Definition of casual, core and hardcore player is more complex today because so much has changed in past 20 years, for example. Thus, researchers have tried to find new ways to define players. Here is one definition model which might need a little bit chewing. Anyhow, according to this research most of the players can be consider as "casuals" who plays games more like a filler when they have time for that. Therefore, this audiance is reasonable to take into consideration as well.
Definition of casual, core and hardcore player is more complex today because so much has changed in past 20 years, for example. Thus, researchers have tried to find new ways to define players. Here is one definition model which might need a little bit chewing. Anyhow, according to this research most of the players can be consider as "casuals" who plays games more like a filler when they have time for that. Therefore, this audiance is reasonable to take into consideration as well.
I mean - those are definitions for gamers, rather than players.
Technically yes, however, both can be considered as a same thing in video game context. Anyway, this was just one research but at least it shows that things have changed and evolved and it is hard to use only definitions such as casuals or hardcore because there is so much more in that field nowadays.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2022
Not really.
Those gamer personas are meaningless in terms of helping me understand the playstyles of people I'm playing with in-game and who I'm likely to enjoy playing with in an MMORPG.
Not really.
Those gamer personas are meaningless in terms of helping me understand the playstyles of people I'm playing with in-game and who I'm likely to enjoy playing with in an MMORPG.
The point was not make you to understand the playstyles who you like to play with but rather show that it is today hard to categorize people only to casuals or hardcore. Different playstyles can be defined e.g. with help of Bartle's Taxonomy or something similar updated closer today. It would be interesting to find a research about player type distribution in video games and if it would be about MMORPG even better.
Don't even need a system for that, though.
Just do it. Feels good to help other people with donations. That's all the reward that's needed.
Pay it forward.
As much as I agree with this sentiment and will be doing just this in the game, I know for sure that the majority of people won't be doing this. Especially not for random people on the server. You might pass down your old gear to a trusted guild member, but distributing a ton of gear to a ton of people is something only the very generous and "those who RP a good guy" people would do - and those are a rarity.
A system like the one I suggested would just add motivation to sharing your stuff with others. Just like social structures will have rewards for climbing their ladder instead of just going "oh well, you can just go RP as a thief. I bet that's gonna be enough for you". Yes, pure RP would be enough for a few dozen people on the server, but everyone else wouldn't participate in that part of the game if there weren't augments and other potential rewards within the system.
It’s an interesting concept, @NiKr - how would you avoid cutting into the crafting market? Do any augments to the gear automatically disappear, or are they subject to the overall degradation %? Would donation be restricted to only other players (e.g. not alts)? Just within a guild? A node?
Don't even need a system for that, though.
Just do it. Feels good to help other people with donations. That's all the reward that's needed.
Pay it forward.
I was thinking for bound gear.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As much as I agree with this sentiment and will be doing just this in the game, I know for sure that the majority of people won't be doing this. Especially not for random people on the server. You might pass down your old gear to a trusted guild member, but distributing a ton of gear to a ton of people is something only the very generous and "those who RP a good guy" people would do - and those are a rarity.
A system like the one I suggested would just add motivation to sharing your stuff with others. Just like social structures will have rewards for climbing their ladder instead of just going "oh well, you can just go RP as a thief. I bet that's gonna be enough for you". Yes, pure RP would be enough for a few dozen people on the server, but everyone else wouldn't participate in that part of the game if there weren't augments and other potential rewards within the system.
It's not pure RP.
It might not be something that hardcore extremists do.
I dunno how actually passing the gear you've acquired to others equates with merely RPing theft. Especially within guilds.
I also don't understand the conncection between climbing the ladder of social structures and RPing a thief. Do you mean joining a Thieve's Guild Social Org?
Ashes doesn't have very much bound gear. "A lot of what we experienced in games that usually come before us is that many things are account bound and they're soulbound to your character... Instead very little here is character bound. Very very little. The vast majority of gear- yes you will get quest related gear as rewards- but it won't be let's say one set in one dungeon and you must run the dungeon over and over. Instead we want to really emphasize the reliance on the economy and crafters and gatherers and processors to support a majority of the gear structure in-game, combined with that of world raid bosses and dungeon bosses; not a repetitive quest line through a single dungeon."
---Steven 2018
"The vast majority of items that exist in the game are tradeable. There is no soul bound or bind on equip or bind on pick-up. The economy is built in a way that requires not only the deconstruction of items in order to continue to advance on the crafting side of things, but also the repair system for gear degradation is not some trivial, simple gold sink. They actually require a portion of raw and processed materials in order to repair certain types of items. So, in that regard, we wanna make sure that the economy is a closed system, but is not bound-dependent. It is open, so can be traded and sold."
---Steven 2020
It's not pure RP.
It might not be something that hardcore extremists do.
I dunno how actually passing the gear you've acquired to others equates with merely RPing theft. Especially within guilds.
I also don't understand the conncection between climbing the ladder of social structures and RPing a thief. Do you mean joining a Thieve's Guild Social Org?
Yes, the Thieves Guild was just given as an example to prove a point, it wasn't meant to be taken literally, as you often do.
And person who likes to RP could rp as a thief. The game could provide them with a "Thief" title and the RP player might be satisfied with just that, because they create their own gameplay on top of the tools the game provides. Or, well, at least that's what I've heard about how people RP in mmos. If your RPing is different, pls do explain the difference.
But Ashes doesn't just give you a title. It provides you benefits for participating in social orgs system. It gives you motivation to move through their ladder, because there's better benefits at the top of it. And the system I suggested would function in the same way. Of course there's pretty much no bound gear in the game, but what I suggested is not just giving a piece of gear to your mate. I suggested a system that would give out way more gear to way more people, while giving benefits to the players that provided said gear.
In my experiences of being a guild crafter of many years, you usually have waaaay more gear than what your guild requires. And that was in a game w/o an artisan profession system. From what I've seen in NW, people crafted fucking thousands of pieces of useless gear just to level up their professions. Roughly the same thing will happen in Ashes, but instead of just crafting low lvl shit to bump up your artisan XP, I suggested a system where you'd craft a good piece of gear that no one in your guild needs (because they're already overgeared or just don't require that particular piece) and you can then donate that piece to the overall gear donation system in exchange for some benefits to your character. The high lvl player benefits from this, the low lvl players benefit from it, there's no "came out of nowhere" gear acquisition mechanics that are usually tied to instanced content in mmos - as I see it, that's a win-win for all sides. And all the non-crafter players can still just buy gear from crafters/market and get their upgrades from their social org by donating that gear through the system (this would be on top of the standard planned rewards of the social org system).
As an x hardcore gamer who is now the director of a large web design company, with a wife and child, it's safe to say I no longer have the time I'd like to, to play games. This being said, I completely understand your sentiment (even if it was a bit too harsh) and honestly wouldn't expect Steven to compromise the game just because I have less time. Hell, if anything giving me a tougher game just makes the time I do get to play time well spent. Though I'd be sad if I didn't get to enjoy lategame content in the short-term, I'd just have to stick to it until I got there
I think something else worth noting is that the age of the audience has changed drastically and there has to be some level of understanding that a large portion of the mmo playerbase started gaming in their teens and are now 20-35 with real life commitments. This isn't an anomaly, this is THE NORM. I wouldn't want Steven to compromise any content for the sake of 'casuals' but it would be foolish for intrepid to not consider the enjoyment of players that have less time too. Remember, intrepid receive income from a monthly subscription, not the amount of hours a player spends on the game.
The best way for intrepid to ensure that the game is enjoyable for hxc/casual players is by making sure that low level content is enjoyable and that there is enough horizontal progression in the game. This is something that ALL players will appreciate regardless of the hours they spend and honestly I assume they are already way ahead of me on this one..
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes, the Thieves Guild was just given as an example to prove a point, it wasn't meant to be taken literally, as you often do.
LMAO
You didn't actually mention Thieves' Guild.
The Thieves' Guild is an actual Social Org; not RP. I didn't take what you said literally. I just tried to make sure I understood what you were trying to say.
But, I still don't know what RPing a thief has to do with actually donating gear.
I just have a clearer idea of what you meant by "climbing the ladder of social structures".
And person who likes to RP could rp as a thief. The game could provide them with a "Thief" title and the RP player might be satisfied with just that, because they create their own gameplay on top of the tools the game provides. Or, well, at least that's what I've heard about how people RP in mmos. If your RPing is different, pls do explain the difference.
I just don't understand what relevance this is supposed to have to the discussion.
I am a casual challenge, cooperative, socialist player rather than a hardcore challenge, competitive, capitalist player.
My donations have nothing to do with RP.
Make donations because you like helping others; not because the system gives you advantages due to donating.
But Ashes doesn't just give you a title. It provides you benefits for participating in social orgs system. It gives you motivation to move through their ladder, because there's better benefits at the top of it. And the system I suggested would function in the same way. Of course there's pretty much no bound gear in the game, but what I suggested is not just giving a piece of gear to your mate. I suggested a system that would give out way more gear to way more people, while giving benefits to the players that provided said gear.
The ironic thing here is that you are the one taking things literally while I am not.
I translate Thieves' Guild to be a Social Org for Rogues and Bards. A Rogue's Guild.
I'm not thinking about people in the Thieve's Guild stealing stuff and gaining the title of "Thief".
I'm not expecting people to rise through the ranks of the Thieves' Guild primarily via theft.
In my experiences of being a guild crafter of many years, you usually have waaaay more gear than what your guild requires. And that was in a game w/o an artisan profession system. From what I've seen in NW, people crafted fucking thousands of pieces of useless gear just to level up their professions. Roughly the same thing will happen in Ashes, but instead of just crafting low lvl shit to bump up your artisan XP, I suggested a system where you'd craft a good piece of gear that no one in your guild needs (because they're already overgeared or just don't require that particular piece) and you can then donate that piece to the overall gear donation system in exchange for some benefits to your character. The high lvl player benefits from this, the low lvl players benefit from it, there's no "came out of nowhere" gear acquisition mechanics that are usually tied to instanced content in mmos - as I see it, that's a win-win for all sides. And all the non-crafter players can still just buy gear from crafters/market and get their upgrades from their social org by donating that gear through the system (this would be on top of the standard planned rewards of the social org system).
I dunno what that means.
People tend to have more gear than they need. Individuals and guilds.
Which is why it's easy enough to donate excesss gear - especially within the guild/alliance.
And it's also easy enough to deconstruct or sell gear if you want to.
The mechanic for trading excess gear for upgrades is basically called Sales.
But, I'm pretty sure people will also be able to barter for upgrades without needing a "mechanic" for that.
LMAO
You didn't actually mention Thieves' Guild.
The Thieves' Guild is an actual Social Org; not RP. I didn't take what you said literally. I just tried to make sure I understood what you were trying to say.
But, I still don't know what RPing a thief has to do with actually donating gear.
I just have a clearer idea of what you meant by "climbing the ladder of social structures".
I thought the example of "go RP as a thief" in the context of "social structures" (yes, should've used Orgs instead of Structures) was obvious enough. Guess it wasn't, so I should've explained it better. My bad.
The example itself served as a functional parallel.
I just don't understand what relevance this is supposed to have to the discussion.
I am a casual challenge, cooperative, socialist player rather than a hardcore challenge, competitive, capitalist player.
My donations have nothing to do with RP.
Make donations because you like helping others; not because the system gives you advantages due to donating.
And I've already addressed this. Most people won't just share their gear with random people out of the pureness of their hearts. But if they have a benefit/motivation for doing so - they will. The parallel with the Thieves Guild was to say that most people don't RP as members of said guild, but because there's a benefit for doing so in Ashes - people will become a member to reap those benefits. Functionally, my suggested system works the same way. Most people wouldn't just give away their gear, but they are more likely to do so for some reward.
I dunno what that means.
People tend to have more gear than they need. Individuals and guilds.
Which is why it's easy enough to donate excesss gear - especially within the guild/alliance.
And it's also easy enough to deconstruct or sell gear if you want to.
The mechanic for trading excess gear for upgrades is basically called Sales.
But, I'm pretty sure people will also be able to barter for upgrades without needing a "mechanic" for that.
As I've said before, the goal of my suggestion was to help lowbies/newbies to gear up, while doing fast/interesting content. They're still free to craft/buy/loot the gear themselves, but now they'd have an additional way of doing so. This kind of system would also allow for latecomers to catch up quicker w/o having some "boosted xp and loot" system in the game.
A highly skilled low-time player would be able to clear more Tower floors, which would give him points for stronger gear which in turn would allow him to level up faster/easier and would bring him closer to the higher lvled people, at which point he'd be able to participate in harder party content. And any money that he farms while leveling up could go towards acquiring a freehold, a mount, some important consumables or whichever else a player will need in their future.
And all of this could be done w/o immediately finding a guild, so it would even fit Derp's request for some good solo content.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I thought the example of "go RP as a thief" in the context of "social structures" (yes, should've used Orgs instead of Structures) was obvious enough. Guess it wasn't, so I should've explained it better. My bad.
The example itself served as a functional parallel.
I think the more confusing part is why you mention RP.
And then I'm trying to understand what the social structures of RP are supposed to be.
And, then, even if you mean the social structures of the Thieves' Guild, I don't understand why you mention RP.
So, no, it wasn't clear.
But, the whole point of discussion is try to work to work towards more clarity.
So, at least, now you've confirmed you meant the Thieves' Guild.
I dunno why RP is relevant but, I think I don't need to understand that part.
We made great progress there. Yay!
Most people won't just share their gear with random people out of the pureness of their hearts.
There's no need to share gear with random people.
Share gear with people in your guild.
Share gear with newbies and lowbies you've befriended in your Node.
Share gear with your mentees, since Ashes has a Mentor system.
And, I already conceded that most hardcore challenge, competitive, capitalists will not share gear. I'm also saying we shouldn't systemically support that attitude by rewarding them if they do share their gear.
The only system we need for that is sales. Which is already part of the design.
I still don't know why you mention RP.
I think you mean, most people don't form a Thieves' Guild, but because there is one and there is a progression path with rewards, people will join the Thieves' guild.
The parallel is that people who want a reward for sharing their gear will sell their gear for money - either direct sales or via the Auction House.
And the people who are casual challenge, cooperative, socialist players will donate their gear because that's what cooperative socialists do.
As I've said before, the goal of my suggestion was to help lowbies/newbies to gear up, while doing fast/interesting content. They're still free to craft/buy/loot the gear themselves, but now they'd have an additional way of doing so. This kind of system would also allow for latecomers to catch up quicker w/o having some "boosted xp and loot" system in the game.
Yep. And my response remains:
Just help them. No need for any other systemic rewards.
If you want a system to reward you for sharing unwanted gear we have sales and the Auction House.
If you don't wish to share or sell or barter your excess gear, you can deconstruct it and use it for crafting. No need for additional rewards.
A highly skilled low-time player would be able to clear more Tower floors, which would give him points for stronger gear which in turn would allow him to level up faster/easier and would bring him closer to the higher lvled people, at which point he'd be able to participate in harder party content. And any money that he farms while leveling up could go towards acquiring a freehold, a mount, some important consumables or whichever else a player will need in their future.
I did not understand any of what you were trying to convey, there.
If I want to twink a casual time player, I will donate them gear and possibly money -- because I want to twink the character. No need to reward that behavior systemically.
And all of this could be done w/o immediately finding a guild, so it would even fit Derp's request for some good solo content.
Yeah, a guild isn't necessary to twink other players.
Ashes has a bunch of ways to befriend people for high-levs to twink. Solo people included.
No need to add anything.
Just do it.
The suggestion would be because if only 5% of people behave like you do, then unless those people have enough spare gear to help 'all lowbies', then whether or not lowbies receive help is random.
This isn't even helpful because some will just reject it, and while you might continue regardless, some others who do this sort of thing are incentivized to stop after a few 'I was helping newbies but they kept shrugging me off and/or giving it back' (anecdotal memory experience, happened twice in a game I played, but this to me has some meaning because that was 2 of the 4 people that I knew in that group who would be likely to do that).
Now obviously one can't extrapolate that 'because 50% of the generous people I knew got discouraged by their gifts being rejected, that's the populace'.
But in the end, saying to one person 'Just help them out yourself' does not have much to do with whether or not a system should be in place overall. If that system is placed 'alongside' sales, and properly designed, sales will be a path some take, and donations will be a path others take for LESS benefit but not ZERO benefit.
I dunno why RP is relevant but, I think I don't need to understand that part.
I mention RP because at the very start I said "you could RP as a good guy and donate w/o my suggested system". And I said so because, as I keep saying, most people in my experience, don't just share their stuff with people. But if they were RPing as a good guy - they would. And your main counter to my suggestion of "just do it" is exactly why I keep mentioning RP. Because, imo, only an RP person would just give away their gear, with maybe a few exceptionally good people that just wanna support others (like you, considering your attitude towards this kind of suggestion). But I think those are just the exception to the rule.
There's no need to share gear with random people.
Share gear with people in your guild.
Share gear with newbies and lowbies you've befriended in your Node.
Share gear with your mentees, since Ashes has a Mentor system.
And I'm suggesting to have a system similar to the Mentor one, but on a larger scale. Instead of helping just one dude (or however many they allow us to mentor), you'd be helping a ton of future players w/o spending too much time on each one of them. You'd be raising the power floor of your whole node, or maybe even the whole server, depending on how much you donate.
And, again in my experience, even within guilds people would share their stuff on the agreement of "you'll either return this to me or give me smth in return". And those were on the "gooder" side of the spectrum. The best that some people could do is to provide a small "guild discount" while selling the item to their guild mate.
And, I already conceded that most hardcore challenge, competitive, capitalists will not share gear. I'm also saying we shouldn't systemically support that attitude by rewarding them if they do share their gear.
The only system we need for that is sales. Which is already part of the design.
Sale of gear suggests that the newbie that just started playing will somehow have enough money to buy gear, that, by the time of them joining the game, might already cost way more than a newbie can make in reasonable time. Now obviously Intrepid might design their economy in such a perfect way that this won't be a problem at all, but I'll stay doubtful about that prospect until I see it with my own eyes.
I did not understand any of what you were trying to convey, there.
If I want to twink a casual time player, I will donate them gear and possibly money -- because I want to twink the character. No need to reward that behavior systemically.
I was talking about any random new person on the server, not your alt char or friend. As I said before, the goal of my suggestion is to help newcomers/casuals to catch up with the more hardcore people, w/o implementing direct catchup mechanics or having instance dungeons that would provide them with gear that came outside of the open world system. Obviously any player that wants to boost a newbie/alt, can just do that by trading whatever is needed. I've done so countless times. What I want is to increase the scale of that kind of action, w/o as much involvement as a twink would require.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The suggestion would be because if only 5% of people behave like you do, then unless those people have enough spare gear to help 'all lowbies', then whether or not lowbies receive help is random.
We don't need to help ALL the lowbies.
Pretty sure that is not how the Economy is intended to work.
This isn't even helpful because some will just reject it, and while you might continue regardless, some others who do this sort of thing are incentivized to stop after a few 'I was helping newbies but they kept shrugging me off and/or giving it back' (anecdotal memory experience, happened twice in a game I played, but this to me has some meaning because that was 2 of the 4 people that I knew in that group who would be likely to do that).
Sure. That is OK.
There is no reason why everyone should be routinely donating.
There is no reason why people must accept donations.
If you wish to donate, donate.
If you don't want to donate, don't donate.
If you need a reward for sharing your unwanted gear - sell it.
The suggestion would be because if only 5% of people behave like you do, then unless those people have enough spare gear to help 'all lowbies', then whether or not lowbies receive help is random.
We don't need to help ALL the lowbies.
Pretty sure that is not how the Economy is intended to work.
This isn't even helpful because some will just reject it, and while you might continue regardless, some others who do this sort of thing are incentivized to stop after a few 'I was helping newbies but they kept shrugging me off and/or giving it back' (anecdotal memory experience, happened twice in a game I played, but this to me has some meaning because that was 2 of the 4 people that I knew in that group who would be likely to do that).
Sure. That is OK.
There is no reason why everyone should be routinely donating.
There is no reason why people must accept donations.
If you wish to donate, donate.
If you don't want to donate, don't donate.
If you need a reward for sharing your unwanted gear - sell it.
Ah, it seems there's a more fundamental disagreement relative to goals then, perhaps. Only NiKr could say for sure, so I'll disengage.
I'd agree that striking the balance is certainly important. From what I've seen with other MMORPGs, it seems like casual players often make up a large portion of the player bases. So, it is important to make the game enjoyable and accessible for people who aren't able to dedicate all of their time to the game.
However, I agree that making the skill ceiling high and the gameplay rewarding for those who can invest as much time as they want into the game is equally as important.
Ultimately, I'm personally no designer 😉 but - I think both sides of the argument for and against casual-centric gameplay raise interesting points. This has been an interesting thread to read through and I think many of you have brought great opinions to the table!
Comments
Technically yes, however, both can be considered as a same thing in video game context. Anyway, this was just one research but at least it shows that things have changed and evolved and it is hard to use only definitions such as casuals or hardcore because there is so much more in that field nowadays.
Those gamer personas are meaningless in terms of helping me understand the playstyles of people I'm playing with in-game and who I'm likely to enjoy playing with in an MMORPG.
The point was not make you to understand the playstyles who you like to play with but rather show that it is today hard to categorize people only to casuals or hardcore. Different playstyles can be defined e.g. with help of Bartle's Taxonomy or something similar updated closer today. It would be interesting to find a research about player type distribution in video games and if it would be about MMORPG even better.
A system like the one I suggested would just add motivation to sharing your stuff with others. Just like social structures will have rewards for climbing their ladder instead of just going "oh well, you can just go RP as a thief. I bet that's gonna be enough for you". Yes, pure RP would be enough for a few dozen people on the server, but everyone else wouldn't participate in that part of the game if there weren't augments and other potential rewards within the system.
I was thinking for bound gear.
It might not be something that hardcore extremists do.
I dunno how actually passing the gear you've acquired to others equates with merely RPing theft. Especially within guilds.
I also don't understand the conncection between climbing the ladder of social structures and RPing a thief. Do you mean joining a Thieve's Guild Social Org?
Ashes doesn't have very much bound gear.
"A lot of what we experienced in games that usually come before us is that many things are account bound and they're soulbound to your character... Instead very little here is character bound. Very very little. The vast majority of gear- yes you will get quest related gear as rewards- but it won't be let's say one set in one dungeon and you must run the dungeon over and over. Instead we want to really emphasize the reliance on the economy and crafters and gatherers and processors to support a majority of the gear structure in-game, combined with that of world raid bosses and dungeon bosses; not a repetitive quest line through a single dungeon."
---Steven 2018
"The vast majority of items that exist in the game are tradeable. There is no soul bound or bind on equip or bind on pick-up. The economy is built in a way that requires not only the deconstruction of items in order to continue to advance on the crafting side of things, but also the repair system for gear degradation is not some trivial, simple gold sink. They actually require a portion of raw and processed materials in order to repair certain types of items. So, in that regard, we wanna make sure that the economy is a closed system, but is not bound-dependent. It is open, so can be traded and sold."
---Steven 2020
And person who likes to RP could rp as a thief. The game could provide them with a "Thief" title and the RP player might be satisfied with just that, because they create their own gameplay on top of the tools the game provides. Or, well, at least that's what I've heard about how people RP in mmos. If your RPing is different, pls do explain the difference.
But Ashes doesn't just give you a title. It provides you benefits for participating in social orgs system. It gives you motivation to move through their ladder, because there's better benefits at the top of it. And the system I suggested would function in the same way. Of course there's pretty much no bound gear in the game, but what I suggested is not just giving a piece of gear to your mate. I suggested a system that would give out way more gear to way more people, while giving benefits to the players that provided said gear.
In my experiences of being a guild crafter of many years, you usually have waaaay more gear than what your guild requires. And that was in a game w/o an artisan profession system. From what I've seen in NW, people crafted fucking thousands of pieces of useless gear just to level up their professions. Roughly the same thing will happen in Ashes, but instead of just crafting low lvl shit to bump up your artisan XP, I suggested a system where you'd craft a good piece of gear that no one in your guild needs (because they're already overgeared or just don't require that particular piece) and you can then donate that piece to the overall gear donation system in exchange for some benefits to your character. The high lvl player benefits from this, the low lvl players benefit from it, there's no "came out of nowhere" gear acquisition mechanics that are usually tied to instanced content in mmos - as I see it, that's a win-win for all sides. And all the non-crafter players can still just buy gear from crafters/market and get their upgrades from their social org by donating that gear through the system (this would be on top of the standard planned rewards of the social org system).
The best way for intrepid to ensure that the game is enjoyable for hxc/casual players is by making sure that low level content is enjoyable and that there is enough horizontal progression in the game. This is something that ALL players will appreciate regardless of the hours they spend and honestly I assume they are already way ahead of me on this one..
You didn't actually mention Thieves' Guild.
The Thieves' Guild is an actual Social Org; not RP. I didn't take what you said literally. I just tried to make sure I understood what you were trying to say.
But, I still don't know what RPing a thief has to do with actually donating gear.
I just have a clearer idea of what you meant by "climbing the ladder of social structures".
I just don't understand what relevance this is supposed to have to the discussion.
I am a casual challenge, cooperative, socialist player rather than a hardcore challenge, competitive, capitalist player.
My donations have nothing to do with RP.
Make donations because you like helping others; not because the system gives you advantages due to donating.
The ironic thing here is that you are the one taking things literally while I am not.
I translate Thieves' Guild to be a Social Org for Rogues and Bards. A Rogue's Guild.
I'm not thinking about people in the Thieve's Guild stealing stuff and gaining the title of "Thief".
I'm not expecting people to rise through the ranks of the Thieves' Guild primarily via theft.
I dunno what that means.
People tend to have more gear than they need. Individuals and guilds.
Which is why it's easy enough to donate excesss gear - especially within the guild/alliance.
And it's also easy enough to deconstruct or sell gear if you want to.
The mechanic for trading excess gear for upgrades is basically called Sales.
But, I'm pretty sure people will also be able to barter for upgrades without needing a "mechanic" for that.
The example itself served as a functional parallel.
And I've already addressed this. Most people won't just share their gear with random people out of the pureness of their hearts. But if they have a benefit/motivation for doing so - they will. The parallel with the Thieves Guild was to say that most people don't RP as members of said guild, but because there's a benefit for doing so in Ashes - people will become a member to reap those benefits. Functionally, my suggested system works the same way. Most people wouldn't just give away their gear, but they are more likely to do so for some reward. As I've said before, the goal of my suggestion was to help lowbies/newbies to gear up, while doing fast/interesting content. They're still free to craft/buy/loot the gear themselves, but now they'd have an additional way of doing so. This kind of system would also allow for latecomers to catch up quicker w/o having some "boosted xp and loot" system in the game.
A highly skilled low-time player would be able to clear more Tower floors, which would give him points for stronger gear which in turn would allow him to level up faster/easier and would bring him closer to the higher lvled people, at which point he'd be able to participate in harder party content. And any money that he farms while leveling up could go towards acquiring a freehold, a mount, some important consumables or whichever else a player will need in their future.
And all of this could be done w/o immediately finding a guild, so it would even fit Derp's request for some good solo content.
And then I'm trying to understand what the social structures of RP are supposed to be.
And, then, even if you mean the social structures of the Thieves' Guild, I don't understand why you mention RP.
So, no, it wasn't clear.
But, the whole point of discussion is try to work to work towards more clarity.
So, at least, now you've confirmed you meant the Thieves' Guild.
I dunno why RP is relevant but, I think I don't need to understand that part.
We made great progress there. Yay!
There's no need to share gear with random people.
Share gear with people in your guild.
Share gear with newbies and lowbies you've befriended in your Node.
Share gear with your mentees, since Ashes has a Mentor system.
And, I already conceded that most hardcore challenge, competitive, capitalists will not share gear. I'm also saying we shouldn't systemically support that attitude by rewarding them if they do share their gear.
The only system we need for that is sales. Which is already part of the design.
I still don't know why you mention RP.
I think you mean, most people don't form a Thieves' Guild, but because there is one and there is a progression path with rewards, people will join the Thieves' guild.
The parallel is that people who want a reward for sharing their gear will sell their gear for money - either direct sales or via the Auction House.
And the people who are casual challenge, cooperative, socialist players will donate their gear because that's what cooperative socialists do.
Yep. And my response remains:
Just help them. No need for any other systemic rewards.
If you want a system to reward you for sharing unwanted gear we have sales and the Auction House.
If you don't wish to share or sell or barter your excess gear, you can deconstruct it and use it for crafting. No need for additional rewards.
I did not understand any of what you were trying to convey, there.
If I want to twink a casual time player, I will donate them gear and possibly money -- because I want to twink the character. No need to reward that behavior systemically.
Yeah, a guild isn't necessary to twink other players.
Ashes has a bunch of ways to befriend people for high-levs to twink. Solo people included.
No need to add anything.
Just do it.
This isn't even helpful because some will just reject it, and while you might continue regardless, some others who do this sort of thing are incentivized to stop after a few 'I was helping newbies but they kept shrugging me off and/or giving it back' (anecdotal memory experience, happened twice in a game I played, but this to me has some meaning because that was 2 of the 4 people that I knew in that group who would be likely to do that).
Now obviously one can't extrapolate that 'because 50% of the generous people I knew got discouraged by their gifts being rejected, that's the populace'.
But in the end, saying to one person 'Just help them out yourself' does not have much to do with whether or not a system should be in place overall. If that system is placed 'alongside' sales, and properly designed, sales will be a path some take, and donations will be a path others take for LESS benefit but not ZERO benefit.
And, again in my experience, even within guilds people would share their stuff on the agreement of "you'll either return this to me or give me smth in return". And those were on the "gooder" side of the spectrum. The best that some people could do is to provide a small "guild discount" while selling the item to their guild mate.
Sale of gear suggests that the newbie that just started playing will somehow have enough money to buy gear, that, by the time of them joining the game, might already cost way more than a newbie can make in reasonable time. Now obviously Intrepid might design their economy in such a perfect way that this won't be a problem at all, but I'll stay doubtful about that prospect until I see it with my own eyes. I was talking about any random new person on the server, not your alt char or friend. As I said before, the goal of my suggestion is to help newcomers/casuals to catch up with the more hardcore people, w/o implementing direct catchup mechanics or having instance dungeons that would provide them with gear that came outside of the open world system. Obviously any player that wants to boost a newbie/alt, can just do that by trading whatever is needed. I've done so countless times. What I want is to increase the scale of that kind of action, w/o as much involvement as a twink would require.
Pretty sure that is not how the Economy is intended to work.
Sure. That is OK.
There is no reason why everyone should be routinely donating.
There is no reason why people must accept donations.
If you wish to donate, donate.
If you don't want to donate, don't donate.
If you need a reward for sharing your unwanted gear - sell it.
Ah, it seems there's a more fundamental disagreement relative to goals then, perhaps. Only NiKr could say for sure, so I'll disengage.
However, I agree that making the skill ceiling high and the gameplay rewarding for those who can invest as much time as they want into the game is equally as important.
Ultimately, I'm personally no designer 😉 but - I think both sides of the argument for and against casual-centric gameplay raise interesting points. This has been an interesting thread to read through and I think many of you have brought great opinions to the table!
Fully agree with @Marzzo here.