You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.
I mean, leading your shot is just a part of aiming at a target.
Believing ALL Hard CC in the game will be bound to action skills is unreasonable, gotta take the "may be" in the statement seriously, Sleep is the weakest form of hard CC(CC that completely shuts down all actions) because of its functionality of being removed when receiving damage, the only thing making Slumber kinda OP is its 30m range, it should be less in my opinion, but without information of other variables its unreasonable to judge it yet.
the only thing making Slumber kinda OP is its 30m range, it should be less in my opinion.
Do we have any information on the range of any second pass ability of any other class?
Range?? There is literaly no information regarding ANY second pass of A2 class skills yet , what they will be like by the start of A2 is unpredictable.
You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.
I mean, leading your shot is just a part of aiming at a target.
Just ask anyone that goes clay target shooting.
I’d say as an Army veteran I’m a subject matter expert, don’t need to ask the clay shooters.
Your aim is where you place your crosshairs, and you don’t necessarily aim at your target. You track your target or you lead your shots when they move.
You aim at your target when you can hit center mass or a head shot.
You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.
I mean, leading your shot is just a part of aiming at a target.
Just ask anyone that goes clay target shooting.
I’d say as an Army veteran I’m a subject matter expert, don’t need to ask the clay shooters.
Your aim is where you place your crosshairs are you don’t necessarily aim at your target.
That’s why I made that distinction.
But your target is still your target.
Since that is the point I am making, and since you are a "subject matter expert", I'd have to assume you agree.
Unless you want to try and say that the target you just talked about above isnt a target.
the only thing making Slumber kinda OP is its 30m range, it should be less in my opinion.
Do we have any information on the range of any second pass ability of any other class?
Range?? There is literaly no information regarding ANY second pass of A2 class skills yet , what they will be like by the start of A2 is unpredictable.
Yeah, this is why I'm not really making any comments as to balance as yet.
For all we know, standard range of other classes may be 50m, making this abilities 30m range fairly short.
You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.
I mean, leading your shot is just a part of aiming at a target.
Just ask anyone that goes clay target shooting.
I’d say as an Army veteran I’m a subject matter expert, don’t need to ask the clay shooters.
Your aim is where you place your crosshairs are you don’t necessarily aim at your target.
That’s why I made that distinction.
But your target is still your target.
Since that is the point I am making, and since you are a "subject matter expert", I'd have to assume you agree.
Unless you want to try and say that the target you just talked about above isnt a target.
I just said, with distinction. You just don’t always aim *at* your target.
You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.
I mean, leading your shot is just a part of aiming at a target.
Just ask anyone that goes clay target shooting.
I’d say as an Army veteran I’m a subject matter expert, don’t need to ask the clay shooters.
Your aim is where you place your crosshairs are you don’t necessarily aim at your target.
That’s why I made that distinction.
But your target is still your target.
Since that is the point I am making, and since you are a "subject matter expert", I'd have to assume you agree.
Unless you want to try and say that the target you just talked about above isnt a target.
I just said, with distinction. You just don’t always aim *at* your target.
Again, I think you are missing the point here.
The point you and I are discussing is the use of the word "target", we are not talking about leading a shot.
I think between blink and slumber a mage will rarely die in pve. I know the devs showed us the mage dying but generally you won't over pull with any class in Ashes.
the only thing making Slumber kinda OP is its 30m range, it should be less in my opinion.
Do we have any information on the range of any second pass ability of any other class?
Range?? There is literaly no information regarding ANY second pass of A2 class skills yet , what they will be like by the start of A2 is unpredictable.
Yeah, this is why I'm not really making any comments as to balance as yet.
For all we know, standard range of other classes may be 50m, making this abilities 30m range fairly short.
I mean, i said i won't judge it yet but i find it highly unlikely that "standard range of other classes may be 50m" other than literal Ranger, but sure, who knows.
You lead your shot in hopes the person you want to kill moves into it, that's free aim they likewise only have to not walk into the trajectory of your ability.
That's why they're calling the ability tab, because it is indeed a tab target ability.
I mean, leading your shot is just a part of aiming at a target.
Just ask anyone that goes clay target shooting.
I’d say as an Army veteran I’m a subject matter expert, don’t need to ask the clay shooters.
Your aim is where you place your crosshairs are you don’t necessarily aim at your target.
That’s why I made that distinction.
But your target is still your target.
Since that is the point I am making, and since you are a "subject matter expert", I'd have to assume you agree.
Unless you want to try and say that the target you just talked about above isnt a target.
I just said, with distinction. You just don’t always aim *at* your target.
Again, I think you are missing the point here.
The point you and I are discussing is the use of the word "target", we are not talking about leading a shot.
The target usually refers to the thing you intend to kill.
You don’t always aim at the thing you intend to kill.
But you always intend to kill your target.
That’s free aiming.
That’s a distinction that must be made, from tan target in that you must certainly be tabbed on your target in order to kill it in tab target.
also, not sure if you can force attack people in your party, guild, or node (not sure about the restrictions) but you could wake your own teammates up with a super weak attack
We can't flag on those people, but we haven't heard about attacking them if we're already flagged. I think this will be my next question for the q&a.
yeah. we could also have waking scrolls and they would be dropped in the under realm hahaha, get it? xDDD
That’s a distinction that must be made, from tan target in that you must certainly be tabbed on your target in order to kill it in tab target.
Yeah, but that isn't what we are talking about.
We are talking the use of the word "target" in the description of the ability.
For some reason, you have gone on some tangent about free aiming and leading your shot (as if leading your shot isn't a component of aiming, just as accounting for a ballistic arch is a part of targeting for weapons that require it).
That’s a distinction that must be made, from tan target in that you must certainly be tabbed on your target in order to kill it in tab target.
Yeah, but that isn't what we are talking about.
We are talking the use of the word "target" in the description of the ability.
For some reason, you have gone on some tangent about free aiming and leading your shot (as if leading your shot isn't a component of aiming, just as accounting for a ballistic arch is a part of targeting for weapons that require it).
Freely aiming an ability doesn't require a target.
Tab requires a target.
The tool tip is quite clear in that it requires a target.
That’s a distinction that must be made, from tan target in that you must certainly be tabbed on your target in order to kill it in tab target.
Yeah, but that isn't what we are talking about.
We are talking the use of the word "target" in the description of the ability.
For some reason, you have gone on some tangent about free aiming and leading your shot (as if leading your shot isn't a component of aiming, just as accounting for a ballistic arch is a part of targeting for weapons that require it).
Freely aiming an ability doesn't require a target.
Tab requires a target.
The tool tip is quite clear in that it requires a target.
This skill isn't exactly unique.
The skill says it requires a primary target, tab combat doesn't have primary or secondary targets.
Also, tab target doesn't always require a target. But you'd not know that based on the comments of some people.
That’s a distinction that must be made, from tan target in that you must certainly be tabbed on your target in order to kill it in tab target.
Yeah, but that isn't what we are talking about.
We are talking the use of the word "target" in the description of the ability.
For some reason, you have gone on some tangent about free aiming and leading your shot (as if leading your shot isn't a component of aiming, just as accounting for a ballistic arch is a part of targeting for weapons that require it).
Freely aiming an ability doesn't require a target.
Tab requires a target.
The tool tip is quite clear in that it requires a target.
This skill isn't exactly unique.
The skill says it requires a primary target, tab combat doesn't have primary or secondary targets.
Also, tab target doesn't always require a target. But you'd not know that based on the comments of some people.
I don't think they need to add an aim to sleep. I would instead suggest a long animated cast time and a visual effect building up on the primary target during the cast. Or they could keep the cast speed as is and add a delay with the same visual effect suggested before on the primary target. This allows room for skilled movement from people paying attention to avoid the cc while its being cast/counting down. This will always hit the primary target, but if they or their party members are paying attention they should have time to save their friends from its effects.
Well here's it's demonstration clearly being done, showcasing exactly what the ability does in tab combat.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
We were talking about the description of the ability.
Yes, clearly demonstrated at the time stamp.
It all checks out.
It's a tab hard CC.
Which the OP clearly wanted to know why it's tab instead of action.
Yeah, but that isn't what you and I are talking about.
The OP dealt with their own concern by posting that Intrepid said all hard CC *may be* housed in action oriented skills. Since *may be* also means *may not be*, there is nothing here to talk about.
However, again, that isn't what you and I were talking about.
Well here's it's demonstration clearly being done, showcasing exactly what the ability does in tab combat.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
We were talking about the description of the ability.
Yes, clearly demonstrated at the time stamp.
It all checks out.
It's a tab hard CC.
Which the OP clearly wanted to know why it's tab instead of action.
Yeah, but that isn't what you and I are talking about.
The OP dealt with their own concern by posting that Intrepid said all hard CC *may be* housed in action oriented skills. Since *may be* also means *may not be*, there is nothing here to talk about.
However, again, that isn't what you and I were talking about.
I think target(s) is clear and succinct given the fact it's an AoE that's cast on a single target then hits the surrounding targets.
Unless you're struggling with understanding what a target is.
Well here's it's demonstration clearly being done, showcasing exactly what the ability does in tab combat.
I'm not sure what you are getting at here.
We were talking about the description of the ability.
Yes, clearly demonstrated at the time stamp.
It all checks out.
It's a tab hard CC.
Which the OP clearly wanted to know why it's tab instead of action.
Yeah, but that isn't what you and I are talking about.
The OP dealt with their own concern by posting that Intrepid said all hard CC *may be* housed in action oriented skills. Since *may be* also means *may not be*, there is nothing here to talk about.
However, again, that isn't what you and I were talking about.
I think target(s) is clear and succinct given the fact it's an AoE that's cast on a single target then hits the surrounding targets.
Unless you're struggling with understanding what a target is.
I think we should be clear at this point that I understand what a target is - both in tab target games, and in action games.
Again, in an action game, you have a target - it is the entity you wish to hit.
In a tab target game, where a target is an actual mechanic, you only have one target. The game mechanic only lets you have one target. As such, the game should only ever talk about one target in a tab target skill, not primary and secondary targets.
Back to action, the target is who ever you wish to hit. As such, there is no mechanic that designates a target for you, and so having primary and secondary targets in the description is perfectly fine.
If Ashes has a description of primary target on a tab target based ability, then Intrepid need to answer where the tab target mechanic allows for a secondary target - or change the wording.
I showed the responses to my friends and we're all quite shocked at these definitions of hard/soft CC! We've always used the terms "silence", "interrupt", "disarm" etc for what you guys refer to as soft CC.
And all of us have been playing games more or less our entire lives! Just goes to show that it is never too late to learn new things xd and that terminology can differ in sub-communities! Amazing! I wonder if there are any other terms that we've hijacked and made "our own." 🤔😅
Anyways, with these new definitions in mind, I am quite used to all classes having at least one hard and one soft CC, so I did not really think anything about it (except that it is Super cool that they gave the mage sleep since that is a wizard thing in dnd as well!) I would imagine that was at least part of the inspiration since Steven (and many from his team) are TT-RPGS playesr as well. As for action/tab target oriented... I agree it would make more sense for sleep to be action targeted (but that is TTRPG me speaking).
To me, primary target is the selected target in a tab system. Secondary targets are not directly targeted and are akin to splash damage except sleep is a cc and not a damage skill.
The same applies to the lance - primary target and secondary targets via splash. The lance would be action combat or free aim though. Whether we get a lance is another matter.
I think we need to see more skill sets of classes and the sub class combinations to even start to guess what combat interactions will be like. CCs go back to the start of the MMOing. Games have balanced the ability before, so why can't IS? Im happy to see these make a return. Watching the Tank Play though, this game will have a slower tactical combat. This type of skill fits that play style. My guess, is we will see more of the same from other classes and their counters. IS has done a good job so far. Lets give them a min to show us what else goes with this.
It's interesting to see the different opinions on this ability for the Mage archetype. The Mage is still a WIP and many of the abilities are not completely polished and finished.
With that said, we also look forward to feedback once players are able to test the Mage, especially in some scenarios where people might be concerned, such as mass PvP, like sieges
Comments
Just ask anyone that goes clay target shooting.
Aren't we all sinners?
Do we have any information on the range of any second pass ability of any other class?
Range?? There is literaly no information regarding ANY second pass of A2 class skills yet , what they will be like by the start of A2 is unpredictable.
Aren't we all sinners?
I’d say as an Army veteran I’m a subject matter expert, don’t need to ask the clay shooters.
Your aim is where you place your crosshairs, and you don’t necessarily aim at your target. You track your target or you lead your shots when they move.
You aim at your target when you can hit center mass or a head shot.
That’s why I made that distinction.
But your target is still your target.
Since that is the point I am making, and since you are a "subject matter expert", I'd have to assume you agree.
Unless you want to try and say that the target you just talked about above isnt a target.
Yeah, this is why I'm not really making any comments as to balance as yet.
For all we know, standard range of other classes may be 50m, making this abilities 30m range fairly short.
I just said, with distinction. You just don’t always aim *at* your target.
Again, I think you are missing the point here.
The point you and I are discussing is the use of the word "target", we are not talking about leading a shot.
Hopefully bosses in pve are immune to slumber.
I mean, i said i won't judge it yet but i find it highly unlikely that "standard range of other classes may be 50m" other than literal Ranger, but sure, who knows.
Aren't we all sinners?
The target usually refers to the thing you intend to kill.
You don’t always aim at the thing you intend to kill.
But you always intend to kill your target.
That’s free aiming.
That’s a distinction that must be made, from tan target in that you must certainly be tabbed on your target in order to kill it in tab target.
yeah. we could also have waking scrolls and they would be dropped in the under realm hahaha, get it? xDDD
Yeah, but that isn't what we are talking about.
We are talking the use of the word "target" in the description of the ability.
For some reason, you have gone on some tangent about free aiming and leading your shot (as if leading your shot isn't a component of aiming, just as accounting for a ballistic arch is a part of targeting for weapons that require it).
Freely aiming an ability doesn't require a target.
Tab requires a target.
The tool tip is quite clear in that it requires a target.
This skill isn't exactly unique.
The skill says it requires a primary target, tab combat doesn't have primary or secondary targets.
Also, tab target doesn't always require a target. But you'd not know that based on the comments of some people.
Well here's it's demonstration clearly being done, showcasing exactly what the ability does in tab combat.
We were talking about the description of the ability.
Yes, clearly demonstrated at the time stamp.
It all checks out.
It's a tab hard CC.
Which the OP clearly wanted to know why it's tab instead of action.
Yeah, but that isn't what you and I are talking about.
The OP dealt with their own concern by posting that Intrepid said all hard CC *may be* housed in action oriented skills. Since *may be* also means *may not be*, there is nothing here to talk about.
However, again, that isn't what you and I were talking about.
I think target(s) is clear and succinct given the fact it's an AoE that's cast on a single target then hits the surrounding targets.
Unless you're struggling with understanding what a target is.
I think we should be clear at this point that I understand what a target is - both in tab target games, and in action games.
Again, in an action game, you have a target - it is the entity you wish to hit.
In a tab target game, where a target is an actual mechanic, you only have one target. The game mechanic only lets you have one target. As such, the game should only ever talk about one target in a tab target skill, not primary and secondary targets.
Back to action, the target is who ever you wish to hit. As such, there is no mechanic that designates a target for you, and so having primary and secondary targets in the description is perfectly fine.
If Ashes has a description of primary target on a tab target based ability, then Intrepid need to answer where the tab target mechanic allows for a secondary target - or change the wording.
Not the intended target, obviously, but rather ground zero.
The whole thing could be down to word choice of a dev juiced up on redbull.
I showed the responses to my friends and we're all quite shocked at these definitions of hard/soft CC! We've always used the terms "silence", "interrupt", "disarm" etc for what you guys refer to as soft CC.
And all of us have been playing games more or less our entire lives! Just goes to show that it is never too late to learn new things xd and that terminology can differ in sub-communities! Amazing! I wonder if there are any other terms that we've hijacked and made "our own." 🤔😅
Anyways, with these new definitions in mind, I am quite used to all classes having at least one hard and one soft CC, so I did not really think anything about it (except that it is Super cool that they gave the mage sleep since that is a wizard thing in dnd as well!) I would imagine that was at least part of the inspiration since Steven (and many from his team) are TT-RPGS playesr as well. As for action/tab target oriented... I agree it would make more sense for sleep to be action targeted (but that is TTRPG me speaking).
The same applies to the lance - primary target and secondary targets via splash. The lance would be action combat or free aim though. Whether we get a lance is another matter.
With that said, we also look forward to feedback once players are able to test the Mage, especially in some scenarios where people might be concerned, such as mass PvP, like sieges