Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
So for whom is this game is supposed to be for?
SmileGurney
Member, Alpha Two
From my perspective Phase 3 has shifted the gear progression into a full on pixel grinder. There is no illusion anymore about the past Intrepid proclamations about "We hate grind". Steven's past declaration that player progression can be achieved through different paths can be boiled down to mindlessly grinding mobs or resource nodes for 1000s of hours. Now if only this could be done through varied and engaging gameplay loops, but so far the core gameplay becomes pure drudgery at higher levels.
This is true for the all character progression paths currently available in the game: gear, citizenship, guild and node progression. Especially if you consider material rarity requirements, the current game trend demands an insane amount of materials and gold to craft ONE item, and we aren't even even the intended level cap. At that trend, what are going to be requirements for a level 40 or 50 item?
What is even worse this unhinged grind is extremely repetitive and not engaging. The game offers ZERO gameplay. I'm sorry but in 2025, hitting dumb pve bot spawns and hitting node resources isn't gameplay even for a mobile game.
Here is a thing about the actual sandbox feature which can actually lead to some player created, dynamic content, whatever that is running crates, caravans, ship combat, guild and node wars. If you want to take part in that content and have any chance to enjoy it, you are forced down a very long, dull path. Nevermind even character levelling grind, or importance of balance in sandbox competitive content, whatever that would be class, guild size or gear related balance.
Hence the question: For whom is this game is supposed to be for? Do you even realise what is an average age of your playerbase?
I get it that there are some individuals who can afford to eat, sleep and play one game 24/7, but that's is not your average player, and definitely not an average MMO player out there. People have jobs, studies, families, and life outside Ashes, and the way the current game and content is shaped, you simply won't be able to compete in the player driven content without quitting your actual life.
Is this really a sensible business model for a game which as it is is aiming for a very niche market?
This is true for the all character progression paths currently available in the game: gear, citizenship, guild and node progression. Especially if you consider material rarity requirements, the current game trend demands an insane amount of materials and gold to craft ONE item, and we aren't even even the intended level cap. At that trend, what are going to be requirements for a level 40 or 50 item?
What is even worse this unhinged grind is extremely repetitive and not engaging. The game offers ZERO gameplay. I'm sorry but in 2025, hitting dumb pve bot spawns and hitting node resources isn't gameplay even for a mobile game.
Here is a thing about the actual sandbox feature which can actually lead to some player created, dynamic content, whatever that is running crates, caravans, ship combat, guild and node wars. If you want to take part in that content and have any chance to enjoy it, you are forced down a very long, dull path. Nevermind even character levelling grind, or importance of balance in sandbox competitive content, whatever that would be class, guild size or gear related balance.
Hence the question: For whom is this game is supposed to be for? Do you even realise what is an average age of your playerbase?
I get it that there are some individuals who can afford to eat, sleep and play one game 24/7, but that's is not your average player, and definitely not an average MMO player out there. People have jobs, studies, families, and life outside Ashes, and the way the current game and content is shaped, you simply won't be able to compete in the player driven content without quitting your actual life.
Is this really a sensible business model for a game which as it is is aiming for a very niche market?
My lungs taste the air of Time,
Blown past falling sands…
Blown past falling sands…
3
Comments
Where is the engaging gameplay?
Blown past falling sands…
Assume that it's the milestone after the Social Orgs are implemented.
I personally think you place too much importance on what social organizations will bring to the game.
For the future i believe that even considering other interests, its mostly going to be for people who are interested in non-WoW like old school style MMORPGs, where pvp is a way bigger and/or the main aspect, where proper individual and team play/logistics gaving in mind the open world pvp is not only optimal but intended, where one of the main motivations for most players will be the power fantasy that only more pvp focused mmos can provide, something like the old ArcheAge's 3Cs concept.
No matter how you call it or how it claims to be, PvPvE or PvX, i believe PvP will be the main aspect.
But what i can say with certainty is that not this game and not any other game will ever be for everyone and that's just reality.
Aren't we all sinners?
Would you tell me for whom the bell tolls?
Looking at it you can PvP in specific area's for no reason, or hit a caravan but why defend it unless you are the group running it.
Wars and sieges also are just there to provide the ability to fight but you aren't gaining much participating in them right now.
crafting is abysmal time and material wise it was about 2500 hours to get 50 sets of gear for a guild this is now exponentially more difficult. Also there are now agreed upon best sets for stuff because there is not enough variety in the recipes.
Gathering is mostly just an RNG fest outside of static rarity which in it's current exploitable form needs to be removed.
Drops are none mostly existent and extremely parasitic since they don't interact with the rest of the economy at all. So nobody is happy when the drop or when they don't.
Just a whole lot of space and nothing in between is what I get from AOC right now. Intrepid especially needs to up the biomes details outside the riverlands because only the Riverlands is even remotely fulfilling content wise
But also, the entire premise of "who is this for" depends on people's attitude towards their own time and their existence in the game. If you want to see fast progress (i.e. 2h/day-max people seeing progress) no matter your content preference - this definitely will not be that game, no matter what Steven has said in the past.
If you play the game just to enjoy the gameplay itself, especially in the company of other people - this can definitely be that, once Intrepid actually start putting content into the game.
Back when I was a kid myself, playing L2, majority of my circle played in the PC cafes and not from home. So even though we were young, our gameplay time was AT MAX 4h a day. We still loved the game to bits. And L2 was waaaaaaaaay grindier than Ashes will ever be.
Then later on, when I started playing from home, I played with adults with families, jobs and responsibilities. All of them also only played for 3-4h/d maximum. All of them loved the game and benefited from the younger guildmates who could play much longer.
And we all loved the game because we simply loved the gameplay of "grind mobs > someone comes to your spot to do the same > you fight for the spot > loser comes back a few times in hopes of retaking the spot > one side gives up > you grind mobs > rinse repeat > bi-weekly sieges". Ashes promises so much more content than that AND in a supposedly prettier package and better combat (to me that's arguable, but whatever).
In other words, the game is for people who are content with just enjoying the game for what it is and progressing at their own pace. All the old millenials who have now grown up but still want to "dominate" in mmos are just delusional, greedy and self-centered as fuck. I fucking bet they would've flamed any older people from back in the day, if those asked for "a game that respects your time".
Hell, WoW was shat on sooo much in my circles exactly because it was a game for babies and housewives, both with its art style and its gameplay design. And things have only gone downhill from there since then.
In fact it doesn't matter if Intrepid would genuinely add gameplay worth player time on the top of the current core gameplay. Majority of players who would buy the game are going to disappear from the game before they even engage with those hypothetical systems. The lack of sense of genuine progression thanks to how grindy everything is is just going to burn people out or they will lose interest.
For me the current trend with grind levels in the game say one thing, Intrepid has no idea how to keep players playing so they fall back on the grind to act as content. This won't work. The ratio between actual gameplay and grind is just terrible, even if we include features Intrepid intends to deliver.
Blown past falling sands…
Look it from the bright side -
Until the game release - we will be old men taking pension, with all the time in the world to play and grind our way to victory
Cause quests will supposedly come with social orgs and just in general will be added later on. Raids will be added later on, because they require a ton of AI and mob design work - both of which require server stability (also, quite likely Harbingers will have a fair bit of that). Minigames would probably be the last ones to be added cause, effectively, they're just visuals for artisanry (that is if they even add them in the end). Lore will also be the last thing, if not even on release because it's just text.
So, what exactly is actual gameplay that you're asking for?
The development of this game is incredibly inefficient in relation to the experience an individual player will have.
This is just another of those things.
If the bulk of quest content is based around social organizations, that means Intrepid need to develop what would be considered"enough" of this content to keep players that enjoy it satisfied - for each social organization.
That means if you have three social organizations, you need to make three times the quest content - yet a character will still only see one third of that.
The reality of what will happen though, is that social organizations will seem pointless, empty and offer very little content, because developer resources are being spread too thin.
In other words, this:
Might be very true.
The real question is - how much of Social Organization content will rely on the crate system?
This is the real issue. The progression paths are not in sync. You level your character so quickly but everything else slow. So by day 2 or 3 you are no longer progressing your main protagonist but are instead enslaved to a settlement, guild, or items/gear. This is a flawed design imo, your character should be the main focus in an mmorpg, if it becomes something else than I don't feel it's an 'rpg' anymore, it's more a work simulator with classes.
I don't think this is intended. This was something they addressed in the Sept stream, and I think it just takes time to correct it. But it does feel like they aren't focusing on it.
The AI needs some real work. The mob spawns are dull, and annoying. Anvils is full of killer birds that attack right out of spawn... Mobs path of fences, builds, and other assets. It's boring to kill them. So mobs make sense for them to be that dumb, others need to have some level of greater intelligence. Lots of mmos have this problem, but these mobs feel really bad.
This is about progression again. Players will progress at different rates. So how do you balance between the players that play 40+ hours a week, and those that 8 hours a week? You can't make them even. Other games sell p2w powers. And in a way that works. I wouldn't play them. It is a way to balance the game between those who have less time. No I'm not advocating for p2w, just stating this problem is what leads people to pay for power, exploits, rmt, ect.
The answer is a even progression table between character level, gearing, settlement progression, guild progression, religion progression and any other progression sinks. Right now that's not balanced, and can't be, too much is bugged or missing. Which is why I stay out of the production server, it's just not ready to be tested like that. Trying to run a live service in active development is probably distracting them and slowing them down. They're patching ("fixing") issues for the live service production server when they should be focusing on developing more features and getting those features tested in the PTR. Production is useful it bring people in so they can test network stuff, but fuck man it's just not fun to be in there. You couldn't pay me to test in the production realm. And that's fine, it doesn't mean the game is going to be bad, it just means testing isn't fun.
No idea yet. I like the grind, I don't mind if it takes the average player 3 months to get to max. I'd prefer it. But the characters, classes, world, well everything will need more depth to support such a long progression path. Right now it doesn't. So they keep the leveling progression speed and just speed up all the other progression paths such as artisan, guilds, settlements, and so on. Then the game will be a normal run of the mill high speed mmo, that has stuff to do like trade packs, or fishing, or caravans, for the average player, then seiges and wars for the more hard core players. But without the depth even those rides are going to get stale.
I try not to just Ashes release by it's current state. Sure we can say it's on the wrong path for this reason or that, but we really have little view into what the plan is so it's a mute point. Best I can say is stay off the production realm until it's in a better state. Traditionally beta all the features should be in and they should start balancing and working out the majority of the bugs then.
I have time to sit around playing video games 8+ hours a day if I chose to, I would not play and do not play the production realm at all. It's not fun, I simply have other things to do that are fun. And I'm not saying the game will be unfun, but the health of the production is canary in the coal mine for them. If the production realm has people on it enjoying themselves then they are on the right track, if not, well then something is wrong. So if you feel something is gravely wrong the way to send a warning is stop logging into the production realm. And of course make posts like this one, for all the good they do.
I love what Sid Meier said about games. Games are fun because they are a series of "interesting decisions," meaning games are built on choices with tradeoffs, persistence, and long-term impact. These decisions should be engaging, offering a variety of experiences like risk versus reward or short-term versus long-term goals, and should encourage creativity rather than just following a predetermined path. I would go further and say I expect this also from more fast-paced games I enjoy. Interesting decisions don't have to imply strategy games. This can equally apply to fast paced games. Should I dodge, block or attack? All depends on a situation? Hitting resource nodes tied to a pseudorandom number generator (I'm ignoring static rarity) for 100s of hours has less appeal than some mobile games these days.
What is the most concerning for me, is how many currently available game systems lead to that extremely boring experience. Do you want to progress your gear? Grind dumb mobs and/or resource nodes. Do you want to progress your citizenship? Ditto Do you want to run a crate or caravan? Well surprise, surprise...ditto.
PvE and pve side of the sandbox experience is simply not fun, and barely masquerades the fact you are making a number go up....very, very, slowly. There is NO real variety in gameplay, and what interesting gameplay is to be had, is being gatekept / hidden behind those worst aspects.
I'm not saying that the game shouldn't have gathering or mob grinding in the game, those aspects CAN be enjoyable to some degree, but the ratio between those activities and more complex gameplay experience is out whack.
Engaging gameplay, please? Playstyle variety? Gear which is enabler of gameplay / different playstyles, instead gearing up being the core gameplay loop? More engaging methods (plural) of obtaining crafting materials? Even if this will never beat human behaviour, more varied mob behaviours?
Blown past falling sands…
Jump puzzles rely heavily on proper environment design and so far we're only getting basic "does the geodata in this spot work? do mobs move around said geodata correctly?" stuff, so jump puzzles will come later as well.
Gathering minigames that would vary up the gameplay might come later. Pylons are not in, so you can't interact with gatherables in a different way yet. Kinda same for processing and crafting.
Crafting itself is barely implemented. Well, unless they've completely gone away from the previously stated design of "use this material to get this result".
And w/o that crafting design it'd be real difficult to properly add mob/pvp interactions of attack types/elements, especially if you try to avoid creating a super strict meta.
I doubt that quests will magically replace crates' money multiplying value, so crate running will still most likely be the way to progress yourself faster. But even if quests DO accomplish that - they'll be added later on, because they require a ton of other parts of the game working well together.
Story arcs are meant to be the "choices and consequences" thing, so we'll see how well the Harbingers stuff works out (I predict very poorly).
But ultimately, in a free economy, money will always be the endgoal. And getting money in mmos usually means farming mobs, in one way or the other. Crates/caravans are just a multiplier on that action, so mobs will still be THE content to do.
Stuff like the highwaymen and BH systems MIGHT add some better interactions into the crate/caravan stuff, but at this point I highly doubt they will, cause so far I do not see Steven ever going for a deeper more interesting pvp design than "ddduuuuh, you have a pvp zone - go pvp". And all the "pvpers" will only ever ask for pvp zones because they want to murder people for free, so it's not like Steven ever hears any other kind of feedback (and obviously he doesn't listen to non-pvpers, so he'll never hear us).
Outside of all of those things, I'm still not sure what "engaging gameplay" is. Can you give an example from another game? This would be useful for both me and the poor poor Intrepid GM that's gonna report on this thread to the other devs, where it'll get completely ignored by Steven
All of it lol 🤣🤣
The Problem is, that this turns into a Job where You can "hire" another Person ("Player") to silently farm these Mobs then for Money while you do something else.
( I am aware most People don't have such a Person. )
Three Times guessing is the Charme, Guys. What do You think will happen if "AFK-Fishing" also gives tiny Amounts of EXP ?
I think i can safely say that if AFK-Fishing gives more EXP than Zero - that we will see AFK-Fishing Characters will stand around for "MONTHS" on End - so that the People who own them, have lesser of a pain in the Ass to go through.
I can't see this Game succeed if you can't change what you are doing like you can do in for Example Worst of Warcraft - because if People will be stuck for H.U.N.D.R.E.D.S. O.F. H.O.U.R.S. or so, using their Buttons only to endlessly kill the very same Mobs again and again and again,
then this becomes a very Soul- and Brain-crushing kind of Event. Not something many People are willing to put with anymore - - - including me.
I mean, as cool as for Example the Anime and Manga "Goblin Slayer" is - > i think after standing in Place A.) or B.) or C.) for Two to Six Hours like every - single - Day - for Weeks and Weeks on end,
then You have simply enough of it. And not in the good kind of way.
I haven't even tried Items Creation Artisanship yet - and that sounds like a hoooooooorribly dull and painful Experience.
I think i managed only to get my Axe to chop Wood levelled up once. From Novice to Apprentice. But that was it. I never even managed to get one to mine anything higher than the lowest Materials.
I remember when it was a Struggle - and in a GOOD KIND OF WAY - to gather Materials in WoW Vanilla, to create the first "Epic Items" which were absolute Crap compared to Molten Core or Blackwing Lair Epics,
but were definitely as good or a tiny bit better than "blue Items" - and then you could ask Guilds to take You with them into a Raid once they deemed your Item Strength good enough.
This is exactly what forced me to give up at a tiny little bit beyond LvL 11 in Phase 1.
I am just getting too old for this. In my early Twenties this wouldn't have been a Problem i think. But now i am Fourty Years old and i just can't see why i would ever need to waste my Reallife Hours for this. It makes no Sense to me to do this, when People can easily program other ways of levelling into a Game which are actually Fun to engage in and not a soul-crushing Meatgrinder.
Not wanting to anger Sir Steven,
b~uuuuut i had the Impression for a long Time that Sir Steven aims for an Audience between Twenty and Fourty Years of Age.
But it looks like the Audience which plays such MMO Games does only get older and older. Most Players will proooooobably be around my Age of even higher - like for Example dear Peon/HiddenDaggerInn.
How many People around 40 Years or at least above 34 to 35 Years are still willing to engage into Hours of Hours of Hours of soul-less bashing in the Ripcages and Heads of the same Mobs over and over again ?
This doesn't feel like Content they should pay a monthly subscription for.
This feels more like Content THEY should be the Ones who get paid for.
WORD !!!!!!!
This will be 100% sure a Success-Killer.
We both see the exactly same thing, i think.
Around 2000 to 2010 or maybe a bit above 2010 -> i think this kind of grindy Game would have still sold pretty well and People would have loved to engage into Season-long Genocides of NPC-Populations (lol),
but now ?
It's not just my Impression that Players don't have that much Time anymore, have they ?
Plus the fact that all of us get only older and older and apparently not so many younger Players are following up into such "old School MMO Battles" - also seems to play a Factor here.
While it is still Worlds above-better than the "modern Audience" (LOL) which lets Games like Veilguard, Concord - and a few other cursed Names fail like nothing else ever recorded in Video Game History.
this Audience of "super-duper-hyper-hardcore Grind-Devils of endless NPC Genocide" will not be enough to sustain an MMO - i think.
And since Sir Steven had poured to immensely much Time and Money into the Game - i personally also hope it will not fail but succeed. But as long as the Game will be like the endless Grind-Experience from Phase 1 until now - it will be doomed.
Absolutely doomed. This - > should be prevented.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
Guess what? I cannot be bothered to gather all those resources and bring those to our guild processors and crafters. Why? Thanks to how badly the warehousing and personal storage works, I would have to make space in a specific storage, as mats are all spread out across different nodes. My storage is full of stuff I know Im going to need or our guild needs. Constant annoying storage wars. This isn't what I play games for.
All I'm trying to do is transport and process the things I need for ONE finished item. This is all frustrating, extremely time consuming and just not fun. The whole game economy and logistics situation is the worst has ever been, and is just...unhinged. I won't call it otherwise, in case people get upset about outcome of their work.
I cannot even think about gathering resources to repeat this process for ALTERNATIVE weapons, which I would like to provide me with some playstyle variety, and most importantly armour.
Blown past falling sands…
This is one of the most pointed comment that speaks to allot. We were promised many paths for leveling. On the wiki under casual players their was promise there would be paths even casuals could do that would not be as optimal as other options. Every time I played, its just grinding. It was nice crafting got an exp boost but crafting is not fun
I think i understand. WHYYYYY for the Love of Verra, would someone want to have something either resembling or BEING - REALLIFE-FRUSTRATION - inside a Video Game ?
It just makes no Sense for me.
"Testing" a Game must make Sense. Not throw me into an endlessly deep pit of Frustration. We do not even get to keep anything from the Alpha 2, right ? Our Characters will be wiped/resetted one last Time before/during Launch anyway.
I love supporting Ashes of Creation somewhat - but i am not an immortal Being which has endless Time to give. At some Point i must pull the ripcord and can only watch and wait from afar.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".
My parachute didn't deploy...
Blown past falling sands…
* Falling into a deep, dark chasm *
" AAAAAAAAAA~aaaaaaaaaa~hhhhhh ... ... "
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
I am in the guildless Guild so to say, lol. But i won't give up. I will find my fitting Guild "one Day".