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No Loot, No Fun — What's the Point of Exploring?

1246

Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Oh, perfect short here
    https://youtube.com/shorts/fChLTATOx0I?si=_dNcs7xggy2lN78c

    To him, all of the hardcore suffering pvpness IS the core design, and that ain't changing.

    I do find it interesting to see people realize for themselves what I first talked about several years ago.

    The design of this game is objectively wrong. I can't think of a more direct way of stating the issues this game has than that.

    I mean, creating a game for what you know to be a very niche audience, and then having servers with 10k concurrent players needed to make them feel not empty? These two things shouldn't exist in the same game, and this fact should be obvious to literally everyone when it is stated bluntly like this.

    A large world and very limited fast travel? Same deal, shouldn't exist together. Even if there are valid reasons for each of these things existing, when it became apparant to Steven that the design of the game made it so that these two things had to co-exist, he should have gone back to the drawing board.

    Sure, there are other issues with the game as it is today, but they can technically be fixed. Issues with aspects of the core design that are in direct opposition with each other though, they cant be fixed.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    I do find it interesting to see people realize for themselves what I first talked about several years ago.
    I started to feel the water heating up back when open seas got introduced, but still thought that some things might counterbalance that.

    But at this point I'm just sitting in the boiling water and waiting for the inevitable end. Ribbit
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Then he has been lying.

    I am more like - concerned - that he goes and kills his Game with it.

    For like " ONLY 15% " of all Players or less ?? How is that ever going to finance the Game ? Am i underestimating such a low Number when the Game has monthly Subscriptions ?

    Sir Steven shouldn't hate the Concept that "Everyone" can get something like a Trophy - and/or Achievement : and partake in something rare and/or special and score a rare Win with it.

    I myself for Example,
    can be completely content with being a lowly - and i truly mean "LOWLY" - > Underdog Grunt who will never ever forever being able to own a Freehold,

    never be able to do any Group Content aside from if i am lucky and others are unusually merciful and/or generous : and that i will forever be a Victim on the huge Worldmap for most Players or at least more than One other Player who could just go and attack my Character.

    But that doesn't mean that the Game is good because of it.
    That also doesn't mean that the Game is unique because of it.

    That doesn't mean that Ashes of Creation is something special only because most Players will forever be an Underdog and only like a handful of People or more will for Example being able to have a flying Mount. ;)

    And No !
    I don't mean the flying Mounts specifically. I mean everything else.

    The Game needs to -> let's say,
    be AT LEAST a little bit more rewarding and fun for Solo Players than it has been in Phase 1.

    I have no Doubts that 1.0. Release Ashes of Creation can* be this Game.
    But the important Question is, if Sir Steven even wants that. :sweat_smile:

    Quote from Steven

    “Even if you only have a short time to play, we want that time to feel meaningful. Whether you’re gathering, doing a quick dungeon, or helping your node progress, your contribution matters.” – Steven Sharif

    “We know a lot of our players won’t have endless hours to play every day. I want to hear from you — what systems or features would help make Ashes feel rewarding for casual players too? Your feedback is really important as we shape this.” – Steven Sharif

    Steven Sharif Interview – Golden Feather Tavern Podcast (Sept 12, 2025)

    https://www.youtube.com/live/cAABK4_janM?si=xtx_YiTl1X6JmLey

    Even the wiki talks about having paths of leveling that would be easier for casuals. This has been said since the start.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    “Even if you only have a short time to play, we want that time to feel meaningful. Whether you’re gathering, doing a quick dungeon, or helping your node progress, your contribution matters.” – Steven Sharif
    This is just another quote that shows Steven doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.

    There are no "quick" open world dungeons. There are no "quick" PvP dungeons.

    When time-limited people talk about logging on to do a quick dungoen, they are specifically talking about doing an instanced dungeon.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Then he has been lying.

    I am more like - concerned - that he goes and kills his Game with it.

    For like " ONLY 15% " of all Players or less ?? How is that ever going to finance the Game ? Am i underestimating such a low Number when the Game has monthly Subscriptions ?

    Sir Steven shouldn't hate the Concept that "Everyone" can get something like a Trophy - and/or Achievement : and partake in something rare and/or special and score a rare Win with it.

    I myself for Example,
    can be completely content with being a lowly - and i truly mean "LOWLY" - > Underdog Grunt who will never ever forever being able to own a Freehold,

    never be able to do any Group Content aside from if i am lucky and others are unusually merciful and/or generous : and that i will forever be a Victim on the huge Worldmap for most Players or at least more than One other Player who could just go and attack my Character.

    But that doesn't mean that the Game is good because of it.
    That also doesn't mean that the Game is unique because of it.

    That doesn't mean that Ashes of Creation is something special only because most Players will forever be an Underdog and only like a handful of People or more will for Example being able to have a flying Mount. ;)

    And No !
    I don't mean the flying Mounts specifically. I mean everything else.

    The Game needs to -> let's say,
    be AT LEAST a little bit more rewarding and fun for Solo Players than it has been in Phase 1.

    I have no Doubts that 1.0. Release Ashes of Creation can* be this Game.
    But the important Question is, if Sir Steven even wants that. :sweat_smile:

    Quote from Steven

    “Even if you only have a short time to play, we want that time to feel meaningful. Whether you’re gathering, doing a quick dungeon, or helping your node progress, your contribution matters.” – Steven Sharif

    “We know a lot of our players won’t have endless hours to play every day. I want to hear from you — what systems or features would help make Ashes feel rewarding for casual players too? Your feedback is really important as we shape this.” – Steven Sharif

    Steven Sharif Interview – Golden Feather Tavern Podcast (Sept 12, 2025)

    https://www.youtube.com/live/cAABK4_janM?si=xtx_YiTl1X6JmLey

    Even the wiki talks about having paths of leveling that would be easier for casuals. This has been said since the start.

    Ah yes, the big question from the GFT Podcast.

    It's a question with a weird context, isn't it? It's a question where the game's design often disqualifies the answers. So while I have no doubt Steven wants a solution to this problem, either Steven or the design constraints have already eliminated most of them.

    As the most basic illustration, if you wanted to make Throne and Liberty more like Ashes in terms of PvP scheming and planning for some reason, you'd limit Fast Travel to X times per day (let's say 3 per character, the game 'only allows 1 alt'), and possibly add more spots to teleport to.

    Time-Casuals would almost always 'have enough to get content done'. Time-Hardcore would ofc complain, but their complaint wouldn't usually be 'valid', they don't need tons more Fast Travel. BDO basically didn't have it for really long (stopped studying it, don't know for certain, you'd just use Alts though).

    What do we think happens if Ashes says 'we're going to let people Fast Travel Teleport to Embersprings 3 times per day'?

    Even if it was 'one teleport charge builds every 8 hours, capping at 3', what do we think the response would be?
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Azherae wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Then he has been lying.

    I am more like - concerned - that he goes and kills his Game with it.

    For like " ONLY 15% " of all Players or less ?? How is that ever going to finance the Game ? Am i underestimating such a low Number when the Game has monthly Subscriptions ?

    Sir Steven shouldn't hate the Concept that "Everyone" can get something like a Trophy - and/or Achievement : and partake in something rare and/or special and score a rare Win with it.

    I myself for Example,
    can be completely content with being a lowly - and i truly mean "LOWLY" - > Underdog Grunt who will never ever forever being able to own a Freehold,

    never be able to do any Group Content aside from if i am lucky and others are unusually merciful and/or generous : and that i will forever be a Victim on the huge Worldmap for most Players or at least more than One other Player who could just go and attack my Character.

    But that doesn't mean that the Game is good because of it.
    That also doesn't mean that the Game is unique because of it.

    That doesn't mean that Ashes of Creation is something special only because most Players will forever be an Underdog and only like a handful of People or more will for Example being able to have a flying Mount. ;)

    And No !
    I don't mean the flying Mounts specifically. I mean everything else.

    The Game needs to -> let's say,
    be AT LEAST a little bit more rewarding and fun for Solo Players than it has been in Phase 1.

    I have no Doubts that 1.0. Release Ashes of Creation can* be this Game.
    But the important Question is, if Sir Steven even wants that. :sweat_smile:

    Quote from Steven

    “Even if you only have a short time to play, we want that time to feel meaningful. Whether you’re gathering, doing a quick dungeon, or helping your node progress, your contribution matters.” – Steven Sharif

    “We know a lot of our players won’t have endless hours to play every day. I want to hear from you — what systems or features would help make Ashes feel rewarding for casual players too? Your feedback is really important as we shape this.” – Steven Sharif

    Steven Sharif Interview – Golden Feather Tavern Podcast (Sept 12, 2025)

    https://www.youtube.com/live/cAABK4_janM?si=xtx_YiTl1X6JmLey

    Even the wiki talks about having paths of leveling that would be easier for casuals. This has been said since the start.

    Ah yes, the big question from the GFT Podcast.

    It's a question with a weird context, isn't it? It's a question where the game's design often disqualifies the answers. So while I have no doubt Steven wants a solution to this problem, either Steven or the design constraints have already eliminated most of them.

    As the most basic illustration, if you wanted to make Throne and Liberty more like Ashes in terms of PvP scheming and planning for some reason, you'd limit Fast Travel to X times per day (let's say 3 per character, the game 'only allows 1 alt'), and possibly add more spots to teleport to.

    Time-Casuals would almost always 'have enough to get content done'. Time-Hardcore would ofc complain, but their complaint wouldn't usually be 'valid', they don't need tons more Fast Travel. BDO basically didn't have it for really long (stopped studying it, don't know for certain, you'd just use Alts though).

    What do we think happens if Ashes says 'we're going to let people Fast Travel Teleport to Embersprings 3 times per day'?

    Even if it was 'one teleport charge builds every 8 hours, capping at 3', what do we think the response would be?

    What Steven has said will be in Ashes for travel...

    Basic Movement
    - Walk / Run / Sprint
    - Mounts (land-based)
    - Climbing / Mantling

    Public Transport
    - AFK Carriage (uses your mount)
    - Flight Paths (node upgrades)
    - Airships (scientific cities)
    - Taxi System (planned, player-driven)

    Fast Travel
    - Scientific Metropolis teleport
    - Family Summon
    - Node-to-node

    Faster Travel
    - Flying creatures
    - Mount speed variants: top 200% speed so far

    Design Note
    - 75 min to cross continent on foot
    - Movement tied to node progress

    This is all on the official wiki :D
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I guess your point is 'someone will quote the wiki as Word of Steven, casuals will look at it, and have the same reaction'?

    That seems accurate to what usually happens.

    And therefore, nothing actually changes in terms of the perception.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    I dislike the idea of limited but easy to use fast travel. I even dislike the current plan for family teleport, The scientific node one is fine because that is it's specialized mechanic and it is only in the ZOI of the T5 node.

    A lot of the problem is solved with understanding what gameplay you have access to around your home base. If there was a dungeon near you that took 20 minutes to get too and 2 hours to raid you probably aren't doing that in a small time period. But if you knew a cave system 15 minutes away with appropriate rewards that also helped out your guild or node. For a short playtime you could go do that.

    AOC is lacking a lot of variety and choice. As shown that everyone still gathers in the Riverlands. Does Steel Bloom or Carphen. Even still at least in P2 you saw a little bit of location awareness with players in the desert not wanting to take the time to go to the Turquois Sea for some events because of the distance. I think a lot of the burn out is because we have done the same thing 3-4 times. I stop
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    I dislike the idea of limited but easy to use fast travel. I even dislike the current plan for family teleport, The scientific node one is fine because that is it's specialized mechanic and it is only in the ZOI of the T5 node.

    A lot of the problem is solved with understanding what gameplay you have access to around your home base. If there was a dungeon near you that took 20 minutes to get too and 2 hours to raid you probably aren't doing that in a small time period. But if you knew a cave system 15 minutes away with appropriate rewards that also helped out your guild or node. For a short playtime you could go do that.

    AOC is lacking a lot of variety and choice. As shown that everyone still gathers in the Riverlands. Does Steel Bloom or Carphen. Even still at least in P2 you saw a little bit of location awareness with players in the desert not wanting to take the time to go to the Turquois Sea for some events because of the distance. I think a lot of the burn out is because we have done the same thing 3-4 times. I stop

    Ok sure, we can go the other way too.

    "Ashes should have a considerably smaller world map so that players can travel faster to local PoI and dungeons for content and grouping."
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    It's not about having the a smaller world map it's having local content that satisfies all player types. If you need something specific far away you may have to plan one of the your play sessions as a travel session of going, taking your time and getting to the place you want to go's local hub of activity.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    It's not about having the a smaller world map it's having local content that satisfies all player types. If you need something specific far away you may have to plan one of the your play sessions as a travel session of going taking your time and getting to the place you ant to go's local hub of activity.

    Ah, so it's moreso:

    "Ashes Developers should make sure that every Node has a high density of rewarding and interesting content for players of all types, who have limited time to play, to alleviate the problem of no Fast Travel and long travel times."
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    It should probably be more Biome not node but certain nodes really fall behind right now in what they offer compared to others. So it is a balance thing that I don't think has really been touched after the first release of each biome.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    It should probably be more Biome not node but certain nodes really fall behind right now in what they offer compared to others. So it is a balance thing that I don't think has really been touched after the first release of each biome.

    See, my issue is that I'm too realistic and I don't tend to rely on solutions that rely on Devs being able to do literal magic.

    Given what we've seen so far and the constant complaints that they are not doing that magic well enough, I've started to doubt that they are actually magicians.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    "Ashes should have a considerably smaller world map so that players can travel faster to local PoI and dungeons for content and grouping."

    I think the huge ingame World is okay. It make the Distance between places actually feel like something. And gives travelling more meaning as such. :smile:
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    "Ashes should have a considerably smaller world map so that players can travel faster to local PoI and dungeons for content and grouping."

    I think the huge ingame World is okay. It make the Distance between places actually feel like something. And gives travelling more meaning as such. :smile:

    Sure, it adds plenty of meaning.

    It means that casual-time players don't get to do group content without a large amount of planning and schedule coordination. That's a massive amount of meaning.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • ELRYNOELRYNO Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Inb4 the game gets marketed as early access.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Azherae wrote: »
    I guess your point is 'someone will quote the wiki as Word of Steven, casuals will look at it, and have the same reaction'?

    That seems accurate to what usually happens.

    And therefore, nothing actually changes in terms of the perception.

    Stevens words not mine, I listened to him say that list more then a few times! =-D You have to realize, some of us have been here since the kick starter
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Sure, it adds plenty of meaning.

    It means that casual-time players don't get to do group content without a large amount of planning and schedule coordination. That's a massive amount of meaning.

    " Embrace the suck, Brother !! "

    * runs to Cover * . :sweat_smile: . :D

    I feel similar. Travelling is not Fun at all in the Game currently, isn't it ? Especially for Solo Players. I am curious how Sir Steven and his mighty Crew will try to counter that all the Streets are always somehow blocked by Mobs or whole Mob Groups which will attack Players right away.

    Because obviously People seem to prefer getting killed than to wait and ask a few Minutes for Assistance in the Chat Box. I know, right ? Social Efforts ? In an MMO ??? What's next ?? Next they demand from us that we form "GROUPS" and actually put Group Teamplay before our very own Ego and Mind, right ? :mrgreen:
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    I guess your point is 'someone will quote the wiki as Word of Steven, casuals will look at it, and have the same reaction'?

    That seems accurate to what usually happens.

    And therefore, nothing actually changes in terms of the perception.

    Stevens words not mine, I listened to him say that list more then a few times! =-D You have to realize, some of us have been here since the kick starter

    Yep, I've learned that the easiest way to stop most of you from being negative is to be negative first so that you fall back to your tribal repetitions.

    And since Intrepid Devs should know that I'm always on their side and never truly negative, I can use it as a reminder that y'all aren't either, you're just frustrated, but if a black dragon appears, to arms!

    After all, the black dragon hasn't been here since Kickstarter.

    In other news, what's up with Throne and Liberty gathering having three different colors of Rocks but only 1 line of materials you get from hitting them?

    Well, Early Access.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Sure, it adds plenty of meaning.

    It means that casual-time players don't get to do group content without a large amount of planning and schedule coordination. That's a massive amount of meaning.

    " Embrace the suck, Brother !! "

    * runs to Cover * . :sweat_smile: . :D

    I feel similar. Travelling is not Fun at all in the Game currently, isn't it ? Especially for Solo Players. I am curious how Sir Steven and his mighty Crew will try to counter that all the Streets are always somehow blocked by Mobs or whole Mob Groups which will attack Players right away.

    Because obviously People seem to prefer getting killed than to wait and ask a few Minutes for Assistance in the Chat Box. I know, right ? Social Efforts ? In an MMO ??? What's next ?? Next they demand from us that we form "GROUPS" and actually put Group Teamplay before our very own Ego and Mind, right ? :mrgreen:

    Unimaginable, really.

    What we need is someone who understands how to bring back Ye Olde Days of players working together, in a popular MMO, except niche, because technically that's nearly never really happened in a popular MMO.

    A data scientist might try to tell you that it's because interdependence within challenges and progression in games isn't actually popular, but everyone knows that the real reason is because ARAM is just a better game mode for when people are drunk or high.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    Azherae wrote: »
    See, my issue is that I'm too realistic and I don't tend to rely on solutions that rely on Devs being able to do literal magic.

    Given what we've seen so far and the constant complaints that they are not doing that magic well enough, I've started to doubt that they are actually magicians.

    So I may be naive at times but the ability for each biome to have relatively enough distributed content for a variety of types of players isn't that far fetched. The map size of the Riverlands itself is about 2/3 the size of a WoW region and about the same size to New Worlds launch map size.

    If Intrepid with that room doesn't have the ability to even slightly fill up the world with things to do for every player type. Especially including direct neighboring biome area's. Then it's not that they can't do magic, but that they can't make a proper engaging world.

    references
    https://youtu.be/HusD1K62Fm0?si=6HzurLFPOy4egF7A

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/306052
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 8
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    If Intrepid with that room doesn't have the ability to even slightly fill up the world with things to do for every player type. Especially including direct neighboring biome area's. Then it's not that they can't do magic, but that they can't make a proper engaging world.
    Around 100 people worked on NW and people complained that there was no content in that game.

    Around 500 people work on WoW to fill it out with content.

    Ashes has around 200 people with 18 BIOMES the size of 1/2 WoW and entirety of NW. In other words, for Ashes to have even an approximate amount of content as either of those games - they'd need AT LEAST 100 people PER BIOME. Because if you're trying to upkeep the value of each biome through the updates - you'll need your devs to work in parallel rather than in subsequence.

    This is what Azherae means when she says "magic". And this is also why Steven has already said that we will not have content parity between nodes. Intrepid do not have the manpower to uphold their own ambition. And game will 100% not be popular enough to give them the money that would allow them to match their ambition.

    So what we'll end up with will be 1-2 great dungeons per 1-2 biomes (as we do right now) and maaaybe a few good pocket dungeons per biome. Everything else will just be peppered with some basic mobs and hopefully a shitton of minibosses/named mobs.

    Oh, and that's just the pure mob side of things. I can't even imagine how fucking much work it would require to fill out alllll of that land with proper npcs, quests, stories, jumping puzzles, etc etc. 100 people per biome might be a real damn understatement (i.e. 500 WoW devs)
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    See, my issue is that I'm too realistic and I don't tend to rely on solutions that rely on Devs being able to do literal magic.

    Given what we've seen so far and the constant complaints that they are not doing that magic well enough, I've started to doubt that they are actually magicians.

    So I may be naive at times but the ability for each biome to have relatively enough distributed content for a variety of types of players isn't that far fetched. The map size of the Riverlands itself is about 2/3 the size of a WoW region and about the same size to New Worlds launch map size.

    If Intrepid with that room doesn't have the ability to even slightly fill up the world with things to do for every player type. Especially including direct neighboring biome area's. Then it's not that they can't do magic, but that they can't make a proper engaging world.

    references
    https://youtu.be/HusD1K62Fm0?si=6HzurLFPOy4egF7A

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/306052

    A reminder that we were talking about Fast Travel at the time, or at least, I was, maybe no one else was.

    I've definitely played enough New World to tell you that New World's launch map absolutely does not have content for each player type within a 10 minute 'slow travel' radius most of the time, nor is it trying to handle things even close to the same way when it comes to that.

    To me, that's the equivalent of why 'biomes are falling short' as you said.

    Were you there in Alpha-1 before they turned off PvP? When you could be halfway down the road to get out of the Gateway area to attempt to do something else and get ganked and sent back for another 6 minute run to the same spot where your killer was probably still waiting?

    Unfortunately you don't seem to be of the club of 'those who have been here since Kickstarter'...
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Were you there in Alpha-1 before they turned off PvP? When you could be halfway down the road to get out of the Gateway area to attempt to do something else and get ganked and sent back for another 6 minute run to the same spot where your killer was probably still waiting?
    I've suggested this before, but I definitely hope we get a third respawn option of "a random spot in the node ZOI", cause home respawn could be literal hours away, while the closest one can be 100% spawncamped, neither of which is a good option for a group of people trying to farm a distant dungeon while being in a war or just having pvp enemies around.

    Guild/party/alliance player-set respawn points (again, only working if another mate died within the ZOI) could be interesting, but I'd imagine they could have some crazy exploits related to them.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    Yeah we were talking about fast travel and Azherae you brought up the size of the map needing to shrink so slow travel is more possible. Ludullu explained pretty much the glossed over magic explaining it more. That we have so little dev time per space available is probably a lot of the problem with my argument.

    Still think we need the space but there does need to be local options available for more casual playtimes and is probably one of the biggest current issues we have.

    Also though New World Content was pretty lacking in a lot of aspects I still feel the world was more filled in as I wondered about it then what event the Riverlands currently provides. The placement of different interactions and locations or POI's might have made the difference.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I definitely expect the Riverlands to improve. In fact, I don't have any issues with them as they are right now, unlike most people I think. I really love the Riverlands in terms of their ability to showcase what Intrepid is capable of, and at least for me it's easy to imagine/project where we could get more content within the Riverlands. It's well laid-out for a good mix of PvE and PvP.

    I don't know if I know how to explain this though, you'd have to have played games with much bigger maps maybe...

    A game normally has about 2k Concurrent Users across the whole map at low pop times. Let's be generous and assume Ashes will reach 4k.

    I'd say at least 800 of those people will be sitting in towns 'doing nothing but chatting'. Another 200 will be in their apartments. Ignoring them we get 3k people spread out over at least 30 'Settlements'. 1k per, max. If we even assume for a minute that only half of them are max level, and that the others are the 'casuals', then only 1500. 50 people per area.

    50 Casuals out in the world in Joeva node...

    I think I still can't manage to explain it without knowing the experience other people have, maybe Ashes will somehow provide that experience to others so they can decide the feeling on their own.

    I just know that one could definitely feel the emptiness back in the day in pretty much every other game even if those games had 2k CCU, as soon as the game world got 'too big'. For PvE games this is almost, almost a good thing. Add a little Fast Travel and it's fine. But a game with 8 player parties that are intended to clash with each other?

    I barely found opponents in open world in BDO on the most populated server and that's a matter of looking for just one person (I'm talking about actual grindspots other than the absolute top ones, not 'Tenno assassinating me on the road').

    But they want to have 6 more 'Riverlands'.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • VolgarisVolgaris Member, Alpha Two
    tryhard and casuals ...etc at the end of the day the game is supposed to be fun not a grind fest for griefers.

    imo the right way is to have a lot if not most systems designed to be able to achieve something in them , what things i dunno but good things and actual progress in the span of 30 min to 1hr at least for the general experience for all the systems then you add stuff that take longer and stuff that take less time to get done.

    right now if you log in ashes for 1 hour you might not find a group and considering most of the game force grouping ..yeah that would be a great experience lets add that even if you got lucky and found one it will probably take you 20-30 minutes at the very least of boring slow traveling to get there, the possibility of getting killed by the broken mobs or some random pvpers , the multiple penalties on death ...etc, no one will bother to do that nor anyone would be like damn i got 2 hrs of play time ashes sure do sound like a great time to spend those 2 hours in ..

    they seem to be trying to base the game mostly on Lineage which IMO is a horrible idea , they imo should of based it more on AA since that game did actually have a somewhat of a decent balance of PVX even with the couple of big problems it had that ruined the experience for the more casual playerbase than the hardcore ones imo, it still had enough breathing space and stuff to do for the casuals to stick around for a while until they fixed the problems(which they obviously didnt), that game died cuz of these problems not cuz of the little bit of P2W they added not to say it didnt affect the game it obviously did do damage but it wasnt the "Big Bad" people try to make it out to be that ruined the game.

    Hard to compare two completed and dead games to a game in alpha. Fundamentally though if you don't like L2 you might not like Ashes. Is too early to tell. I don't know if I'm going to like the game.

    If I only have an hour to play I don't normally play. I like to have 2 or 3 hours if not more. That's for basically any game though. I couldn't imagine being able to do anything meaningful in an mmo in 30 minutes. For that to be they'd have to make dungeons with instant joins and other new age instant reward mechanics. I don't think that's what ashes is trying to be. If they did I'd play it for a day or two like T&L, then uninstall.

    Lineage was a great game with great following. So was AA. How do you blend those? I don't know, AA was quick, L2 slow progression. L2 wasn't causal friendly, AA was more so with it's quest hubs and exp rewards. I'd take L2 every time over AA, but adding in some AA to L2 would be nice, which is what they seem to be going for. It's just out of balance, buggy, and incomplete.

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ok I was looking for a different game to talk about but I'm seriously stuck because the literal only Modern MMO doing this correctly enough is still Throne and Liberty, nothing but Ashes comes close (looking at you hard side-eye, Pax Dei, how could you do this to me?)

    TL has 8 'player Hubs':
    Kastleton, Vienta, Stonegard Castle (slightly diminished), Canina (intentionally(?) diminished relative to others), Herba Village, Outside Bercant Manor, Outside Crimson Manor, Purelight Tower.

    Watcher's Post, Sanctuary Oasis and Starlight Observatory count as 'PvP Hub/respawn point at certain times', but should otherwise be counted as similar to Canina (they're just more obviously so).

    If the next expansion's Region adds even 3 more, it's almost guaranteed that Stonegard Castle and Purelight Tower will be empty, and the two Manors will drop off rapidly (because they're just prep points for entering the dungeons)

    If a design goal of the game was for players to see other players and feel anything by their presence, even just seeing them come and go, they would absolutely have to expand/rework the Dungeons near Watcher's Post, Sanctuary Oasis and Starlight Observatory (they can do at least 2 of these pretty trivially, that's not the point).

    Not because 'they are lazy', not because 'they can't afford to create new zones', not because 'gathering together for party content is hard'.

    It's because it is a PvX game and if you throw everyone at the cutting edge of content, you will end up doing exactly what Ashes promised to avoid (and imo I have just realized abandoned or utterly failed at?).

    Once I leave Lionhold I don't go back. The next chance for a new player to meet me is when they manage to get to Joeva or if they happen to die somewhere in the vicinity of the guard camp I very occasionally pass near. There's no shared experience, no 'hey I've seen you around here and I like this space, maybe you and I would get along' for newbies.

    It's just impersonal Guild Recruitment shouts in World Chat, Forum Threads, and Discord.

    When we have four Gateways, I am not expecting this to be better. New players will be told by older players 'yeah just rush over here there's nothing worth doing back there', and that's if they are the type to ask.

    I hope Intrepid knows that probably 50% of Casual players are not going to ask based on 'wanting to move forward to end content that the hardcores are focused on'. They meet in dungeons, outside of them, at fishing spots, at the O-range.

    Maybe the game is not for them, so it's fine for it to be huge and driven primarily by people who are always pushing the envelope, or who already have groups, or who 'just want to be in a group and don't need the vibe of settling into one while they are low level'.

    Maybe they will share their dataset relative to that. Mine's too small a sample to be useful.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    But they want to have 6 more 'Riverlands'.

    Welp too bad for them. The World of Verra would be a bit boring if the whole "World" would look only like Riverlands. Even the Anvils which are a bit similar are different and Thanks GOOOOOOD and Sir Steven for that. :sunglasses:
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    But they want to have 6 more 'Riverlands'.

    Welp too bad for them. The World of Verra would be a bit boring if the whole "World" would look only like Riverlands. Even the Anvils which are a bit similar are different and Thanks GOOOOOOD and Sir Steven for that. :sunglasses:

    The entire world looks the same with ai placed mobs, definitely not unique biomes
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