bloodprophet wrote: » There have been plenty of times I have on raids, dungeons or open world stuff to help guildies or friends knowing full well before I started I would get nothing more then a thank you and a repair bill. You?
Kleptix wrote: » My favorite loot system is Elder Scrolls Online - Everyone gets their own loot! Party members in dungeons / raids can trade or sell their loot to other party members that completed the content for up to an hour after completion. I have yet to find a more rewarding system than this.
Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers. The only determinant factors on getting loot should be: 1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died 2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way 3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc) These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason. The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race. If it is handled in this way, then hopefully all the items you get are tradable, otherwise you might end up getting something you didn't want or really wanted a friend to get/have and not being able to do anything about it. Nothing* in Ashes is intended to be soul bound, so yeah everyone can freely trade afterwards if they want to. Edit: *very few items might be but we haven’t seen any of them so far so I’m hoping they’ll stick with no BoP
Pham wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers. The only determinant factors on getting loot should be: 1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died 2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way 3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc) These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason. The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race. If it is handled in this way, then hopefully all the items you get are tradable, otherwise you might end up getting something you didn't want or really wanted a friend to get/have and not being able to do anything about it.
Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers. The only determinant factors on getting loot should be: 1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died 2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way 3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc) These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason. The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race.
Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers.
Pham wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Pham wrote: » The bottom line is, if a system can be abused, it will be - at some point. I don't know that there are any "abuse-proof" systems, in the strictest sense. I think the most correct thing that we know to do, currently, is just to punish the people who abuse the systems when it happens to discourage others from doing the same. For ex, a group that is comprised mostly of guild members but needed a few more randoms to join to fill out the group. They finish some piece of difficult content and then the group leader who is a member of the guild kicks all the non-guild members of the group so they don't get a piece of the loot they rightly earned. Now, there are mechanics and checks you can put in place to make this type of abuse less likely to happen, but it could fundamentally change how loot is distributed and not necessarily for the better. For ex, a system whereby loot is allowed to be needed/greeded on, even to people who get kicked from the party as long as they were in the party when the content was finished (boss downed, or w/e). But this could be abused as well. For ex, you have 3 party members who did nothing or went afk during the middle of the boss fight or even just before and the party leader is too busy to notice or to do anything about it in the heat of the moment and so they remain in the party until they are finished. Those 3 people arguably should not be privy to the loot since they didn't contribute (and this could be on purpose, mind you) but in the above proposed loot system "fix" it would still give them a roll at the loot even if they were kicked before loot was distributed. So, either way it can still be abused. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to make something that won't or can't be abused, but I don't think I have ever seen it. And just because I can't immediately think of a way to abuse it doesn't mean there isn't a way or that someone else won't find one either. So.. back to my original thought about catching and punishing abusers. The only determinant factors on getting loot should be: 1) were you in the group that won looting rights at the time the boss died 2) did you contribute to the fight in a meaningful way 3) do you have advancements in the Gathering profession that this boss would fall under (hunter for a beast, miner for a golem etc) These are all things the game knows, and regarding point 2, players are actually barred from knowing that information because Steven won’t allow combat metrics logging in any capacity for some reason. The only way to handle loot in a truly fair way is to have the game allocate it based on specific developer-established criteria, and to have enough non-gear loot in the form of recipes and craft mats drop that it always feels rewarding to be a part of the group that won the dps race. If it is handled in this way, then hopefully all the items you get are tradable, otherwise you might end up getting something you didn't want or really wanted a friend to get/have and not being able to do anything about it. Nothing* in Ashes is intended to be soul bound, so yeah everyone can freely trade afterwards if they want to. Edit: *very few items might be but we haven’t seen any of them so far so I’m hoping they’ll stick with no BoP What about glint? Is that planned to be tradable at some point? If so, can you point me to where that was stated?
bloodprophet wrote: » Me,me,me,me,me,me...... That's all this thread is? A rising tide lifts all ships. When people on the TEAM become stronger the whole team becomes stronger. Is amazing how self centered some of you are. Someone on my team got something and I didn't Whaaaaaa!! Learn to celebrate your friends and team mates victories. Get it next time or maybe the time after. This is supposed to be a multiplayer game not another single player game pretending to be an MMO.
Along the Need greed system it actually makes it hard to even think of helping solo players I know me and my friend WILL NOT Pick up solos for this reason they need on key piece of gear and one of our group suffers this is the WORST idea ive seen honestly it promotes not inviting new players to group activities and alienates solos looking for groups.
Yet another example of old school MMO players failing to understand that some of the more casual friendly design choices came about for good reassons. Need/Greed, especially in AOC's case, where gear goes to market, simply means he who needs, at all times, is basicly optimicing his play time.
The argument "but i can just buy the gear that was needed away" fails to notice that the person who will sell it to you is likely the same person who stole it from you. In effect you will get your gear either way, but a second party, one that maybe, didn't even contribute meaningfully to the success of your work, will get rewarded for toxic behavior. The money that person made from rolling need on an item he or she didn't need at all, will likely flow into improving his character. Therefor, the optimal behavior in a loot situation becomes, for all players, to always roll need, as you will win an improvement of your character regardless of rather or not the item in question is suitable for you.
A game like AoC also can't bank on the "social punishment" aspect, as the servers require such a huge population to even maintain playablility that the pool of people becomes to large to get everyone to outcast a singular person. Also, if a raid group gets one ninja looter, maybe they will post about him in global, ok, maybe 10 people get to read that, as global instantly gets flooded with other stuff and the message is drowned out. Of these 10 People maybe half care, and maybe half of those will remember that guys name after about 10 minutes. Social punishment was largely ineffective even back in the day, where a servers population maxed out at a couple hundred players. These days, with thouosands of players on the same server, a singel name get forgotten within minutes and large scale, long term consequences for their actions become basicly impossible. On the other hand, ninja looting is, apparently, something this community want to bring back "For fun" (Thats the excuse, we all know that some people just want to be a-holes and troll. Ninja looting is only "Fun" to them as long as it happens to others, the ninja looters were always to first to complain about it on the old forums too). Solution: A middle Ground then perhaps?
Armor Types. Cloth, Leather, Heavy. A role or specc can't roll need on armor the player can't wear.
So, Mage Armor can't be rolled away by a tank, but say, a summoner can steal it from a mage. Still frustrating, but the pool of potential ninja looters gets greatly reduced, so the chance you will get your item next time increases. Better to compete with, say 2 - 3 players, then with the whole raid. Ninja looting remains an option for people who enjoy shoving forks up their frontal lobe and normal people at least have a decent chance of getting their loot sooner or later. You basicly trade in total frustration for less frequent, less likely frustration. Seems to me that this is a solution that at least gets some friction reduced for modern MMO players, while the old school players still get to pretend they enjoy the bad design they mistake for "difficulty".
After playing Gorgon, which, by and large has been somehow more fun to play that Ashes testing despite looking cracked out of a 1990s time capsule, even more so I believe that the current Ashes loot setup is asking for failure.
Players need a carrot at the end of the stick, and nothing could ever feel worse than spending hours of your time on something difficult, then getting nothing for it.
Social consequences are never going to be meaningful, and they don't fix the damage already done to players that get screwed over by bad GMs and group leads. It teaches players to go it alone and not group up, to not help because there's no reward and probably only penalties unless you get lucky.
