2, but over the years I've pretty much seen any potential matchup, tactic and approach to the game, so there's not as much interest for me there (even though I'm endlessly more interested in L2 than WC3).
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @ordotemplarii it doesn't matter what intrepid does as large scale combat scenario's always results in chaotic combat and battlefields. Zerging is a strategy, it's literally how medieval wars were fought (especially ambush zergs such cavalry men or archers flanking)

    To the say the game is anti-zerg while devoutly supporting massive player count combat is absurd to me.
    You're just going to have a bunch of raid groups zerging around regardless of within or outside of scenario's. The flagging system only deter's massive zerging outside the scenario's otherwise players defending a castle siege war or node siege would be team killing with corruption.

    Dont get me wrong though, large scale combat in video games is still a lot of run regardless of chaos

    Zergs are always the easy way to win. Smart games like DAoC and ESO (before they broke it) gave players tools to deal with Zerg and Ball groups. As long as Ashes dev team give us the tools to deal with zeros, we will be ok. In DAoC my realm was the underdogs with numbers. We had the tools to take out armies twice our size with the tools given and tactics.
  • EndowedEndowed Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Endowed wrote: »
    Just an observation.
    I think this is more of an observation about the player type

    And on the viewer side of things, I'd imagine that the ones interested in pvp would be more interested in just participating in it themselves,.
    Yet even the new videos about older popular mmo pvp that are popular are those with the lore n dungeons and dynamic worlds. Without them nobody cares. It could be in any game - even fps or rpg.

    And crafting? 💀 nobody cares very much at all. Even the crafters.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Endowed wrote: »
    Yet even the new videos about older popular mmo pvp that are popular are those with the lore n dungeons and dynamic worlds. Without them nobody cares. It could be in any game - even fps or rpg.

    And crafting? 💀 nobody cares very much at all. Even the crafters.
    As I said, people that like stories will watch those videos. People that like pvp will just go and pvp. It's a "passive vs active" preference.

    Crafting is even harder to present well because it's rarely designed in a presentable way, because crafters seem to be an even bigger niche than pvpers.
  • this thread became a chat
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    So on PvP I agree with the points is the game needs a more fluid way to trigger it. The goal should be a more flexible oh there's this thing I want and this player is going to take it if I don't fight them for it. The current look I see especially with the addition of the lawless zone is we are herding our PvPers here so they don't bother the rest of the game. Which is the opposite approach it should take, good PvP should lead a normal player to want to engage in it. Honestly I think a majority of the people that "dislike" the idea of PvP is not because they wouldn't enjoy it but because of the stigma and perceived bar of entry it has. Some of the biggest games being literal PvP games I.E. League of legends, Fortnite, CSgo. It's the notion that PvP in an MMO is bad or griefing for those participating because it's not shown as a regular players fun game loop.

    The other reason more casual players don't want to PvP especially in a game like ashes is the losses associated with it. This is a matter of how the game provides a way to recoup their losses. This is rough since Ashes wants consequences to matter and I personally have no idea on mitigating this. The best would be how bad the corruption system starts out and how to work it off. Losing a piece of equipment on level one corruption is not going to help.

    As for PvE The notion that we can't have difficult bosses because it's open world I think is a bit of a cop out. There are multiple ways I could see implementing bosses that have fun difficult mechanics using the open world aspect as an advantage. Some ideas,
    Open world boss literal AOE bomb dropper, so people can use Ashes movement gameplay to it's advantage. Imagine having a PvP war while this boss is dropping meteor's on you Paying attention to both sure tough but If we don't play games for fights that are tough what's the point.
    Second open world boss, Necromancer or Goblin king. Hoard boss sure you can hate ads but when the amount of summons increase as more players come or dead players spawning new ads.
    Maybe not bosses but Why can't we have a racing dungeon. Race to the center of a dungeon and the first group to arrive get's locked in a room with the main boss. From here we could have some things like the other groups get dropped into a trap. There could be a second boss that needs the first boss to die.

    There are multiple ways to have players engage with each other that's also not straight up fighting. Have an open world hoard boss with a kill count leader board.

    Onto the OG topic for this thread the way I see it with Ashes level of complexity it wants to imbibe we will need layers in the systems to exist for the casual player.
    Probably we could easily split it into three layers of Hardcore/deep, regular/medium, casual/easy.
    Example's would be for PvP you have the node siege's at hardcore they need a lot of investment, strategy and time involved. The motivation for them is aslo in line with hardcore gameplay.
    Then at the middle level we have guild wars and node wars, with not as much consequence. They still require some investment and time but the overall activity is much easier to join in.
    At the casual end we have the caravan system. If you want with the caravan factions it could function like quick join matches between players with little to no investment on the personal end.

    Second example is the crafting. You have the fulltime crafters with hours not only doing there craft but selling and doing custom commissions. These are devoted professions that spend a majority of there time crafting and are probably part of big groups for their specializations.
    In the middle you have general guild crafters or node centered crafters. These are people that support the systems in place. Helping with guild tasks and node commissions. With a more help with what's needed attitude.
    At the casual end you have the player who treat it like a farming sim. They'll go out farm mats they enjoy and maybe take a commission or two if they need the currency.

    Using both of these as the example I think the way to allow a casual population to enjoy these systems is the ease of access they have provided. Right now in alpha we don't even have the hardcore full systems in place. Until these get done we can't add the ease for players to drop into whatever is going on and participate that casual players need.

    I'm a rambler so I'll stop here but hopefully that gives an idea about how to lead more casual players to want to play Ashes.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Endowed wrote: »
    Yet even the new videos about older popular mmo pvp that are popular are those with the lore n dungeons and dynamic worlds. Without them nobody cares. It could be in any game - even fps or rpg.

    And crafting? 💀 nobody cares very much at all. Even the crafters.
    As I said, people that like stories will watch those videos. People that like pvp will just go and pvp. It's a "passive vs active" preference.

    Crafting is even harder to present well because it's rarely designed in a presentable way, because crafters seem to be an even bigger niche than pvpers.

    This doesn't work for me, as if it were true, PvP videos of current games wouldn't be at all popular.

    To me, what I think it comes down to is a reflection of the fact that PvP in every game is basically the same - or at least the intention behind PvP is the same.

    In PvP, you are fighting the player. That doesn't really change all that much from game to game. The combat/PvP system is in there, but it is really the other player you are fighting. PvP players are always fighting with the developers to make the combat system matter less and the player matter more (via saying they want skill to matter more). This is literally asking for developers to make games where you are playing against the same players as in every other PvP MMO.

    The only PvP guild I've been in played across three different games in the few years I was associated with them. There were two guilds that we fought against in all three of those games - obviously among other guilds we fought against - and the outcome was the same every time. Any notion that the players change based on the game is absolute rubbish.

    The thing is, this is what PvP players want. They want player skill to matter more, meaning the games combat system matters less, meaning you are primarily playing against the rival player - making PvP across all games essentially the same.

    As such, there is literally no point in watching a PvP video from a game that you are not playing. No point at all. There is, to some, however, a point in watching a PvP video in regards to a game you are currently playing - which is why we see some PvP videos on current games doing ok.

    WIth PvE though, because you are not fighting other players, because developers of different games produce different enemies for players to fight, it is often quite interesting watching PvE videos for games other than ones you play. Same with lore and world design, it is different across different games.
  • TheDarkSorcererTheDarkSorcerer Member, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    This is an area I'm am conflicted with. I don't think Steven is making the game he wants. The world is so large, to make it feel alive you will need 8-10k players per server. This is needed to find content and meaningful PvX everywhere. For that you will need many casuals. Without them the world will feel empty.

    As it stands the moves are driving away casuels. That's breaks the need for a large world being designed. With smaller populations the world needs to be smaller to make the world alive and functioning for a live PvX game.

    So punishing game needs a smaller world

    More casuel friendly can support a large world

    You can't have both. I don't care what Steven picks. He just needs to decide what game he wants and take everything in that direction.

    This is the fact for every area of the game. Crafting, questing, gear and much more. Does all of it fit the goal of driving away casuels? Is every system designed to keep a large population playing?

    Omg, this!
    m6jque7ofxxf.gif
  • iccericcer Member
    edited August 12
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    So on PvP I agree with the points is the game needs a more fluid way to trigger it. The goal should be a more flexible oh there's this thing I want and this player is going to take it if I don't fight them for it. The current look I see especially with the addition of the lawless zone is we are herding our PvPers here so they don't bother the rest of the game. Which is the opposite approach it should take, good PvP should lead a normal player to want to engage in it. Honestly I think a majority of the people that "dislike" the idea of PvP is not because they wouldn't enjoy it but because of the stigma and perceived bar of entry it has. Some of the biggest games being literal PvP games I.E. League of legends, Fortnite, CSgo. It's the notion that PvP in an MMO is bad or griefing for those participating because it's not shown as a regular players fun game loop.

    The other reason more casual players don't want to PvP especially in a game like ashes is the losses associated with it. This is a matter of how the game provides a way to recoup their losses. This is rough since Ashes wants consequences to matter and I personally have no idea on mitigating this. The best would be how bad the corruption system starts out and how to work it off. Losing a piece of equipment on level one corruption is not going to help.

    I do agree, and I think we have discussed this previously somewhere (maybe in this thread even). The game needs to create that "feeling" of PvP being a regular gameplay loop, of it being meaningful. The whole setting, world, environment, story, etc. should make you feel that there's always danger, that PvP is a viable option and an expectation in certain moments, etc. Otherwise, it mostly will feel like griefing.
    (Griefing refers to deliberately disruptive or malicious actions in online games, meant to annoy or frustrate other players and negatively impact their enjoyment of the game. It can involve various actions like attacking other players, destroying structures, stealing items)
    In a lot of games that I've played in the past, it just felt like griefing.


    The thing is, the PvP games you listed are lobby based, match based, PvP games. PvP in MMOs is completely different, and I'm just not sure if it can create that same feeling of PvP being "normal".
    In MMOs there are a few "issues":

    1) Gear difference > skill difference. There's no matchmaking based on skill or gear, you will dunk on low geared players, and high geared players will dunk on you.

    That's just how open-world works, unless certain zones and content is just made for high geared players, so that low geared players don't even venture into those zones.
    But again, due to the current design, those high geared players can go and PvP anywhere, against anyone, as there's nothing really stopping them. Corruption works equally for everyone, and it mainly works to "especially discourage" killing low level players - but it doesn't take gear level into account (and if the progression system makes it so that the difference in gear has a really high impact on your power, then you have the same frustration as if it was a fight between a low lvl and a high lvl player).

    2) MMOs are not lobby/match based, instead it's a persistent world. You will see the same players often, where in lobby based games, you just won't (unless you are very high rank in those games, where the pool of similar players is just lower, and you do meet the same players often).

    3) You usually do other stuff, like traveling, exploring, gathering, crafting, or PvE content in general, and PvP can often feel like a disruption or griefing.

    Players often do not want to be interrupted and griefed when out there in the open world, leveling, exploring, etc. But, when you create content like world bosses, open-world dungeons, etc. you come in with an expectation that there will be some PvP involved. You often prepare for it. There's competition for the farming spot, for a boss, etc. - there's friction created, and not everyone can expect a reward being given out for them. I'm absolutely fine with this sort of content, and PvP in this setting being not only a viable, but a preferred option.
    The issue is, that same PvP can and will happen elsewhere too, where there is no real competition for anything. It will happen because some people just want to grief others.


    Now @Azherae might say that Throne & Liberty is a perfect game for a player like myself, but I did play it, and I don't think it is.
    What I disliked there is that world bosses had a pre-selected spot where they spawn at pre-determined times, with a small PvP area around it.
    What I want is something more dynamic, with a much larger PvP area. I want an entire zone to go into a "conflict" mode, where PvP is enabled, where there is risk being there, but maybe also reward. Similar to how Archeage worked.
    Also, while night-time dungeons enabled PvP, there really was no point to them (unless they involved a world boss), as the top guild(s) will almost always monopolize it. Also, PvPing for a spot there just wasn't worth it back when I played. Maybe you get a few more tags, and overall farm a bit faster, but even when there's no PvP enabled, you can just make a group and just farm stuff easily anyways.

    Ideally, the world should have PvP enabled almost everywhere, rather than just a tiny PvP circle on the map at certain times of the day.


    Here's an idea:

    With the lawless zones being introduced, I think they can create a much more interesting system in Ashes, where zones have a varying conflict level, let's say from Conflict (being the lowest) to Lawless (being the highest level).
    Each level should decrease corruption gain and maybe even the overall effect of corruption - and in lawless zones you don't generate corruption at all for killing people, or if you are already corrupted - it has no effect on you in that zone.
    This way, a Conflict zone might as well be "Safe", as the corruption is really punishing, it's really easy to become corrupted, and really nobody in their right mind will look to turn corrupted there anyways.
    Then a few levels above that, you get regular corruption gains, where sometimes it might be worth PKing, if there's a reward, corruption is moderately punishing, and moderately easy/hard to gain.
    Lawless, FFA PvP basically, avoid those zones if you don't want to PvP basically.

    Now what should influence these levels of conflict? Dynamic events, the amount of activity going on in the zone itself, in open-world dungeons, etc. - or even certain world events, world bosses, etc. that would turn the zone into higher conflict level zone. Story arcs???
    All of this is planned to exist in the game, they should just use it to actually impact the world and make it dynamic, like they planned to. This is one way to do it - by introducing PvP/Conflict aspect into it.

    This also helps those "PvE" players, to simply avoid high risk areas, if they don't want to PvP. Though this might be a bit tough, considering the travel times, and a lack of fast travel in general. It's still a much better solution I think for everyone, even the PvP players.
    If PvP players want to PvP, they will look to go to those higher conflict areas, where they most probably will find it.
    Rewards should probably scale accordingly, but not to the point lawless or high risk areas are just way better than anything else. The reward should be the experience itself.
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