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Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Tanking Challenges: The Burden of XP Debt, Repair Costs, and Glint Loss
Orijin
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
[TL;DR]
As a level 21 tank, I find tanking particularly punishing due to the unique XP debt, armor repair costs, and the 25% loss of materials upon death. These factors hit tanks harder than other roles since we’re on the frontlines and die more frequently. Additionally, AoC’s group composition, allowing eight players but typically only requiring one tank, may reduce the demand for tanks.
I’m concerned that these combined factors might decrease the appeal of the tank role. Has anyone else felt this? Should XP debt and material loss be shared among group members to distribute penalties more fairly? Or should we reduce or remove these penalties if a Cleric resurrects the tank? I’d love to hear the community’s thoughts on this.
PS: Amusingly, I came across this post from a cleric who mentions similar concerns about the challenges for tanks: A Cleric’s Suggestion on Tanks. Additionally, HiruxArai also raised some great points on the lack of incentives for tanks, including ideas on reducing penalties if resurrected by a Cleric: HiruxArai’s Post on Tank Incentives. I also found a reddit's post talking about it : Current huge disincentive to playing tank.
It’s interesting to see this issue recognized across different roles. Looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts!
Edit1: Added mention of the 25% material loss on death, which further increases the financial burden on tanks.
Edit2: Added HiruxArai's suggestion to reduce or remove penalties if resurrected by a Cleric.
Edit 3: Added a reddit post talking about it (i'm not the OP)
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As a level 21 tank currently exploring Ashes of Creation in its Alpha 2 phase, I wanted to share specific challenges I’ve encountered with this archetype. While tanks are often considered a cornerstone of group dynamics in most MMOs, certain mechanics in AoC make tanking feel uniquely punishing.
Individual XP Debt and High Armor Repair Costs
In AoC, as in many MMOs, the tank role depends heavily on teamwork. However, what sets AoC apart is the individual XP debt and armor repair costs that impact tanks more severely due to their frontline role and high damage intake.
While I have no problem accepting punishment for my own mistakes, if a tank’s death results from another player’s error—such as unexpected DPS aggro or a lapse in healing—the tank alone bears a steep personal penalty, making each group failure especially costly.
Sometimes, the entire group might wipe, but in my experience, the tank often dies first, leaving DPS to kite enemies while the healer resurrects the tank, who then picks up aggro and allows the group's XP grind to continue, leaving only the tank with the XP debt to recover from.
Reduced Demand for Tanks Due to Group Composition
Another factor that might affect the appeal of the tank role in AoC is the unique 8-player group structure. While most traditional MMOs with smaller groups of 4 players include one tank, one healer, and multiple DPS roles, AoC’s larger group composition often includes just one tank while relying more heavily on DPS and healers.
This composition reduces the frequency of tank demand, which may further discourage players from taking on the role, especially with the additional XP debt and repair burdens.
Potential Solution: Shared XP Debt Among Group Members
While I understand that tanks are usually in high demand in MMOs and that AoC’s group composition could help balance this, I worry that the increased XP debt burden on tanks might have the opposite effect, discouraging players from stepping into this role.
One possible solution could be to share XP debt among group members. Since XP gains are already shared within the group, sharing the XP debt would distribute the cost of group mistakes more fairly, making tanking less punishing and encouraging more players to consider this essential role.
What Do You Think?
I’m curious to hear if other players feel similarly. Should AoC consider adjusting the XP debt mechanic to make it fairer for tanks, or perhaps even share it among group members? Are there other ideas the community might have to make the tank role more balanced and appealing? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
As a level 21 tank, I find tanking particularly punishing due to the unique XP debt, armor repair costs, and the 25% loss of materials upon death. These factors hit tanks harder than other roles since we’re on the frontlines and die more frequently. Additionally, AoC’s group composition, allowing eight players but typically only requiring one tank, may reduce the demand for tanks.
I’m concerned that these combined factors might decrease the appeal of the tank role. Has anyone else felt this? Should XP debt and material loss be shared among group members to distribute penalties more fairly? Or should we reduce or remove these penalties if a Cleric resurrects the tank? I’d love to hear the community’s thoughts on this.
PS: Amusingly, I came across this post from a cleric who mentions similar concerns about the challenges for tanks: A Cleric’s Suggestion on Tanks. Additionally, HiruxArai also raised some great points on the lack of incentives for tanks, including ideas on reducing penalties if resurrected by a Cleric: HiruxArai’s Post on Tank Incentives. I also found a reddit's post talking about it : Current huge disincentive to playing tank.
It’s interesting to see this issue recognized across different roles. Looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts!
Edit1: Added mention of the 25% material loss on death, which further increases the financial burden on tanks.
Edit2: Added HiruxArai's suggestion to reduce or remove penalties if resurrected by a Cleric.
Edit 3: Added a reddit post talking about it (i'm not the OP)
--
As a level 21 tank currently exploring Ashes of Creation in its Alpha 2 phase, I wanted to share specific challenges I’ve encountered with this archetype. While tanks are often considered a cornerstone of group dynamics in most MMOs, certain mechanics in AoC make tanking feel uniquely punishing.
Individual XP Debt and High Armor Repair Costs
In AoC, as in many MMOs, the tank role depends heavily on teamwork. However, what sets AoC apart is the individual XP debt and armor repair costs that impact tanks more severely due to their frontline role and high damage intake.
While I have no problem accepting punishment for my own mistakes, if a tank’s death results from another player’s error—such as unexpected DPS aggro or a lapse in healing—the tank alone bears a steep personal penalty, making each group failure especially costly.
Sometimes, the entire group might wipe, but in my experience, the tank often dies first, leaving DPS to kite enemies while the healer resurrects the tank, who then picks up aggro and allows the group's XP grind to continue, leaving only the tank with the XP debt to recover from.
Reduced Demand for Tanks Due to Group Composition
Another factor that might affect the appeal of the tank role in AoC is the unique 8-player group structure. While most traditional MMOs with smaller groups of 4 players include one tank, one healer, and multiple DPS roles, AoC’s larger group composition often includes just one tank while relying more heavily on DPS and healers.
This composition reduces the frequency of tank demand, which may further discourage players from taking on the role, especially with the additional XP debt and repair burdens.
Potential Solution: Shared XP Debt Among Group Members
While I understand that tanks are usually in high demand in MMOs and that AoC’s group composition could help balance this, I worry that the increased XP debt burden on tanks might have the opposite effect, discouraging players from stepping into this role.
One possible solution could be to share XP debt among group members. Since XP gains are already shared within the group, sharing the XP debt would distribute the cost of group mistakes more fairly, making tanking less punishing and encouraging more players to consider this essential role.
What Do You Think?
I’m curious to hear if other players feel similarly. Should AoC consider adjusting the XP debt mechanic to make it fairer for tanks, or perhaps even share it among group members? Are there other ideas the community might have to make the tank role more balanced and appealing? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
3
Comments
Demand for tanks is always at an all time high whenever I've been on (Which is all the time)
Yes tank repairs are expensive and XP debt sucks too. Caster also get one shotted by random stuff more often than not, specially in random parties.
That's interesting you mention kiting, as that was another point I initially wanted to discuss. In Ashes of Creation, kiting might be a good tactic to avoid dying, but it feels discouraged in party settings. The reason is that AoC relies heavily on ground-targeted area buffs and debuffs, which often have significant effects. When you’re forced to kite, it’s easy to miss out on these, reducing their overall impact on combat.
That hasn’t been my experience, though I think demand likely varies by server and time of day. It’s good to hear that demand is higher for you, but I haven’t consistently seen this myself.
I understand what you're saying—DPS players do sometimes die unexpectedly. However, my point is that tanks generally die more often than DPS and healers, especially in group settings. This means that tanks carry a heavier XP debt over time compared to other roles, which can feel like an additional burden without any added benefits to offset it.
This convo reminded me that, on top of repair costs, I also end up taking home less Glint since 25% is lost on each death. This essentially leaves tanks with higher costs and lower income compared to DPS classes.
Would be interested to hear if others are experiencing similar challenges or have different perspectives on tanking in AoC, especially around kiting, group demand, and XP debt.
I completely agree. I’ve experienced this firsthand, and you worded it better than I could.
Reducing or removing the XP debt and durability loss when a Cleric resurrects the tank is an excellent idea. This change alone could make the tank role far more attractive.
I agree that spreading XP debt across the party is a bold suggestion. This shift would emphasize teamwork and mutual responsibility, fitting well with AoC’s risk vs. reward philosophy. Additionally, it might be worth adjusting the 25% Glint loss on death specifically for tanks, either by reducing it or sharing it among the group. This would help balance the financial strain that tanks face compared to DPS roles.
All in all, it’s great to hear everyone’s thoughts on this. So far, we have two solid suggestions to address the problem, and I wonder if there are other ideas out there ?
you shouldn't be grinding with a lot of material or your asking to get upset with this system. losing glint however i understand, i lost 3k glint last weekend in 10 minutes from mistakes and bugs.. it hurt. as far as everything else..... if youre tanking stuff in your level range and gear capabilities you dont die too often. if youre like me and my group, you're pushing harder content for more rewards. hence risk/reward system. so i dont think it needs to be changed. however i love the idea of being rez'd reducing the loss!
this is a very risk/reward game. When tanking the harder content and the tank goes down, you can be sure half if not all the party is as well. so its a good system in my mind. but again, reducing the penalties when rez'd would be a fantastic patch to help the burden tanks seem to feel when at low levels
A big improvement would be reducing the spike in incoming damage. Also, mobs like Blood Blades have ground effects that you’re supposed to dodge, but the only visual cue for the ability, aside from a cast bar that’s only visible on one mob at a time, is the effect on the ground. In a group, the spell effects from your team often make it impossible to see anything on the ground. This means that if you pull more than one Blood Blade, it becomes a bit of a dice roll whether you survive or not. Fixing stuff like this would make it less likely to die due to bad luck as a tank
I left a suggestion for friendly spell effect sliders for opacity or something because the mages lava field spell effect was completely blocking me from seeing the poison clouds from goblin shamans. Also, I lose my cursor a lot when there's 50,000 spell effects. Sorry casters, but I would turn most of your spell effects off if I could.
It's gotta be something. I grouped for about 6 hours tonight, got two levels, we ran around seph and steelbloom, having never been to either location. Found some great farming spots, had plenty of gear drop for people. But, as I was tanking and I had to figure out all the mechanics up close and personal, and try to pick up random mobs people asspulled, and all the other tankly things we do... I died close to 20 times. I mean, the nearly half a level of EXP debt aside, and me falling behind my peers was one thing, but I literally had to beg them for silver to pay my repair bills. I ended the night with negative income
I mean, humanoid mobs NEVER having money on them doesn't really make sense... Maybe there should be 50/50 coin drops and glint from humanoids. I mean give me SOMETHING to go home with. Sure, wolves 100% glint, but random raiders should have a few coins so at least when I die doing my job I'll be able to repair...
I agree to some extent.
Tanks get punished most. They typically die the most, so end up falling behind in EXP gain compared to the rest of their group. Which will discourage players from playing tanks and lead to a population imbalance.
(% numbers are just hypothetical suggestions)
Something in the Tanks kit needs to mitigate XP Debt for them and preferably the rest of the group. Something like courage/defense stance %50* reduction in personal XPdebt and %25* group reduction XPdebt under tanks 'protection' and only takes effect when in a group.
I also agree that a cleric rez should restore XPdebt by an additional %25*
in PVE a player own body recovery should also restore some XP debt and I feel that there should be a death grace period (2min) for example for the player to take the time to return to their dropped loot without concern of loss or time waste making the return trip from an Ember spring.
If another player chooses to look at the ash pile during that 2 min it will flag PVP if another player then decides to steal the items it will cause corruption.
I also believe guilds should take a % of all members XPdebt, This will curb mega guilds from forming while also incentivize Guild leaders to pick and choose the members with more scrutiny.
Those of some of the ideas I have in regards to making XP debt actually promote healthy interactions rather than punish players to the point of losing interest.
equipment damaged on death remains unchanged.
So to summertime the XPDebt situation needs to be tailored/adjusted to promote healthy gameplay. Because its current implementation is overwhelmingly unsatisfying and losing player retention/motivation.
This is not a good solution. The game should not be designed that you have to play with no effects in order to see mechanics. The system needs tweaked so that you can play with the game looking like it is meant to, and still be able to actually see what is going on.
To be fair you're not wrong, but I also just want to turn off most spell effects because after 6 hours grinding and having all the spell effects going off, my eyes are tired and I'm overwhelmed by all the sound effects going off too...
I am in favour of a reduction in the XP penalty for resurrection by a cleric, but without the XP penalty, death loses too much of its meaning.
I fully agree that XP debts should be shared in a group, but there needs to be a mechanism in place to prevent abuse of the system, e.g. the other players in the group can at most reduce the debt by the amount they would lose at their level.
The Reddit thread discusses the challenges of playing as a tank. The OP highlights that tanks are often the first to die in group play, especially if party members make mistakes, leading to material and glint loss. This creates a financial and progression disincentive for tank players and could result in a shortage of tanks in the long run.
Problems Discussed:
I think you raise a solid point about maintaining the weight of death in gameplay. A reduced penalty for Cleric-assisted resurrections strikes a good balance between rewarding teamwork and preserving the consequences of death. Perhaps scaling the reduction based on group dynamics or the Cleric's level could add another layer of depth ?
Glory to Arioch
Glory to Winsted
For my mana addicted brothers:
For the Glory of Quel'Thalas
Replying and raising awareness is enough, no worries. I’m curious—what specifically do you think might make a solution unfair? For instance, would reducing or removing penalties if a Cleric resurrects the tank fall into that category?
Either way, I really don't think giving tanks a special discount on dying is the solution, but I very much like the idea of shared exp debt with the group for the tank. Even if its a percentage.
A bit off topic, but I would say another issue with the tank is that every ability causing agro is self-harming when it comes to PvP. Any of your cleaving abilities or AoE abilities when you have someone trains mobs on you, you pick up and are now having to fight off along with the PvP. Not sure how to solve this aside from stop using half of your abilities in those situations. Either way, I found it frustrating and worth adding to the "Burden of Tanks"
I ended up shying away from groups for a while in part because I just didn't have the money to afford repair costs while pugging, and in part because so many people were rolling on gear that could help keep me alive and help the party be more effective. It was just unrewarding to work hard to keep 2-3 mobs of 3-stars pulled at all times while watching their bars for interrupts and trying to be a good tank, then be devalued by the group through gear rolls.
Things got a lot better after I joined a guild that chose to emphasize gearing tanks first, and in general the group was better organized and less likely to overpull or do stupid stuff that would get me killed while they ran away.
So many of the mechanics in this game seem too new for many of us who are coming from previous MMOs. This could be one of those problems that just needs some time to brew while the community adjusts by adopting social norms informed by the mechanics.
Despite my negative experience I'd leave it as is for a while and see how the community adjusts before asking for a change.
I just hit level 20 as a tank, and there are just VAST differences in skill level. I don't know if it's because people are used to easily facerolling enemies in modern MMOs or what, but the expectations on pace, and what's reasonable to do is just ... it's not there yet.
Examples:
Some guy joins the group, comments "we could easily take 4 of these," then immediately runs off and pulls four mobs back to camp that put out a ground effect explosion that basically one shots people. Then they get upset and leave. Whelp... what were they expecting?
Some guy joins the group then complains loudly about my ability to hold aggro. It's an agro drop mechanic my dude.
Some guy joins the group and doesn't understand that some skills target a person other than top threat, and them taking damage does NOT mean they have aggro, so they DONT need to roll away directly into a nearby pack... on three different occasions.
Some guy joins the group and uses lightning ball and pulls every goblin in existance... multiple times.
Like on the one hand, I feel like I should be able to say "watch AOE" and that's communicating something to my group. But on the other hand... maybe there's just a LOT of people who have never played an MMO that expected them to think. I do feel like eventually people will figure out the nuance but holy SHIT is it frustrating as a tank to have to wade through the masses to finally find the people who aren't gonna give you an aneurysm.
In my hundreds of years in playing online games (yes, I'm old.. and have been playing video games since before the internet was a "thing", telnet muds, all the way up to today's pc and console ones.. I'm not prejudiced, lol)..
There is a few underlying issues resulting in the OPs main concerns, but the one that stood out to make me reply was...
XP death for being tank in group: problem solved by making rez's from players, NOT give the penalty.
Tanks being useless in the future: At the current state, and hopefully for future revisions... as long as tanks stay tank-y, and thier taunts are actually functional (most games break that).. then the rest of the group can be as glass cannon-y as the game wants, and Tanks will still have a job in major group battles or against multiple mobs.
Overall, there is still a lot of balancing to do, the bigger concern about tank usefulness should be around future updates to other classes and/or gear combos. if a class can tank (aka, not get hit by anything, but still keep agro) .. then everything falls apart.
Side Note, more on PvP side: The best (multiplayer) games I have played, all have one "golden rule" in common. Everything has an Achilles heel,. ie. Casters kill tank -> Tank eats Rogue -> Rogue 1-shots Casters (but nothing else). This is just a simple example, of course.. but, similar principles can be applied to games containing more than 3 classes, and even more complex with it comes to hybrid classes like this one plans.
~Shagz
I don't agree that tank demand is at an all time high. It seems fairly evenly split among tanks, clerics and bards. Lowered repair costs would be huge. Alternatively, a small xp bonus (2-5%) when in group settings counteract the xp debt but reward players for doing less damage in group settings but being the main support/necessary classes for group activities.
-Doakland
Tanking has been like this for a while. Tanks normally get hit with heavier cost. This led many to charge fees, or be more picking about the groups they're going to tank for. You won't see this in games like FFXIV or T&L, but classic WoW and older games that have party content that's takes some tactic to actually succussed have had it.
Ashes's lack of instanced content is a big problem for the party PvE. Having challenging content is going to be hard to do. There's a zerg meta, even if you're having an issue you can have some extra healers on standby to keep the tank up. Instant content is the only way to create balanced party content. Since Ashes isn't focusing on it you're rule as a tank is in PvE is limited to it's usefulness during leveling. After that there will be some raid style encounters, but how many tanks are really needed for that? Then your usefulness in PvP, it's too early to tell how useful tanks will be in PvP, still waiting on archtypes.
To answer your questions directly.
No adjusting the XP debt for tanks, it's fair as it is, be more careful and choose you're party carefully. Games not a game yet so it'll get better.
No shared XP debt, no shared repair costs.
My solutions:
1. Player repair shops/kiosks aren't in yet, that could ease that cost. Otherwise run more packs/caravans. Rotate through the rides the game has so far. Equipment shouldn't degrade on death, degrade on use/abuse.
2. XP debt. Cleric XP debt forgiveness. Being resurrected should negate some/half/most/all of the XP debt. This could scale with the Clerics power. XP debt should only happen if killed by a mob, not in PvP. Need more PvP in the game as you level. I avoid PvP because of this until I'm maxed.
3. No material should be lost to the void. NonFlagged death = 50/50 keep vs drop. Flagged death = 75/25 keep vs drop.
4. Death penalty that scales. Dying repeatedly should punish you, I know you're saying it's rough now, but hear me out. If we cut down the XP debt with res, reduce repair bills with player shops, stop losing materails to the void. It'll be a better situation for everyone. But we dont' want people throwing themselves to the meat grinder over and over again. So implementing a scaling death penalty will help with that. First death, nothing, just a warning and a timer 15/30min. Second death, increased XP debt, more material starts to go to the void, death timer increased by 15/30min. Repeat up to 5 times increasing the XP debt and Material losses. On the 6th death start to take reduce stats. Cap the death penalty timer at 15 or 30 minutes. So death 1 you get a 15 minute timer, 5 minutes goes by and you die again, you add 15 minutes onto your 10minutes, and either cap it at 15, or cap it at 30. Good PvP balance mechanic too.