Does Intrepid Need To Worry About This Or Is It Just Us?

Making this post on behalf of @JustVine since she's busy but wanted to get it down before losing the train of thought.

Throne and Liberty is adding its 'Summoner' in a month or so (since TL is a Weapons=Skill Options game, this weapon is 'Orb').

When they released Spear, our Spear user was slightly annoyed at which mobs did/didn't drop Spears in the open world and some Dungeons (lack of connection). A few Spear users that joined us since then had similar reactions (one of them kinda 'couldn't get into the game' because of it, but that's only part of it).

Way back when FF11 didn't have certain Jobs yet, the Beastmen (specifically the Yagudo) didn't have all their Jobs either. (Ninja, Samurai, Summoner, all common-ish Yagudo jobs now), so there was no expectation that they'd drop any specific thing. The mobs were changed outright in the expansion that added those (usually a job change, not a name or spawn location change)

TL does this 'differently', Mobs in the world can have proto-versions of stuff for 'testing'/efficient use of development time, part of why the Spear thing was weird was explicitly because multiple mobs are explicitly Spear users, and this is also somewhat true for Orb (though much less explicit, there are definitely mobs that make sense as 'Orb users' in multiple places).

This means that for a player that started FF11 in the expansion that added Samurai, Summoners and Ninja, their experience was that the Yagudo, even lower level ones, 'always' had Samurai, Summoners and Ninja. Where this matters is weapons (in FF11, because Samurai and Ninja mostly just share armor with Monks, etc). While FF11 didn't make much effort to add drops of related weapons to even the elites of those Jobs at lower levels, this is because lower level FF11 gear primarily comes from crafting so it wasn't needed.

We now know that Intrepid doesn't really plan to take this approach (as of this post), full wearable gear will still drop from mobs in the open world, and some players are definitely going to choose that as their path to Progression. (those with strong opinions on that should give them here - this thread isn't about that so I request that no one focus on it.)

So, in short:

Do people generally actually care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them?
Would you rather that the Devs entirely avoid changing mobs when new abilities/concepts are added? (there's room for nuance here, e.g. in TL they could add new Orb-using enemies instead of 'changing' Shadowed Crypt's Dark Shamans' drop tables at all)
When dealing with a dynamic game like Ashes where things like Catacombs and PoIs can rise and fall, appear and disappear, or mob populations/behaviour can change by world-state, will it 'bother' you if most things don't actually change?

(my job in this thread is to clarify things mostly, so mostly wait for/address JustVine if you need to know 'opinions', I'm sure my personal opinions are implied)

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nanfoodle

I read the first 1/3 of the OP and had to force myself too. T & L is not anything to worry about. The combat alone in Ashes is miles better then T & L. I would play Ashes in an Alpha state over the released T & L. If Ashes failed, I would not even consider T & L as an option for me.

Ludullu

1. I'd prefer if the visuals matched the drops, cause it would help with parsing what a mob can drop w/o going to a 3rd party site
2. I'm fine with the change, if it's explained in even a semi-interesting way (i.e. maybe a new boss "took over" a location and now the old mobs are influenced by it, so they have changed their weapons or got new abilities)
3. Won't bother me, cause I already expect just a few gamestates instead of something truly unique or rng

Ludullu

nanfoodle wrote: »

I read the first 1/3 of the OP and had to force myself too. T & L is not anything to worry about. The combat alone in Ashes is miles better then T & L. I would play Ashes in an Alpha state over the released T & L. If Ashes failed, I would not even consider T & L as an option for me.

If only you had read the entire post... None of that post was about competition between games or anything related to that. It was just an example of what other games have, to give context for the question at the end of the post.

Birthday

If visuals match what mobs drop that would be a world first honestly.
It has always deeply annoyed me that the mob never drops it's weapon/armor/trinket and instead randomly drops other stuff.

Ludullu

Birthday wrote: »

If visuals match what mobs drop that would be a world first honestly.
It has always deeply annoyed me that the mob never drops it's weapon/armor/trinket and instead randomly drops other stuff.

I think all souls games have that. And as the examples in the OP explain, some mmos do it too.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Making this post on behalf of @JustVine since she's busy but wanted to get it down before losing the train of thought.

Throne and Liberty is adding its 'Summoner' in a month or so (since TL is a Weapons=Skill Options game, this weapon is 'Orb').

When they released Spear, our Spear user was slightly annoyed at which mobs did/didn't drop Spears in the open world and some Dungeons (lack of connection). A few Spear users that joined us since then had similar reactions (one of them kinda 'couldn't get into the game' because of it, but that's only part of it).

Way back when FF11 didn't have certain Jobs yet, the Beastmen (specifically the Yagudo) didn't have all their Jobs either. (Ninja, Samurai, Summoner, all common-ish Yagudo jobs now), so there was no expectation that they'd drop any specific thing. The mobs were changed outright in the expansion that added those (usually a job change, not a name or spawn location change)

TL does this 'differently', Mobs in the world can have proto-versions of stuff for 'testing'/efficient use of development time, part of why the Spear thing was weird was explicitly because multiple mobs are explicitly Spear users, and this is also somewhat true for Orb (though much less explicit, there are definitely mobs that make sense as 'Orb users' in multiple places).

This means that for a player that started FF11 in the expansion that added Samurai, Summoners and Ninja, their experience was that the Yagudo, even lower level ones, 'always' had Samurai, Summoners and Ninja. Where this matters is weapons (in FF11, because Samurai and Ninja mostly just share armor with Monks, etc). While FF11 didn't make much effort to add drops of related weapons to even the elites of those Jobs at lower levels, this is because lower level FF11 gear primarily comes from crafting so it wasn't needed.

We now know that Intrepid doesn't really plan to take this approach (as of this post), full wearable gear will still drop from mobs in the open world, and some players are definitely going to choose that as their path to Progression. (those with strong opinions on that should give them here - this thread isn't about that so I request that no one focus on it.)

So, in short:
Do people generally actually care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them?

Would you rather that the Devs entirely avoid changing mobs when new abilities/concepts are added? (there's room for nuance here, e.g. in TL they could add new Orb-using enemies instead of 'changing' Shadowed Crypt's Dark Shamans' drop tables at all)

When dealing with a dynamic game like Ashes where things like Catacombs and PoIs can rise and fall, appear and disappear, or mob populations/behaviour can change by world-state, will it 'bother' you if most things don't actually change?

(my job in this thread is to clarify things mostly, so mostly wait for/address JustVine if you need to know 'opinions', I'm sure my personal opinions are implied)

1- if they mathc, it's nice; but if they don't, i don't really care, although it would be a bit weird fighting a mob with a spear and you get a 2 handed sword as a drop, instead of the spear. ultimately, I don't care.

2- they can't really be adding new mobs everywhere for each weapon. imagine having starting areas, for example, full of 9348574857 types of mobs lol. they will eventually have to change loot tables.

3- no. don't care. there probably won't be a way to get some items when the world changes, and you would have to destroy a node and develop a different one to farm certain gear...or just craft it.

Caww

Azherae wrote: »

[*] Do people generally actually care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them?

No, standard procedure is for drop tables to allow for many player types to get a chance at something useful which is only fair given the group nature of most take-downs.

Azherae wrote: »

[*] Would you rather that the Devs entirely avoid changing mobs when new abilities/concepts are added? (there's room for nuance here, e.g. in TL they could add new Orb-using enemies instead of 'changing' Shadowed Crypt's Dark Shamans' drop tables at all)

No, updating across the board when exciting changes occur is a big part of attracting and retaining players and allows for existing content to remain fresh(er).

Azherae wrote: »

[*] When dealing with a dynamic game like Ashes where things like Catacombs and PoIs can rise and fall, appear and disappear, or mob populations/behaviour can change by world-state, will it 'bother' you if most things don't actually change?

Yes - it's called getting stale....

JustVine

Depraved wrote: »

(my job in this thread is to clarify things mostly, so mostly wait for/address JustVine if you need to know 'opinions', I'm sure my personal opinions are implied)

1- if they mathc, it's nice; but if they don't, i don't really care, although it would be a bit weird fighting a mob with a spear and you get a 2 handed sword as a drop, instead of the spear. ultimately, I don't care.

2- they can't really be adding new mobs everywhere for each weapon. imagine having starting areas, for example, full of 9348574857 types of mobs lol. they will eventually have to change loot tables.

3- no. don't care. there probably won't be a way to get some items when the world changes, and you would have to destroy a node and develop a different one to farm certain gear...or just craft it.

To me it sounds like you actually DO care, but it is a lower priority because you have less faith in the team to be able to do little details like this to increase immersion than I do and are afraid the stuff you do care about might get neglected. That's understandable though. You need a dev that shows a lot of aptitude at juggling multiple things to feel confident in that.

Birthday wrote: »

If visuals match what mobs drop that would be a world first honestly.
It has always deeply annoyed me that the mob never drops it's weapon/armor/trinket and instead randomly drops other stuff.

So in TL the mobs all have one or two weapon types the same as players. The design type that seems to be their 'methodology' trends more towards the drop coming from 'whatever is easiest for that weapon to kill'. I don't like this for many reasons chief among them immersion. But I also don't like how little confidence this type of design has in the player. Overworld is already made to be less challenging. You might as well value immersion over 'sensible' things like 'making sure all classes get relevant drops' in places where challenge isn't the deciding factor.

Even if I did like Ashes combat (jury is still negative compared to A1 combat), it is too simplistic and easy for 'drop what makes the most sense to make the world feel alive' to not be the guiding principle in all itemization. This is part of why I still play FFXI to this day! They succeed so well at this living breathing world just through drops and sensible ecology that I keep feeling alive even when the world is empty of most of the people that originally inhabited it.

Depraved

JustVine wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

(my job in this thread is to clarify things mostly, so mostly wait for/address JustVine if you need to know 'opinions', I'm sure my personal opinions are implied)

1- if they mathc, it's nice; but if they don't, i don't really care, although it would be a bit weird fighting a mob with a spear and you get a 2 handed sword as a drop, instead of the spear. ultimately, I don't care.

2- they can't really be adding new mobs everywhere for each weapon. imagine having starting areas, for example, full of 9348574857 types of mobs lol. they will eventually have to change loot tables.

3- no. don't care. there probably won't be a way to get some items when the world changes, and you would have to destroy a node and develop a different one to farm certain gear...or just craft it.

To me it sounds like you actually DO care, but it is a lower priority because you have less faith in the team to be able to do little details like this to increase immersion than I do and are afraid the stuff you do care about might get neglected. That's understandable though. You need a dev that shows a lot of aptitude at juggling multiple things to feel confident in that.

Birthday wrote: »

If visuals match what mobs drop that would be a world first honestly.
It has always deeply annoyed me that the mob never drops it's weapon/armor/trinket and instead randomly drops other stuff.

So in TL the mobs all have one or two weapon types the same as players. The design type that seems to be their 'methodology' trends more towards the drop coming from 'whatever is easiest for that weapon to kill'. I don't like this for many reasons chief among them immersion. But I also don't like how little confidence this type of design has in the player. Overworld is already made to be less challenging. You might as well value immersion over 'sensible' things like 'making sure all classes get relevant drops' in places where challenge isn't the deciding factor.

Even if I did like Ashes combat (jury is still negative compared to A1 combat), it is too simplistic and easy for 'drop what makes the most sense to make the world feel alive' to not be the guiding principle in all itemization. This is part of why I still play FFXI to this day! They succeed so well at this living breathing world just through drops and sensible ecology that I keep feeling alive even when the world is empty of most of the people that originally inhabited it.

no, its just a cool thing like woah i got his spear or his sword! but its not that important to me.

i mean antharas dropping every possible gear was better than if it ha donly dropped 1 type of weapon xD

same as baium ahhaha

or punishment of splendors dropping a bow when they are a dagger type mob that splits into a tank type mob xDD, i didnt care if it didnt drop a dagger. it was whatever

iccer

Azherae wrote: »

So, in short:
Do people generally actually care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them?

Would you rather that the Devs entirely avoid changing mobs when new abilities/concepts are added? (there's room for nuance here, e.g. in TL they could add new Orb-using enemies instead of 'changing' Shadowed Crypt's Dark Shamans' drop tables at all)

When dealing with a dynamic game like Ashes where things like Catacombs and PoIs can rise and fall, appear and disappear, or mob populations/behaviour can change by world-state, will it 'bother' you if most things don't actually change?

1. Yes, to an extent.

I don't particularly care if a turtle mob drops a piece of gear or a weapon, for example - it doesn't have to be realistic.
What I do care about is that drops make some sense in terms of visuals and stats, based on the environment and the mob itself.
If a turtle drops a piece of gear, it should be more focused on tankiness, hp, resistance, etc.
If a wolf drops a weapon, it better be a physical type, maybe the weapon itself has stats that increase phys damage, or affect bleeds in some way.
If I kill a scorpion that's out in the desert, it better give me something for fire damage, with visuals that generally match the area, etc. Maybe a chest piece that adds fire resist, for example. It could also be poison due to the mob type, rather than the environment the mob is in.
If I kill a mob in a snowy area, I better not see fire damage or something similar there, with "desert" visuals.

The same goes for set pieces, they should only drop from enemies that make the most sense.

Now all of this really depends on how the actual gear, stats, and combat in general will work, there might not be such "depth" in Ashes, so most of what I've said could be irrelevant.

2. I don't particularly care if they do or not.

Tbf it is supposed to be a dynamic world after all, so why not add stuff - or rather introduce change through adding another "world state" for a particular node or area.
Also, they can always easily just add drops to mobs - where it makes sense - see my first point.

3. Sure.

Why go through all that effort, to make such a system, just for the world to be the same and not change.
I do understand that people will just optimize the fun out of the game, and after a certain time, there are going to be certain choices that will be more optimal/efficient, to the point where those who have power will be able to control and push the world into a very specific state that suits them.
I'm more so going to be annoyed by the lack of different content, or rather by the lack of variety and change. I'll be annoyed if it gets stale and boring.

JamesSunderland

Q: Do people generally actually care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them?

A: I believe the answer to be no. the majority of people generaliy do not care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them.

For me personally and for my groups(asked them out of curiosity) it was mostly "it's cool and all but far from something that would bother.".

Q: Would you rather that the Devs entirely avoid changing mobs when new abilities/concepts are added? (there's room for nuance here, e.g. in TL they could add new Orb-using enemies instead of 'changing' Shadowed Crypt's Dark Shamans' drop tables at all)

A: I would rather they use such "new abilities/concepts" for new mob instead of iterating upon already established ones, unless when regarding generalized mechanics.

Q: When dealing with a dynamic game like Ashes where things like Catacombs and PoIs can rise and fall, appear and disappear, or mob populations/behaviour can change by world-state, will it 'bother' you if most things don't actually change?

A: An example of "most things don't actually change" would certainly help the clarity of this question, but even having it the answer would still be most likely no.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

So, in short:
Do people generally actually care about the connection between what you fight and what it drops enough that it bothers them?

Would you rather that the Devs entirely avoid changing mobs when new abilities/concepts are added? (there's room for nuance here, e.g. in TL they could add new Orb-using enemies instead of 'changing' Shadowed Crypt's Dark Shamans' drop tables at all)

When dealing with a dynamic game like Ashes where things like Catacombs and PoIs can rise and fall, appear and disappear, or mob populations/behaviour can change by world-state, will it 'bother' you if most things don't actually change?

Answering these three questions:

1, not at all. As a notion, it is nice, I guess, but gameplay factors should ALWAYS come first. There shouldn't be mobs that only drops one desired item, bosses and named mobs should have items desired by multiple different classes. This renders this notion impossible already.

2, I would rather developers create, test and balance content, send it live and rebalanced if needed, and then leave it the fuck alone. When new abilities and/or concepts are added to the game, make new content to showcase it.

3, no, this won't bother me. With the way Ashes is, the less of the game world that changes, the higher the quality that world can be - over all. Intrepid have a certain number of man-hours they can dedicated to creating the game world. If they have to do everything 4 times, it means each version of that world gets a quarter of the amount of time put in to it that it otherwise would have - meaning lower quality.

JustVine

So far to answer one there is a general consensus that ofc it would be nice to have but and the but varies slightly. I feel Iccers answer to question one captures a lot I also jive with.

Part of something that came up for me recently. A guildy was confused about where to find gear. You could look it up, but ultimately having in game cues while you are levlling that are easy to grasp and straight forward to learn, it is hard to beat spear using mob drops spear. It doesn't need to drop only spear (in fact all the better they dont so spear needers learn about the rest of the economy!) But it improves the immersion, leveling experience and natural knowledge gain. It just seems like a win win to me.

I know this type of thing is partially what makes leveling alts feel so bad in most games. Having to break character constantly and remember some artificial construct with usually very little ingame world build justification makes the game feel painfully dry. It makes the world feel less alive and real in a way that FFXI tends to not have when leveling a new job.

Ludullu

JustVine wrote: »

Part of something that came up for me recently. A guildy was confused about where to find gear. You could look it up, but ultimately having in game cues while you are levlling that are easy to grasp and straight forward to learn, it is hard to beat spear using mob drops spear. It doesn't need to drop only spear (in fact all the better they dont so spear needers learn about the rest of the economy!) But it improves the immersion, leveling experience and natural knowledge gain. It just seems like a win win to me.

This is why I've been suggesting a directed approach to quest/commission rewards. Quests should give recipes, commissions should give mats. Both should be related to mobs that already drop the mats for the item that the recipe crafts, and commissions should be fully choosable instead of rng.

Quest rewards should be visible when you decide whether to take them, so people can immediately know if the reward will be valuable to them or not.

Even better if there's an "info broker" in each node that can direct you towards quest NPCs by filters of "oh, you wanna get yourself some gear? Well I've heard that Snorf Sholpadorf has been looking for help with some archer bandits and promises to teach you how to get a bow of your own". Obviously that's the most basic approach to my suggestion, but I'd still prefer it over random flowery language that gives you no info and 0 direction in the game. Mostly because THAT approach will always lead to 3rd party gameplay optimizers.

unknown

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