Contested dungeons

It has been well established that dungeon content will be something that can be contested by other groups in a way that it is not "first come first serve" for a whole dungeon and neither will it be infinite parallel instances only one group at a time will be in. However it seems - from what I know - that there is not much known beyond that.

So what I would like to do is gather ideas for what would be good ways to design contestable dungeons to have variety and avoid all dungeons having a "the strongest group will get the boss loot" design.

What we already know: Most dungeons and their bosses will be up for contest until the boss is dead. Dungeons will have "tiers" to them where parts of the dungeon will be designed for different levels.

And to make sure we are on the same page here - I am not trying to have no dungeons where multiple groups can be in the boss fight - I just hope to see different dungeon ideas alongside this one.

1) Availability

This first point is very straight forward: If there are enough (or too much) dungeons available even though the boss can be directly contested, it might not be anyone there who wants/needs to do so.

2) There is no "final boss"

While in quests there is merit to the idea of progressing through a dungeon to find a concluding element in form of a boss, I don't think it is necessary to put up such restrictions in every dungeon. Again, it's about variety when it comes to keeping a system interesting. So if we have a let's say ancient temple full of living statues, there might be multiple bosses in there, all holding valuable loot that is not inferior to that of other bosses. That leaves players with the option to 'simply' use the time one group is dealing with a boss in the eastern wing of the temple to go after the boss in the catacombs below.

3) Contest of access

In some cases it might make sense to not have a contest IN the dungeon but to gain access to it. Let's say this temple is still brimming with magical force but due to it's age the protective barrier is not functioning properly anymore. When the barrier deactivates/weakens, it is possible to pull some of the guardian creatures out of the barrier and kill them to obtain a crystal that allows the group to pass through the barrier even when its up - or to simply slip in. However the time window to slip in and the numbers of guardian creatures is limited.

This reduces the PvP in the dungeon but creates an interesting temporary battlefield in front of the dungeon, which could be an interesting story element for later.

4) Compete for more

The temple dungeon in our example is now controlled by a Lich (he will be only available when the adjacent Node grows to level 5+; but other parts are accessible beforehand). To strengthen himself he wants death to spread, so he deliberately opens up the proving grounds of the temple, here groups have to compete in some kind of challenge and depending on their performance, gain access to more difficult or simply different parts of the dungeon. To the players this may look like a reward, to the Lich it is a way to spread them out and ensure that adventurers are sent into the appropriate death machine. This is a bit similar to point 3 but I would use this to pit groups explicitly against each other which means greater PvP risk so more PvE benefits when you succeed.

5) Burn bridges

It would be fun to have some mechanics to make advancing through a dungeon more difficult for other groups that are further behind - for example by literally burning a bridge and forcing groups who came in later to take another, longer or more dangerous route. Of course this has to have its own price, consuming time and/or resources of the group passing the point they want to turn into an obstacle. It could also mean that they have to forego on a part of the loot or increasing the bosses difficulty (e.g. by creating a cave in they cut of one path for pursuers but a part of the final treasure chamber collapses and part of the bosses arena changes into dangerous/inaccessible terrain)

I really like the idea of not only trying to make it through the dungeon but also knowing that you have potential contestants sitting in your neck, which motivates players to really become very efficient at crawling through the dungeon and that's why I wanted to add some things to the ways these contests can be designed.

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Songcaller

novercalis wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I'm not against grouped mobs. I think there should be singular mobs and grouped mobs to make a dungeon more inclusive.

flat no.

They way Steven answered Solo play - he skirted around not to outright say there is no solo play. He said there will be some solo content - caravan, siege, BH.

As for solo players doing solo XP - I dont want to see that be a thing. MAYBE 2-3 classes being somewhat capable.

To be more specific - I do thing you should be able to single kill a target, but its gonna take you longer and the XP rate is NEEDS to be not worth compared to those who are in groups.

Sure, you can solo - lower level single mobs in the open world. In the dungeon - forget about, unless you're a level 40 in a lvl 20 dungeon - then once again - SURE.

Therefor I am against seeing individual players of equal level in equal lvl dungeons soloing. Can you single pull from someone, I guess - but dungeon mobs should look like this:

level 40 player fighting a "level 40 mob" is technically a lvl 42-43 mob.
In EQ a mob 2-3+ levels above you is pretty much impossible to solo.

So once again, you, the solo lvl 40 player will need to fight lvl 37 dungeon mob to be MAYBE viable/doable. But you are getting the XP rate of a 37 mob, that is lower level than you, which makes it even less xp.

I hope all of that made sense.

What are you saying here? You just want grouped mobs and no solid solo mobs? Won't that get boring? Perhaps inclusive was the wrong word to use but I stand by my initial statement.

precisely. I am against the concept of solo game play in an mmorpg. Unfortunately the term MMORPG has been bastardize and encompasses many games that arent in the same vein as EQ/WoW/Lineage. (FF14 Is NOT an mmorpg).
Basically what I think an MMORPG is a CO-OPERATIVE MMORPG that requires teamwork and everything is mostly tied to social gameplay and interaction.

If I wanted to play solo rpg, I'll play Zelda, FF, Elden Ring, Skyrim, etc. An MMO - I dont want to just share a universe - I want to be reliant by others and others be reliant of me. Team work, group effort, server effort.

You can solo in WoW though, and I soloed in EQ somewhat. There's a whole ironman group for WoW. I would rather have solo components in the game than forced Raid Finder, Group Finder, Guild Finder just because the game tag is MMORPG. If no one can't progress without a group the game will die. We don't all want to be stuck waiting for the people with jobs to log in.

arsnn

I really enjoyed skimming through the thread.
Let me add some of the ideas.

Caravans in dungeons

-I think locking out the gameplay loop of caravans out of the dungeons would be kind of odd, especially because dungeons are connected with the world and not instanced.

-Caravans could be used for a extraction type of gameplay loop, similar to how the division or escape of tarkov did it. Groups crawling through dungeons can store wast amounts of heavy materials in the caravan, once you feel you got enough you are looking for an extraction point, where your loot is same from pvp.

-Secondly caravans could be used to build infrastructure in dungeons. Opposed to burning bridges you might build them

Guilds could bring in materials from both the open world and other dungeons or transport them from the dungeon itself to places where its needed.
Things like building bridges or digging tunntels could be huge tasks involving several guilds even competing against each other to build their stuff first or sabotaging the efforts of others. It sort of act as a content gate in order to get to the next area.

But there could also be infrastructure like small settlements in the deepest dungeon levels, that give players various services.
Such as respawn areas, so that people wont have to start from the beginning again.
Weapon armor related repair stations.
Build a safe area for people to rest, by building freeholds and taverns.
Markets for key materials.
Maybe some kind of housing to teleport to, once you are in the dungeon.

-Also coming from the open world should have an increased aggro zone for mobs, or trigger something, so that getting them through the dungeon could be raid itself.

Gameplay mechanics that allow for players to get into specialized roles.

As PvP will be a central part of many dungeons, i would like to see some gameplay mechanics that are mostly used in mobas.
You want to avoid pvp groups? Designate a guy that sets up wards/vision in the surrounding areas.
You want to counter the attacks of pvp groups? Set up traps that deal damage.

Strevi

The Caravans in dungeons idea from @arsnn could be extended to a full castle, owned by the end boss, a castle which could be never fully conquered.
Battles with the boss would drop materials but would also enrage him causing a masive counter attack to the nearby node.

Vaknar

Interesting discussions happening here. The idea of open-world dungeons will likely be a new one for many players. I suspect many of them will find it more fun and less daunting than it may sound if you're coming from an instanced-only-dungeons kind of game

Strevi

arsnn wrote: »

Caravans in dungeons

-Secondly caravans could be used to build infrastructure in dungeons. Opposed to burning bridges you might build them
Guilds could bring in materials from both the open world and other dungeons or transport them from the dungeon itself to places where its needed.

This means that
- each arriving caravan could actually be important to win against the boss
- the retrieved item might be needed in the other metropolis. So if two metropolises cooperate, the other nodes should get a high incentive to intercept and destroy that specific caravan

Kilion

Strevi wrote: »

This means that
- each arriving caravan could actually be important to win against the boss
- the retrieved item might be needed in the other metropolis. So if two metropolises cooperate, the other nodes should get a high incentive to intercept and destroy that specific caravan

Agreed, it would also provide a great reason to have quests around the different parts of the dungeon and the supply routes in and out of it. And it would be awesome to maybe have this as part of the node system as well.

With the advancement of a node new artisan and caravan quests will be unlocked to advance to deeper levels of the dungeon unlocking them progressively.

I also would think it would be fun to have some out-of-the-dungeon impact. Let's say you defeat that corrupted mushroom monster in the cave and for some time, this increases the growth rate of herbs in the nearby forest. This would make PvE content relevant for PvP - an enemy Node may want to bleed dry the resources in the vicinity of an enemy Node, so they for once plunder the forest and then station troops in the Mushroom dungeon to protect it so the herbs and trees in the forest don't recover too quickly.

superhero6785

Strevi wrote: »

Transporting the loot back to a storage should be riskier than driving a caravan.

This won't happen. That would create a strong reward for corruption, which they've already said they won't do. Caravans are opt-in PvP zones...clearing PvE dungeons are not. Killing green players to lay claim to an open world dungeon IS the reward itself. If someone has already cleared the dungeon and is now transporting goods back to storage, you're too late.

Strevi

Kilion wrote: »

So what I would like to do is gather ideas for what would be good ways to design contestable dungeons to have variety and avoid all dungeons having a "the strongest group will get the boss loot" design.

The dungeons could have areas which favor different classes. For example in some places summoners might have an advantage. In other zones, more thieves with their trap detection and disarming abilities. Or classes which can root or control enemy NPC's.

Then in such dungeons, random teams will have different zones where they are 'the strongest'.
Maybe these zones would also not stay unchanged and after each area clean, the same team might not always feel ready to stay or would struggle.

Ludullu

Strevi wrote: »

The dungeons could have areas which favor different classes. For example in some places summoners might have an advantage. In other zones, more thieves with their trap detection and disarming abilities. Or classes which can root or control enemy NPC's.

Then in such dungeons, random teams will have different zones where they are 'the strongest'.
Maybe these zones would also not stay unchanged and after each area clean, the same team might not always feel ready to stay or would struggle.

This is pretty much what I'm expecting already

Kilion

NiKr wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

The dungeons could have areas which favor different classes. For example in some places summoners might have an advantage. In other zones, more thieves with their trap detection and disarming abilities. Or classes which can root or control enemy NPC's.

Then in such dungeons, random teams will have different zones where they are 'the strongest'.
Maybe these zones would also not stay unchanged and after each area clean, the same team might not always feel ready to stay or would struggle.

This is pretty much what I'm expecting already

Absolutely! It is a good way to reward flexibility and variation in the group you are having.

And what would get me really hyped would be rewarding having certain artisans in your group. Example: There is an altar in a ruins dungeon that was overrun by creatures and depending on the sacrifices you make on that altar, you can unlock different types of events or bosses or even debuffs on other groups in the dungeon. However you must have an master herbalist with you to gather the delicate flowers in the dungeon first or a master hunter to skin and gut the right creature. And the other way around - you might want to have an alchemist with you so in case someone floods the dungeon with poison from sacrificing the flowers on the altar, they can use the same flowers to quickly create an antidote and cancel the effect of the poison.

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