If Steven would add brackets to prevent PvP interaction between players more than X levels apart, then I could see many levels and powerful gear twinks at each specific level interesting.
As it is now, the game and leveling is not meant to attract and satisfy players who like leveling but to deter players to have every weekend a different alt.
Do people have strong oppinions against brackets?
No brackets, they would be weird in ashes. But I could see larger disparity between the two combatants giving increased corruption penalty... If someone max level and high end gear is dunking on a level 10 player in starting gear I feel like they should be more heavily penalized.
They are that is how the system works, and lose power based on corruption penalty.
I know they've said this for level, but to bring it back to the topic of this OP, they could add gear to the equation. Instead of just level difference, have overall player power from any source play into it. If nothing else it pushes people towards at least fighting in their weight class not steamrolling over under geared underleveled people.
I don't see anything wrong with steam rolling over, or PvP. There will be pvp not tied to corruption and such as well. When it comes to pvp with corruption, point of the system is to reduce how often it will happen even more so when you are talking about higher levels of punishment.
I feel a lot of these corruption arguments or slaughtering lowbies is such a overblown concern when you look at the system they talked about, and the reality of players int he world. People are going to be in groups you aren't just going to be finding solo people. Meaning there will be more of a burden tied to even thinking of gaining corruption if your group doesn't want to go red. Even if you get the kill you end up losing more and dropping everything you obtained.
Not to mention the density of the server and how many other players will be around, seeing a red player and all attacking you.
Legit i feel some people think of pvp as 1v1 and that they will kill someone and be able to grid it off easy as if there aren't tons of other players around.
If Steven would add brackets to prevent PvP interaction between players more than X levels apart, then I could see many levels and powerful gear twinks at each specific level interesting.
As it is now, the game and leveling is not meant to attract and satisfy players who like leveling but to deter players to have every weekend a different alt.
Do people have strong oppinions against brackets?
No brackets, they would be weird in ashes. But I could see larger disparity between the two combatants giving increased corruption penalty... If someone max level and high end gear is dunking on a level 10 player in starting gear I feel like they should be more heavily penalized.
They are that is how the system works, and lose power based on corruption penalty.
I know they've said this for level, but to bring it back to the topic of this OP, they could add gear to the equation. Instead of just level difference, have overall player power from any source play into it. If nothing else it pushes people towards at least fighting in their weight class not steamrolling over under geared underleveled people.
How do you know if a player of your similar lv wears lesser gear than yours, since IS does not want gear inspection?
Why add this?
I wanted to ask a while ago but I forgot.
What is a lvl 35 or 40 gear?
How is related to lvl 35 and lvl 40 players?
Can lvl 40 gear have quality tiers? Epic, common, rare...
I wanted to ask a while ago but I forgot.
What is a lvl 35 or 40 gear?
How is related to lvl 35 and lvl 40 players?
Can lvl 40 gear have quality tiers? Epic, common, rare...
This sort of thing is fairly game dependent, so we don't actually know how it works in Ashes yet except that the level stuff exists, so there is gear you can only equip after you reach level 35, for example.
They might ask us for our feedback on it sometime.
If it is based on Lineage 2, as we're often told, then the gear will have a level requirement and also have a Quality Tier and then also have an Enhancement Level.
There are lots of ways to do it, depending on what they want the experience to be for players, how nostalgic, how 'modern', how 'rewarding' it is to get new gear specifically, vs getting Enhancing materials for the gear, vs getting Enchantment options for the gear...
The lower an opponent is in level to you, the more of a corruption hit you take if you kill them as a non-combatant.
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
If they want, they get flagged and any high level player who feels entitled to be in the area can impose his judgement and help win whichever side he wants.
If the game would have huge vertical progression, like 250 levels, players should be able to engage in all game content like sieges and even be caravan owners also at lvl 150.
Game content like dungeons should also unlock and lock again as you level. Then players would be interested to have alts at lvl 150 if some dungeons are accessible only for [110 - 150] bracket.
Because nodes belong to all players I do not see how node sieges could work for a lvl 150 twink without pushing him in support position.
AoC has chosen a short leveling phase and dungeons will be tied to node level and type. Makes no sense to be worried much about lvl 25 players as long as they can continue leveling and in only 4 weeks can be efficient in any kind of PvP event.
The lower an opponent is in level to you, the more of a corruption hit you take if you kill them as a non-combatant.
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
If they want, they get flagged and any high level player who feels entitled to be in the area can impose his judgement and help win whichever side he wants.
If the game would have huge vertical progression, like 250 levels, players should be able to engage in all game content like sieges and even be caravan owners also at lvl 150.
Game content like dungeons should also unlock and lock again as you level. Then players would be interested to have alts at lvl 150 if some dungeons are accessible only for [110 - 150] bracket.
Because nodes belong to all players I do not see how node sieges could work for a lvl 150 twink without pushing him in support position.
AoC has chosen a short leveling phase and dungeons will be tied to node level and type. Makes no sense to be worried much about lvl 25 players as long as they can continue leveling and in only 4 weeks can be efficient in any kind of PvP event.
There are games where the power from the later levels is less specifically important than the early levels.
This is mostly because of the way that stats rise when you level up. If Ashes' leveling curve for stats is the type that doesn't just give more stats as you get closer to max level, or give a lot of power for leveling up just your gear, then the character's level won't be as important as their friendship and allies.
Basically, if you want your low level friends to be effective enough, in some games you just have to give them good gear for their level. And in those same games, this helps to create a demand for that gear.
It also helps to get players who want to use alts, because they can rely more on their experience and ability to buy good gear.
It's all up to what Steven wants the game to feel like.
The lower an opponent is in level to you, the more of a corruption hit you take if you kill them as a non-combatant.
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
If they want, they get flagged and any high level player who feels entitled to be in the area can impose his judgement and help win whichever side he wants.
If the game would have huge vertical progression, like 250 levels, players should be able to engage in all game content like sieges and even be caravan owners also at lvl 150.
Game content like dungeons should also unlock and lock again as you level. Then players would be interested to have alts at lvl 150 if some dungeons are accessible only for [110 - 150] bracket.
Because nodes belong to all players I do not see how node sieges could work for a lvl 150 twink without pushing him in support position.
AoC has chosen a short leveling phase and dungeons will be tied to node level and type. Makes no sense to be worried much about lvl 25 players as long as they can continue leveling and in only 4 weeks can be efficient in any kind of PvP event.
There are games where the power from the later levels is less specifically important than the early levels.
This is mostly because of the way that stats rise when you level up. If Ashes' leveling curve for stats is the type that doesn't just give more stats as you get closer to max level, or give a lot of power for leveling up just your gear, then the character's level won't be as important as their friendship and allies.
Basically, if you want your low level friends to be effective enough, in some games you just have to give them good gear for their level. And in those same games, this helps to create a demand for that gear.
It also helps to get players who want to use alts, because they can rely more on their experience and ability to buy good gear.
It's all up to what Steven wants the game to feel like.
I understand. And Steven has chosen this kind of game progression many years ago when he imagined the nodes and their roles, no fast travel, open world with content accessible to all levels...
I feel sorry for George but is too late now to change things if they also want to finish Alpha 2 in a reasonable time.
The lower an opponent is in level to you, the more of a corruption hit you take if you kill them as a non-combatant.
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
If they want, they get flagged and any high level player who feels entitled to be in the area can impose his judgement and help win whichever side he wants.
If the game would have huge vertical progression, like 250 levels, players should be able to engage in all game content like sieges and even be caravan owners also at lvl 150.
Game content like dungeons should also unlock and lock again as you level. Then players would be interested to have alts at lvl 150 if some dungeons are accessible only for [110 - 150] bracket.
Because nodes belong to all players I do not see how node sieges could work for a lvl 150 twink without pushing him in support position.
AoC has chosen a short leveling phase and dungeons will be tied to node level and type. Makes no sense to be worried much about lvl 25 players as long as they can continue leveling and in only 4 weeks can be efficient in any kind of PvP event.
There are games where the power from the later levels is less specifically important than the early levels.
This is mostly because of the way that stats rise when you level up. If Ashes' leveling curve for stats is the type that doesn't just give more stats as you get closer to max level, or give a lot of power for leveling up just your gear, then the character's level won't be as important as their friendship and allies.
Basically, if you want your low level friends to be effective enough, in some games you just have to give them good gear for their level. And in those same games, this helps to create a demand for that gear.
It also helps to get players who want to use alts, because they can rely more on their experience and ability to buy good gear.
It's all up to what Steven wants the game to feel like.
I understand. And Steven has chosen this kind of game progression many years ago when he imagined the nodes and their roles, no fast travel, open world with content accessible to all levels...
I feel sorry for George but is too late now to change things if they also want to finish Alpha 2 in a reasonable time.
I don't think we can be sure that Steven made any decisions on this part of the progression yet.
We even asked, some time ago, if they were sure about the things like the base stats they were going to use in Combat, but I don't think they were finalized enough yet for Steven to share the vision on it.
I'd say that most of the models would work fine in Ashes, based on what we know about how Ashes' game flow works, which is honestly very little.
I think the only one that wouldn't work is the BDO style where all gear is equippable from level 1 and can just be Enhanced, and that's only because of the same corruption issues (and obviously Steven already told us that we aren't getting this type).
I wanted to ask a while ago but I forgot.
What is a lvl 35 or 40 gear?
How is related to lvl 35 and lvl 40 players?
Can lvl 40 gear have quality tiers? Epic, common, rare...
This sort of thing is fairly game dependent, so we don't actually know how it works in Ashes yet except that the level stuff exists, so there is gear you can only equip after you reach level 35, for example.
They might ask us for our feedback on it sometime.
If it is based on Lineage 2, as we're often told, then the gear will have a level requirement and also have a Quality Tier and then also have an Enhancement Level.
There are lots of ways to do it, depending on what they want the experience to be for players, how nostalgic, how 'modern', how 'rewarding' it is to get new gear specifically, vs getting Enhancing materials for the gear, vs getting Enchantment options for the gear...
Oh I see. Thanks for clarifying to me.
So something like Diablo 4.
Most players will be at lvl 50.
They will be able to use common gear, specific to their level if that is better than rare gear they had at lvl 49.
Chances are that level X common gear will not be better than level X-1 rare/epic gear.
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
Corruption is the deterrent players not wanting to PvP use.
The increase in corruption the greater the level gap is a mechanic designed specifically to give players pause before attacking a lower level player. It also gives lower level players more of a reason to not fight players of a higher level.
So, it encourages players to not attack lower level players, and also encourages lower level players to not fight back against higher levels. This isn't a hard bracket, obviously, as it doesn't outright prevent it - but it absolutely is a form of soft bracketing.
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
Corruption is the deterrent players not wanting to PvP use.
The increase in corruption the greater the level gap is a mechanic designed specifically to give players pause before attacking a lower level player. It also gives lower level players more of a reason to not fight players of a higher level.
So, it encourages players to not attack lower level players, and also encourages lower level players to not fight back against higher levels. This isn't a hard bracket, obviously, as it doesn't outright prevent it - but it absolutely is a form of soft bracketing.
Yes. I like it also because Bounty Hunters might have a job to do.
So a few of us were reading through this thread and found it pretty interesting! We wanted to push the conversation over to Discord to hear some thoughts on the subject there.
Some interesting opinions on this topic go beyond its relevancy to MMORPGs! Personally, I think this question sparks some other interesting questions. For example, how much should skill expression make a difference? Or general game knowledge/"game-sense"?
I play a lot of LOL, and found myself thinking about this question while playing. Perhaps some of you have examples from other games where game-sense, knowledge, gear, skill, etc is or should be the most important factor for winning? Or perhaps is but you feel shouldn't be.
HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'll take an opposing view to this request. I believe 40% power should be about right for gear. I don't want the game to turn into solely gear based victory.
I believe player skill and their knowledge of skill mechanics should be a factor.
I'd also like for there to be some player agency for the choices characters made when speccing their talent trees and choosing what skills to use on their action hot bar as there wont be room for all of them. So that not everyone is pigeon holed into optimal specs due to gear constraints on power.
Well, skill matters and it beats meta as well.
Speaking of other games, back in 2007 or so me and Max were playing dota with other friends.
He was playing earthshaker. The meta was dagger mana ring refreah orb to play off the ultimate and skills, as a caster.
He would build buriza and play as a warrior, rely on hits for dmg with the skills mostly for CC. The resto of us had the dmg and atk speed to 0 everything.
The early meta for TB was lothars abd dagon. I found it lame and I'd just solo top with life drain, build boots first item then skadi for balanced stats and chase. Then travel and apply pressure to all lanes.
No SnY, no wraiths.
In eso I played stamDK dw/dw no meta sets, no 2h, no SnB. In a game that gear is 100% of the power, I chose not to rely on gear one bit.
Just skill.
I made the post out of a concern for cheap gear bypassing the biggest PK punishment. Since I follow AoC from 2017 or so, I know about the rest PK punishments.
Gear offering 50% power is too little. Content will be skipped, zones, dungeons, mobs that offer good parts for top gear between the lvs of 1-45 will be skipped.
Players will rush to 50 and get top tier gear only there.
Cheap gear will be used for PK, since both top and low contribute only 50% of the power.
Most forum users dont read the OP, or believe themselves better than others thus assuming ulterior motives. Maybe simply they cant put 2 and 2 together.
They are disrespectful, but as long as they keep it light-hearted they can go off-topic, derail and bait for angry responses.
Many ppl here talked about skill, but I saw nothing but complainers.
A skilled person beats someone of higher lv with better gear and celebrates.
The unknown cleric beats the servers top cleric based on pure skill.
If he loses he doesnt say a word. He doesnt say "better gear saved my enemy".
Those that are afraid of enemies with better gear will never be winners.
My guild will adapt and make use of the low impact that gear has on character output and we will have PK squads ready to take out any competituon while raiding in the open world. Cheap gear will be used and easily replaced.
No ulterior motive, no need to be carried by gear. We got what it takes. We have done it before.
The rest can skim read posts and farm likes all they want.
Gear offering 50% power is too little. Content will be skipped, zones, dungeons, mobs that offer good parts for top gear between the lvs of 1-45 will be skipped.
Players will rush to 50 and get top tier gear only there.
And what if gear and pve is not just about vertical stats? What if pve requires specific horizontal stats that only certain pieces/sets of gear can provide?
So only your PKing "issue" would remain, but it would always remain unless gear determined 100% of player power, so there's no issue left with the current design
I do agree with the content skip part, if gear doesn't matter as much power wise and more about skill, you technically could do the end game raids and go back and do the other stuff much easier.
You would have to do things different so they aren't skipped, and lean into heavily what dygz was saying needing certain gear types to have higher dmg values against certain npc mobs and such.
At the same time having more power means you get to breeze through other content in the game once you out gear it.
The skill to gear thing as well, we would need to know how much element of player skill can benefit in combat. And how much is tab where you immensely reduce the element skill without needing to aim. Which goes back to me saying there needs o be benefits for people who use action oriented skills.
50% I think will be fine if we are looking at it in some form of context. A 50% for a lvl 50 is not the same as 50% for a lvl 40 in terms of total power. Power increase isn't just going to be a liner fashion as if it is some sort of survival game.
A level 50 working to get max out of that 50% power would take them a very lone while of min maxing and gear progression. Where a lvl 49 would get their 50% a lot easier, and a lvl 30 would have no challenge in getting the max of their 50% if they just have the gear.
Leaning into mobs having weakness's and needing special dmg types to deal with them, and other mechanics that can be server wide requiring other challenges to be finished and special gear obtained. Would make it so you don't just skip everything in order to be more difficult encounters that progress during large and small events / dungeon growth etc.
*ie special gear, enhancement (horizontal progression), special buffs obtained from doing previous events, special items, etc.
Ultimately this is a game and not a movie, so player skill should be most important rather than observing the character/gear do the work for you. If you want to watch a character do cool stuff that you can't do, then watch a movie. Thats my opinion at least.
I did a lot of skimming of this thread just to be clear. But I mostly agree with Nikr. I understand where George is coming from though I think.
It's about balance Intrepid. You have to balance the fact that most pvp in games benefits from having the power level of competing players equalized, with the fact that your game is a competitive progression MMO and therefore cannot be equalized.
There has to be a certain separation of power/gear gaps in players to give players something to strive for, to create competition, to propel the economy, to propel the game loops, and to create different tiers of pve difficulty.
So achieve those goals and then chill. There's not much need to go further with the gear gaps once the core goals have been achieved. Going further would only create unnecessary, lopsided pvp encounters between competing players. And it will create an ever worsening snowball effect for players at the top.
You can't help the 3 hour a week casuals, they're hopeless. But what you can do is look at the data of the gear distribution of the players of your game. It will probably look like a bell curve. At the top of the bell, perhaps favoring the right downslope, is your average player. They put in a decent amount of time in the game and they're players of average to above average competency.
They should not be farm status for players at the top, strictly based on gear. All I can say is that the top geared players should have a meaningful, noticeable but not overwhelming advantage against the tier of players below them, and so on for the next tier below. I can't quantify it in any other way right now than that vague generality.
My main advice to you Intrepid would be, don't listen to the players. Study the gear gaps that other competitive MMOs have used, and the effect that they had. Remember that p2w is not the true problem. It is the gear/power gap that p2w games allow you to buy that is the problem.
I think you'll find that the question answers itself without much need for feedback from players.
Most of the pages of replies all glaze over the gear power gap, as if its strictly a vertical progression of stats.
Assuming two sides playing the same class, same gear loadout with different power levels solely based on gear.
But the way I see it, this game is PvX, it is not only about the pvp that is going to happen and the PK wearing lower gear hoping to find people that dont fight back.
From the PvE half of the game, there is really a lot of potential here if gear has meaningful impact on playstyle.
I am truly hoping for more depth in the game from my gearing options so its not so... vertical and stale and I play the same build same skill use priority all the time because gear power is always vertical.
I want to see different skills of the same class impacted by different stats. So if I lean heavily in to one kind of gear stats, my build favors me using one set of skills more than a different one. So when the season changes I can change my gear, to play the same class but different skills are more useful then to benefit from the new state of the world.
I want to walk into a dungeon, notice the environment is heavily tilted towards a certain way, and be able to change my gear to adjust my stats to favor the skillset that works best in there.
And for this kind of RPG gameplay, gear MUST matter, and be at least half of the character power, so that changing my stats around has a meaningful impact on my playstyle.
It shouldnt just be that I put on stronger gear so I can do enough damage to kill a enemy before it kills me, that can be handled by primary stats. Like vitality, and strength (for a fighter class for example), but the secondary or tertiary stats need to matter enough that they impact my playstyle as the world or environment changes.
So a few of us were reading through this thread and found it pretty interesting! We wanted to push the conversation over to Discord to hear some thoughts on the subject there.
Some interesting opinions on this topic go beyond its relevancy to MMORPGs! Personally, I think this question sparks some other interesting questions. For example, how much should skill expression make a difference? Or general game knowledge/"game-sense"?
I play a lot of LOL, and found myself thinking about this question while playing. Perhaps some of you have examples from other games where game-sense, knowledge, gear, skill, etc is or should be the most important factor for winning? Or perhaps is but you feel shouldn't be.
Well, there you go, @Raven016, 'sometime' has arrived.
It's not a direct form of the question I was referring to at the time, but it's definitely related.
I think my Discord is bugging out, so I can't see anything at that link, presumably until I fix it, but it probably has a guided feedback trend, if our hardworking (overworking?) CM team was actually present for it, so just roll with that?
Obviously I have too many opinions, but fortunately, just reading the timeline of Predecessor patch notes should let you know exactly where I am and my thought processes on skill expression, knowledge, gear, skill, etc.
And no, as far as anyone is concerned, I am absolutely not claiming to be involved in doing that balance, so just ignore any similar names, ways of presenting information, etc.
But you can also always assume that I agree with every idea and decision, down to the minutiae, for some reason
Just because two very similar people come to extremely similar conclusions isn't a sign that they are the same person, it's just convergent evolution of systems relative to goals.
Gear offering 50% power is too little. Content will be skipped, zones, dungeons, mobs that offer good parts for top gear between the lvs of 1-45 will be skipped.
Players will rush to 50 and get top tier gear only there.
Cheap gear will be used for PK, since both top and low contribute only 50% of the power.
Most forum users dont read the OP, or believe themselves better than others thus assuming ulterior motives.
Yes, so the main concern is that 'content will be skipped'.
You want to slow down player progression.
Wiki states:
Players will have the option to rush their vertical progression to level cap or spend time building infrastructure through horizontal progression.[4][2][5][6]
On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.[17][18]
Intrepid Studio must balance the effort and time to find needed gear while leveling in such a way to allow players to complete the content in 45 days.
Because they have limited content and that will be distributed more after lvl 50 is reached, unlocked by different metropolises.
As nodes advance and expand they will influence nearby points-of-interest such as dungeon bosses, regional bosses and Raid bosses.[13]
Multiple nearby nodes may collectively influence larger POIs.[14]
Slowing down the leveling to be more than 45 days requires either more content or more time to be spent in the leveling content intended for 45 days.
But more than 45 days is not needed really if we want to play the caravan and siege content too.
I prefer when player power is based on 3 things. First, on knowledge of the game (that in mind, the game should have complex and dynamic systems and mechanics like dungeons, raids mechanics, etc.) Second, on player's reacting time to press button and managing their cooldowns and skills/potions. Lastly, the gear and different power consumable items.
There has to be a certain separation of power/gear gaps in players to give players something to strive for, to create competition, to propel the economy, to propel the game loops, and to create different tiers of pve difficulty.
So achieve those goals and then chill. There's not much need to go further with the gear gaps once the core goals have been achieved. Going further would only create unnecessary, lopsided pvp encounters between competing players. And it will create an ever worsening snowball effect for players at the top.
But that's exactly what they won't achieve if trash gear is almost as good as top end gear. And PKers will have a field day because they don't have to risk their good gear to be effective in PvP.
PKers risk more than gear though. They risk stat dampening, to the point that they become useless, as well as XP debt. What I’m not certain on is if XP debt can lower your overall level if it reaches too high. If it doesn’t, then those at max level don’t need to be concerned about XP loss, and just gear loss and stat dampening that doesn’t go away until the corruption is “worked off”.
George does make a solid point about PK squads just using low-tier gear they aren't concerned about losing to wipe greens off the map. Eventually, they hit a point where they can't PK anymore until they work that debt off. This process is something I'm sure will be thoroughly tested during A2 to find the right balance of corruption gained versus corruption lost.
I still believe that skill should outweigh gear, but it should be a very close balance. If you take skill, gear, and character level as the three points to balance around, then:
Skill: 43%
Gear: 37%
Level: 20%
I'd like to test this ratio and see how it works. Character level I'm the least concerned about it, mainly because most players that are continually playing the game are going to be at max level within 3-4 months of starting. Likewise, gear closely correlates with level, assuming gear is tied behind character level too.
Someone had mentioned the power level of low-tier gear versus high-tier gear. I think this also has an important weight to consider within the gear percentage. I.E. BiS gear will give you the full 37%, whereas low-tier gear is only giving 10% instead of the full 37%.
I believe skill CAN still be weighed more heavily than gear if the power increase from low-tier gear to high-tier gear is weighted appropriately. I.E. gear becomes exponentially more powerful (but still within that 37%) the higher tier is it. I believe this solves the issue of PK squads using low-tier gear to try and murder greens while still keeping one's skill more relevant if the other two categories equal out (or are close to equaling out).
Comments
I don't see anything wrong with steam rolling over, or PvP. There will be pvp not tied to corruption and such as well. When it comes to pvp with corruption, point of the system is to reduce how often it will happen even more so when you are talking about higher levels of punishment.
I feel a lot of these corruption arguments or slaughtering lowbies is such a overblown concern when you look at the system they talked about, and the reality of players int he world. People are going to be in groups you aren't just going to be finding solo people. Meaning there will be more of a burden tied to even thinking of gaining corruption if your group doesn't want to go red. Even if you get the kill you end up losing more and dropping everything you obtained.
Not to mention the density of the server and how many other players will be around, seeing a red player and all attacking you.
Legit i feel some people think of pvp as 1v1 and that they will kill someone and be able to grid it off easy as if there aren't tons of other players around.
Ashes essentially has soft brackets.
The lower an opponent is in level to you, the more of a corruption hit you take if you kill them as a non-combatant.
How do you know if a player of your similar lv wears lesser gear than yours, since IS does not want gear inspection?
Why add this?
What is a lvl 35 or 40 gear?
How is related to lvl 35 and lvl 40 players?
Can lvl 40 gear have quality tiers? Epic, common, rare...
This sort of thing is fairly game dependent, so we don't actually know how it works in Ashes yet except that the level stuff exists, so there is gear you can only equip after you reach level 35, for example.
They might ask us for our feedback on it sometime.
If it is based on Lineage 2, as we're often told, then the gear will have a level requirement and also have a Quality Tier and then also have an Enhancement Level.
There are lots of ways to do it, depending on what they want the experience to be for players, how nostalgic, how 'modern', how 'rewarding' it is to get new gear specifically, vs getting Enhancing materials for the gear, vs getting Enchantment options for the gear...
Yes but does not really work as brackets. It works to protect players who do not want to PvP.
If they want, they get flagged and any high level player who feels entitled to be in the area can impose his judgement and help win whichever side he wants.
If the game would have huge vertical progression, like 250 levels, players should be able to engage in all game content like sieges and even be caravan owners also at lvl 150.
Game content like dungeons should also unlock and lock again as you level. Then players would be interested to have alts at lvl 150 if some dungeons are accessible only for [110 - 150] bracket.
Because nodes belong to all players I do not see how node sieges could work for a lvl 150 twink without pushing him in support position.
AoC has chosen a short leveling phase and dungeons will be tied to node level and type. Makes no sense to be worried much about lvl 25 players as long as they can continue leveling and in only 4 weeks can be efficient in any kind of PvP event.
There are games where the power from the later levels is less specifically important than the early levels.
This is mostly because of the way that stats rise when you level up. If Ashes' leveling curve for stats is the type that doesn't just give more stats as you get closer to max level, or give a lot of power for leveling up just your gear, then the character's level won't be as important as their friendship and allies.
Basically, if you want your low level friends to be effective enough, in some games you just have to give them good gear for their level. And in those same games, this helps to create a demand for that gear.
It also helps to get players who want to use alts, because they can rely more on their experience and ability to buy good gear.
It's all up to what Steven wants the game to feel like.
I understand. And Steven has chosen this kind of game progression many years ago when he imagined the nodes and their roles, no fast travel, open world with content accessible to all levels...
I feel sorry for George but is too late now to change things if they also want to finish Alpha 2 in a reasonable time.
I don't think we can be sure that Steven made any decisions on this part of the progression yet.
We even asked, some time ago, if they were sure about the things like the base stats they were going to use in Combat, but I don't think they were finalized enough yet for Steven to share the vision on it.
I'd say that most of the models would work fine in Ashes, based on what we know about how Ashes' game flow works, which is honestly very little.
I think the only one that wouldn't work is the BDO style where all gear is equippable from level 1 and can just be Enhanced, and that's only because of the same corruption issues (and obviously Steven already told us that we aren't getting this type).
Oh I see. Thanks for clarifying to me.
So something like Diablo 4.
Most players will be at lvl 50.
They will be able to use common gear, specific to their level if that is better than rare gear they had at lvl 49.
Chances are that level X common gear will not be better than level X-1 rare/epic gear.
Corruption is the deterrent players not wanting to PvP use.
The increase in corruption the greater the level gap is a mechanic designed specifically to give players pause before attacking a lower level player. It also gives lower level players more of a reason to not fight players of a higher level.
So, it encourages players to not attack lower level players, and also encourages lower level players to not fight back against higher levels. This isn't a hard bracket, obviously, as it doesn't outright prevent it - but it absolutely is a form of soft bracketing.
Yes. I like it also because Bounty Hunters might have a job to do.
I wanted to pop that Discord link here, so you can see the conversations, and add your thoughts here! https://discord.com/channels/256164085366915072/256164085366915072/1161798100793438309
Some interesting opinions on this topic go beyond its relevancy to MMORPGs! Personally, I think this question sparks some other interesting questions. For example, how much should skill expression make a difference? Or general game knowledge/"game-sense"?
I play a lot of LOL, and found myself thinking about this question while playing. Perhaps some of you have examples from other games where game-sense, knowledge, gear, skill, etc is or should be the most important factor for winning? Or perhaps is but you feel shouldn't be.
I believe player skill and their knowledge of skill mechanics should be a factor.
I'd also like for there to be some player agency for the choices characters made when speccing their talent trees and choosing what skills to use on their action hot bar as there wont be room for all of them. So that not everyone is pigeon holed into optimal specs due to gear constraints on power.
Speaking of other games, back in 2007 or so me and Max were playing dota with other friends.
He was playing earthshaker. The meta was dagger mana ring refreah orb to play off the ultimate and skills, as a caster.
He would build buriza and play as a warrior, rely on hits for dmg with the skills mostly for CC. The resto of us had the dmg and atk speed to 0 everything.
The early meta for TB was lothars abd dagon. I found it lame and I'd just solo top with life drain, build boots first item then skadi for balanced stats and chase. Then travel and apply pressure to all lanes.
No SnY, no wraiths.
In eso I played stamDK dw/dw no meta sets, no 2h, no SnB. In a game that gear is 100% of the power, I chose not to rely on gear one bit.
Just skill.
I made the post out of a concern for cheap gear bypassing the biggest PK punishment. Since I follow AoC from 2017 or so, I know about the rest PK punishments.
Gear offering 50% power is too little. Content will be skipped, zones, dungeons, mobs that offer good parts for top gear between the lvs of 1-45 will be skipped.
Players will rush to 50 and get top tier gear only there.
Cheap gear will be used for PK, since both top and low contribute only 50% of the power.
Most forum users dont read the OP, or believe themselves better than others thus assuming ulterior motives. Maybe simply they cant put 2 and 2 together.
They are disrespectful, but as long as they keep it light-hearted they can go off-topic, derail and bait for angry responses.
Many ppl here talked about skill, but I saw nothing but complainers.
A skilled person beats someone of higher lv with better gear and celebrates.
The unknown cleric beats the servers top cleric based on pure skill.
If he loses he doesnt say a word. He doesnt say "better gear saved my enemy".
Those that are afraid of enemies with better gear will never be winners.
My guild will adapt and make use of the low impact that gear has on character output and we will have PK squads ready to take out any competituon while raiding in the open world. Cheap gear will be used and easily replaced.
No ulterior motive, no need to be carried by gear. We got what it takes. We have done it before.
The rest can skim read posts and farm likes all they want.
So only your PKing "issue" would remain, but it would always remain unless gear determined 100% of player power, so there's no issue left with the current design
You would have to do things different so they aren't skipped, and lean into heavily what dygz was saying needing certain gear types to have higher dmg values against certain npc mobs and such.
At the same time having more power means you get to breeze through other content in the game once you out gear it.
The skill to gear thing as well, we would need to know how much element of player skill can benefit in combat. And how much is tab where you immensely reduce the element skill without needing to aim. Which goes back to me saying there needs o be benefits for people who use action oriented skills.
50% I think will be fine if we are looking at it in some form of context. A 50% for a lvl 50 is not the same as 50% for a lvl 40 in terms of total power. Power increase isn't just going to be a liner fashion as if it is some sort of survival game.
A level 50 working to get max out of that 50% power would take them a very lone while of min maxing and gear progression. Where a lvl 49 would get their 50% a lot easier, and a lvl 30 would have no challenge in getting the max of their 50% if they just have the gear.
Leaning into mobs having weakness's and needing special dmg types to deal with them, and other mechanics that can be server wide requiring other challenges to be finished and special gear obtained. Would make it so you don't just skip everything in order to be more difficult encounters that progress during large and small events / dungeon growth etc.
*ie special gear, enhancement (horizontal progression), special buffs obtained from doing previous events, special items, etc.
It's about balance Intrepid. You have to balance the fact that most pvp in games benefits from having the power level of competing players equalized, with the fact that your game is a competitive progression MMO and therefore cannot be equalized.
There has to be a certain separation of power/gear gaps in players to give players something to strive for, to create competition, to propel the economy, to propel the game loops, and to create different tiers of pve difficulty.
So achieve those goals and then chill. There's not much need to go further with the gear gaps once the core goals have been achieved. Going further would only create unnecessary, lopsided pvp encounters between competing players. And it will create an ever worsening snowball effect for players at the top.
You can't help the 3 hour a week casuals, they're hopeless. But what you can do is look at the data of the gear distribution of the players of your game. It will probably look like a bell curve. At the top of the bell, perhaps favoring the right downslope, is your average player. They put in a decent amount of time in the game and they're players of average to above average competency.
They should not be farm status for players at the top, strictly based on gear. All I can say is that the top geared players should have a meaningful, noticeable but not overwhelming advantage against the tier of players below them, and so on for the next tier below. I can't quantify it in any other way right now than that vague generality.
My main advice to you Intrepid would be, don't listen to the players. Study the gear gaps that other competitive MMOs have used, and the effect that they had. Remember that p2w is not the true problem. It is the gear/power gap that p2w games allow you to buy that is the problem.
I think you'll find that the question answers itself without much need for feedback from players.
Assuming two sides playing the same class, same gear loadout with different power levels solely based on gear.
But the way I see it, this game is PvX, it is not only about the pvp that is going to happen and the PK wearing lower gear hoping to find people that dont fight back.
From the PvE half of the game, there is really a lot of potential here if gear has meaningful impact on playstyle.
I am truly hoping for more depth in the game from my gearing options so its not so... vertical and stale and I play the same build same skill use priority all the time because gear power is always vertical.
I want to see different skills of the same class impacted by different stats. So if I lean heavily in to one kind of gear stats, my build favors me using one set of skills more than a different one. So when the season changes I can change my gear, to play the same class but different skills are more useful then to benefit from the new state of the world.
I want to walk into a dungeon, notice the environment is heavily tilted towards a certain way, and be able to change my gear to adjust my stats to favor the skillset that works best in there.
And for this kind of RPG gameplay, gear MUST matter, and be at least half of the character power, so that changing my stats around has a meaningful impact on my playstyle.
It shouldnt just be that I put on stronger gear so I can do enough damage to kill a enemy before it kills me, that can be handled by primary stats. Like vitality, and strength (for a fighter class for example), but the secondary or tertiary stats need to matter enough that they impact my playstyle as the world or environment changes.
Well, there you go, @Raven016, 'sometime' has arrived.
It's not a direct form of the question I was referring to at the time, but it's definitely related.
I think my Discord is bugging out, so I can't see anything at that link, presumably until I fix it, but it probably has a guided feedback trend, if our hardworking (overworking?) CM team was actually present for it, so just roll with that?
Obviously I have too many opinions, but fortunately, just reading the timeline of Predecessor patch notes should let you know exactly where I am and my thought processes on skill expression, knowledge, gear, skill, etc.
And no, as far as anyone is concerned, I am absolutely not claiming to be involved in doing that balance, so just ignore any similar names, ways of presenting information, etc.
But you can also always assume that I agree with every idea and decision, down to the minutiae, for some reason
Just because two very similar people come to extremely similar conclusions isn't a sign that they are the same person, it's just convergent evolution of systems relative to goals.
~Rei, definitely not the same Rei.
Yes, so the main concern is that 'content will be skipped'.
You want to slow down player progression.
Wiki states:
Players will have the option to rush their vertical progression to level cap or spend time building infrastructure through horizontal progression.[4][2][5][6]
On release the developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if playing 4-6 hours per day.[17][18]
Intrepid Studio must balance the effort and time to find needed gear while leveling in such a way to allow players to complete the content in 45 days.
Because they have limited content and that will be distributed more after lvl 50 is reached, unlocked by different metropolises.
As nodes advance and expand they will influence nearby points-of-interest such as dungeon bosses, regional bosses and Raid bosses.[13]
Multiple nearby nodes may collectively influence larger POIs.[14]
Slowing down the leveling to be more than 45 days requires either more content or more time to be spent in the leveling content intended for 45 days.
But more than 45 days is not needed really if we want to play the caravan and siege content too.
The case for gear to provide more than 40-50% of a characters power.
Gear power between players must balanced to fulfill these requirements:
The Ashes of Creation MMORPG will have a time-to-kill (TTK) of around 30 seconds to a minute.[1]
The time-to-kill needs to be strategic and tactical.[2] – Steven Sharif
You could say there was a guided feedback trend, overall.
Got no responses to any of it though, personally. Just a different tendency I guess.
I still believe that skill should outweigh gear, but it should be a very close balance. If you take skill, gear, and character level as the three points to balance around, then:
Skill: 43%
Gear: 37%
Level: 20%
I'd like to test this ratio and see how it works. Character level I'm the least concerned about it, mainly because most players that are continually playing the game are going to be at max level within 3-4 months of starting. Likewise, gear closely correlates with level, assuming gear is tied behind character level too.
Someone had mentioned the power level of low-tier gear versus high-tier gear. I think this also has an important weight to consider within the gear percentage. I.E. BiS gear will give you the full 37%, whereas low-tier gear is only giving 10% instead of the full 37%.
I believe skill CAN still be weighed more heavily than gear if the power increase from low-tier gear to high-tier gear is weighted appropriately. I.E. gear becomes exponentially more powerful (but still within that 37%) the higher tier is it. I believe this solves the issue of PK squads using low-tier gear to try and murder greens while still keeping one's skill more relevant if the other two categories equal out (or are close to equaling out).