I really like mana management systems. In fact, I think modern MMOs have moved too far away from mana management, which is partially what makes playing a caster interesting. In fact, I'd be thrilled to see an MMO where casters have actual magic systems complete with mana management instead of being a damage turret that never runs out of mana and just has to go through a Simon Says "rotation" with their abilities.
Mana became such a neglectable and disregarded stat on modern MMORPGS, that getting mana on gear or buffs is considered insignificant or even bad if it takes the slot of other stats, at that point mana not existing wouldn't change anything for them.
It's just sad for me to see mana become something so meaningless in those games, having experienced such a deep, inspiring and meaningful mana resource management in Lineage 2.
Totally agree it's been shit for a few years now. Also agree that it shouldn't exist if it isnt meaningful (nothing should).
Like you though, I'd rather see it be meaningful than be removed.
i prefer vanilla wow-style management AI mana is hard to come by and ultimately makes the combat generally more tactical than actionpacked and slows down the gameplay to a more oldschool-ish pace
I enjoyed the "Gift of the Magi" skill you're talking about in Alpha 1. The last boss in the Alpha One main story line was It Before Whom All Tremble, an Ancient who you fought on a cliff. Because he was the final story boss, there was almost always someone trying to run him, and because others had already cleared him I and some others I know like @lemulet would help kill him, so I killed IBWAT a ton.
Sometimes we would have small parties which led to longer fights. During that, the cleric would be running out of mana, and I spec'ed into gift of the magi in order to give the cleric enough mana to make sure we didn't wipe. I enjoyed that gameplay immensely, I was managing party member's mana while also trying to max my dps. It felt great to give a cleric more mana in order to get a heal off just in time.
Mana pots are fine, but please keep gift of the magi as the main mana restoration. I would love to have that gameplay again.
Loved reading this Thank you for sharing! Also, a great anecdote to use to back up your point
I'd love to hear more use cases of mana management and how you all would have it implemented into Ashes of Creation
A recent comment exchange with @Azherae in another thread, inspired me to create this discussion as i feel it might be very important for Ashes gameplay as a whole.
Lineage 2, one of the games AoC draws alot of inspirations from, had one of the harshest Mana Management systems in any MMORPG i've ever played, where there were no mana potions, were mana costs were steep and there was 2 essential classes almost completely dedicated to the management of mana of their party and that every 9man-party would wan't atleast 1 of them,
then there is a clue we got by considering Alpha 1 mages had a specific mana recharging skill.
Those pieces of informations makes me believe Mages will not only be a DPS class but will also play the role of the "Party Mana Manager" in Ashes and that Ashes will have an "harder than average Mana Management system.
With all that in mind, in this thread i would like to know people's opinions and experiences in other games and their expectations for Ashes regarding this topic.
Asherons Call had stamina to mana and mana to stamina spells, when you were fighting you were constantly managing your mana lest you run out.
I'm not a fan of just mana as a resource, I think it takes away from the experience. Just like I think having to constantly drug through a game where you hit a wall on what you can do makes for a terrible experience.
Team work should make things much more efficient, but I don't think it should be the requirement.
Why are we limited to just mana? The game lore specifically states Essence as the basis of all magic in Verra
"The Ten separated from the others and began to teach the Ancients the Secrets of the Essence."
Mana is not the word to be using at all in AoC. We should be speaking in terms of this games vision of it's lore and have that bethe guide of essence management.
For instance, hints provided in this lore statement
"The essence is a stream that exists across all planes of existence, but it exists at different levels of strength essentially at different levels that can be utilized; and the void is the furthest... There is a very minute amount of essence that can be found within the void. However the planes of existence that are in Ashes of Creation- they are connected across bridges created by the essence."
1. This suggests that essence is derived from a common stream, and across all planes
2. But at differing levels of strength
3. The void where 3 of "The Ten" were banished too has the least level of strength in essence
These are all clues as to how the lore needs to dictate the mechanics of the games play
So essence management should be more thought of as a stream of flow from the source stream itself. This suggests an essence tethering and a class needing it to heal, or a dps needing it to do damage or a tank needing it to keep the attention of a mob all should have to drink from the same river, but the river like bandwidth is only so wide on the plane you are on. And due to someone in the party drinking too much the others in the party have less to drink
Perhaps bosses or mobs can even affect a players essence tether. Such as a void mob that lives without essence, has the ability to naturally narrow the flow of essence of a party of the material plane of which Vera is in.
Can go so far as to say the alignments of the constellations can narrow or open the stream so some bosses literally have to be hunted during certain constellations apex?
So long explanation short....
Traditional mechanics on mana management need to be re thought. The story, the lore should guide the game mechs.
I'm a bit of a hater of the current mana system atm. Currently it seems to work similar as it did in Rift, wich is the game I played the most with that kind of system (big pool of resource that slowly drains away and you need to be conservative with).
It is bad and unfun for several reasons.
Me as a healer want to do everything I possibly can to help and support my teamates, at all times, even if they screw up somehow. I want to save them even if they make a mistake. Obviously if they do a big enough mistake they are gonna die, but I want to try and save them. Letting someone die or not heal them to full health goes so much in the wrong direction of my healer mindset and why I choose to play healer. Just the thought that I should NOT heal someone to full or be slow and conservative with mana is plain RIDICULOUS.
I MUCH prefered the "mana" system and healing classes in warhammer online were every class had a medium amount of energy that fairly quickly refills constantly. As long as you had enough energy you could spam away all you wanted but when you reached 0 you could still do abilities short after and be helpful but not as efficently. Maybe working 50% as efficent if you did nothing to get your mana back up with potions, waiting a short while or pressed some mana recovery ability.
So it was more of an efficency meter. The better gear, skill, awareness and use of abilities you had the more efficent you would be. Much more fun!
The main thing I am against is the DOWNTIME with big pool of mana and when empty you are fish in barrel and just waiting.
I am NOT against some sort of mana management.
@novercalis
"Wizards in EQ were limited to like 4-5 spells before being Out of mana for ~10min."
You can not be serious that you enjoyed that, NO WAY DUDE.
I enjoyed the "Gift of the Magi" skill you're talking about in Alpha 1. The last boss in the Alpha One main story line was It Before Whom All Tremble, an Ancient who you fought on a cliff. Because he was the final story boss, there was almost always someone trying to run him, and because others had already cleared him I and some others I know like @lemulet would help kill him, so I killed IBWAT a ton.
Sometimes we would have small parties which led to longer fights. During that, the cleric would be running out of mana, and I spec'ed into gift of the magi in order to give the cleric enough mana to make sure we didn't wipe. I enjoyed that gameplay immensely, I was managing party member's mana while also trying to max my dps. It felt great to give a cleric more mana in order to get a heal off just in time.
Mana pots are fine, but please keep gift of the magi as the main mana restoration. I would love to have that gameplay again.
Loved reading this Thank you for sharing! Also, a great anecdote to use to back up your point
I'd love to hear more use cases of mana management and how you all would have it implemented into Ashes of Creation
i really liked castigation and i hope it is brought back how it was in a1.
also, i really hope the bard has some sort of proximity based mana recharge for the party and the summoner has a single target mana recharge, maybe at the cost of health or pet's health. i want the summoner to be a mix of the summoner and elven elder from l2.
i also liked gift of the magi
I want foods, potions, etc available to help assist with mana regen. Whether they put a cap on how many you can hold, if you have to sit while drinking or eating, etc doesn't bother me. Just please don't create a scenario where certain classes have to spend all their time assisting players in order to mana up..... it is your toon, therefore you need to be the one to figure out the rotation to be most valuable in using your mana.
I'm a bit of a hater of the current mana system atm. Currently it seems to work similar as it did in Rift, wich is the game I played the most with that kind of system (big pool of resource that slowly drains away and you need to be conservative with).
It is bad and unfun for several reasons.
Me as a healer want to do everything I possibly can to help and support my teamates, at all times, even if they screw up somehow. I want to save them even if they make a mistake. Obviously if they do a big enough mistake they are gonna die, but I want to try and save them. Letting someone die or not heal them to full health goes so much in the wrong direction of my healer mindset and why I choose to play healer. Just the thought that I should NOT heal someone to full or be slow and conservative with mana is plain RIDICULOUS.
I MUCH prefered the "mana" system and healing classes in warhammer online were every class had a medium amount of energy that fairly quickly refills constantly. As long as you had enough energy you could spam away all you wanted but when you reached 0 you could still do abilities short after and be helpful but not as efficently. Maybe working 50% as efficent if you did nothing to get your mana back up with potions, waiting a short while or pressed some mana recovery ability.
So it was more of an efficency meter. The better gear, skill, awareness and use of abilities you had the more efficent you would be. Much more fun!
The main thing I am against is the DOWNTIME with big pool of mana and when empty you are fish in barrel and just waiting.
I am NOT against some sort of mana management.
@novercalis
"Wizards in EQ were limited to like 4-5 spells before being Out of mana for ~10min."
You can not be serious that you enjoyed that, NO WAY DUDE.
Yea, I played both those games and liked their systems. ESO went even more in that direction too, no cooldowns on abilities with very fast mana regen, so you could spam an expensive ability maybe 3 times and then be oom for a while but it was still an option, so managing mana was very strategic.
Think I chimed in earlier in this thread, but cooldowns plus watching your mana? Meh, AoC's current system seems out of date. Especially when people sit in the videos, brings up memories from EQ with outdated systems.
I'm a bit of a hater of the current mana system atm. Currently it seems to work similar as it did in Rift, wich is the game I played the most with that kind of system (big pool of resource that slowly drains away and you need to be conservative with).
It is bad and unfun for several reasons.
Me as a healer want to do everything I possibly can to help and support my teamates, at all times, even if they screw up somehow. I want to save them even if they make a mistake. Obviously if they do a big enough mistake they are gonna die, but I want to try and save them. Letting someone die or not heal them to full health goes so much in the wrong direction of my healer mindset and why I choose to play healer. Just the thought that I should NOT heal someone to full or be slow and conservative with mana is plain RIDICULOUS.
I MUCH prefered the "mana" system and healing classes in warhammer online were every class had a medium amount of energy that fairly quickly refills constantly. As long as you had enough energy you could spam away all you wanted but when you reached 0 you could still do abilities short after and be helpful but not as efficently. Maybe working 50% as efficent if you did nothing to get your mana back up with potions, waiting a short while or pressed some mana recovery ability.
So it was more of an efficency meter. The better gear, skill, awareness and use of abilities you had the more efficent you would be. Much more fun!
The main thing I am against is the DOWNTIME with big pool of mana and when empty you are fish in barrel and just waiting.
I am NOT against some sort of mana management.
@novercalis
"Wizards in EQ were limited to like 4-5 spells before being Out of mana for ~10min."
You can not be serious that you enjoyed that, NO WAY DUDE.
Yea, I played both those games and liked their systems. ESO went even more in that direction too, no cooldowns on abilities with very fast mana regen, so you could spam an expensive ability maybe 3 times and then be oom for a while but it was still an option, so managing mana was very strategic.
Think I chimed in earlier in this thread, but cooldowns plus watching your mana? Meh, AoC's current system seems out of date. Especially when people sit in the videos, brings up memories from EQ with outdated systems.
what you call outdated i call consistent. people dont like change as much as you think.
Mages will not only be a DPS class but will also play the role of the "Party Mana Manager" in Ashes and that Ashes will have an "harder than average Mana Management system. With all that in mind, in this thread I would like to know people's opinions and experiences in other games and their expectations for Ashes regarding this topic.
-As a caster main, I love Massive damage! But I would love some form of Utility in the party dynamic beyond just "sleep that target" and babysit it's timer! Whether it's a MP regen Seal I place on the ground, an AoE MP regen Aura surrounding me, or a Channeled AoE MP regen, i'm totally for it!
Or the Mage Aura causes all spells to cost 0MP for 30 seconds.
Comments
Totally agree it's been shit for a few years now. Also agree that it shouldn't exist if it isnt meaningful (nothing should).
Like you though, I'd rather see it be meaningful than be removed.
Loved reading this
I'd love to hear more use cases of mana management and how you all would have it implemented into Ashes of Creation
Asherons Call had stamina to mana and mana to stamina spells, when you were fighting you were constantly managing your mana lest you run out.
I'm not a fan of just mana as a resource, I think it takes away from the experience. Just like I think having to constantly drug through a game where you hit a wall on what you can do makes for a terrible experience.
Team work should make things much more efficient, but I don't think it should be the requirement.
"The Ten separated from the others and began to teach the Ancients the Secrets of the Essence."
Mana is not the word to be using at all in AoC. We should be speaking in terms of this games vision of it's lore and have that bethe guide of essence management.
For instance, hints provided in this lore statement
"The essence is a stream that exists across all planes of existence, but it exists at different levels of strength essentially at different levels that can be utilized; and the void is the furthest... There is a very minute amount of essence that can be found within the void. However the planes of existence that are in Ashes of Creation- they are connected across bridges created by the essence."
1. This suggests that essence is derived from a common stream, and across all planes
2. But at differing levels of strength
3. The void where 3 of "The Ten" were banished too has the least level of strength in essence
These are all clues as to how the lore needs to dictate the mechanics of the games play
So essence management should be more thought of as a stream of flow from the source stream itself. This suggests an essence tethering and a class needing it to heal, or a dps needing it to do damage or a tank needing it to keep the attention of a mob all should have to drink from the same river, but the river like bandwidth is only so wide on the plane you are on. And due to someone in the party drinking too much the others in the party have less to drink
Perhaps bosses or mobs can even affect a players essence tether. Such as a void mob that lives without essence, has the ability to naturally narrow the flow of essence of a party of the material plane of which Vera is in.
Can go so far as to say the alignments of the constellations can narrow or open the stream so some bosses literally have to be hunted during certain constellations apex?
So long explanation short....
Traditional mechanics on mana management need to be re thought. The story, the lore should guide the game mechs.
I'm a bit of a hater of the current mana system atm. Currently it seems to work similar as it did in Rift, wich is the game I played the most with that kind of system (big pool of resource that slowly drains away and you need to be conservative with).
It is bad and unfun for several reasons.
Me as a healer want to do everything I possibly can to help and support my teamates, at all times, even if they screw up somehow. I want to save them even if they make a mistake. Obviously if they do a big enough mistake they are gonna die, but I want to try and save them. Letting someone die or not heal them to full health goes so much in the wrong direction of my healer mindset and why I choose to play healer. Just the thought that I should NOT heal someone to full or be slow and conservative with mana is plain RIDICULOUS.
I MUCH prefered the "mana" system and healing classes in warhammer online were every class had a medium amount of energy that fairly quickly refills constantly. As long as you had enough energy you could spam away all you wanted but when you reached 0 you could still do abilities short after and be helpful but not as efficently. Maybe working 50% as efficent if you did nothing to get your mana back up with potions, waiting a short while or pressed some mana recovery ability.
So it was more of an efficency meter. The better gear, skill, awareness and use of abilities you had the more efficent you would be. Much more fun!
The main thing I am against is the DOWNTIME with big pool of mana and when empty you are fish in barrel and just waiting.
I am NOT against some sort of mana management.
@novercalis
"Wizards in EQ were limited to like 4-5 spells before being Out of mana for ~10min."
You can not be serious that you enjoyed that, NO WAY DUDE.
i really liked castigation and i hope it is brought back how it was in a1.
also, i really hope the bard has some sort of proximity based mana recharge for the party and the summoner has a single target mana recharge, maybe at the cost of health or pet's health. i want the summoner to be a mix of the summoner and elven elder from l2.
i also liked gift of the magi
Yea, I played both those games and liked their systems. ESO went even more in that direction too, no cooldowns on abilities with very fast mana regen, so you could spam an expensive ability maybe 3 times and then be oom for a while but it was still an option, so managing mana was very strategic.
Think I chimed in earlier in this thread, but cooldowns plus watching your mana? Meh, AoC's current system seems out of date. Especially when people sit in the videos, brings up memories from EQ with outdated systems.
what you call outdated i call consistent. people dont like change as much as you think.
-As a caster main, I love Massive damage! But I would love some form of Utility in the party dynamic beyond just "sleep that target" and babysit it's timer! Whether it's a MP regen Seal I place on the ground, an AoE MP regen Aura surrounding me, or a Channeled AoE MP regen, i'm totally for it!
Or the Mage Aura causes all spells to cost 0MP for 30 seconds.