Who would you rather fight back? Someone who does 10 dmg to you, or someone who does 100?
It doesn't matter in this convo, because that would no longer be PKing. The entire thing is about PKing. Those who fight back, would fight back in majority of cases, because they're fine with pvping and/or want to lose less stuff if they do die.
But those who don't fight back won't care if they're getting hit for a hundred of for 10.
Ah dropped from 100 to 90.
Covering all your bases I see.
100% was in the context of your suggestion working, because it would only work then. But at that point it would circle back to not working, because the 1%s will never lose their gear due to them being unkillable. And with them never losing gear, there'd be no point in them caring about corruption or who/when they PK.
You claim that I don't read/understand your posts, but you seem to be doing the same.
@NiKr No, I said that when using gear from my lower lvls for example from when I was lv30. If I am able to do considerable dmg with that to a target in basic lv50 gear or more then there's a problem.
It's not about the target dying. It's that this way I'm abusing a system without being punished while my targets have to deal with me and my other 2 friends. The fight is unfair, it's not even a fight once the attention is on the severely undergeared less than a party side. But if I am at the point of dropping gear, I wouldn't care. I'd simply come again and again. The target party of 8 ie on the other hand, suffers. They can't properly focus on what they were doing. In the case of no help coming, or until it arrives to deal with the matter, the given party has to deal with insects. And once dealt with, nobody said they won't come again.
So what is the value of gear in the first place if someone can pull that off? The reasons of pk are irrelevant. It might be all of the mentioned above. The exploits are what matters, right?
If gear isn't dropped then what is the punishment?
If gear is dropped, the OP still has a point.
Lastly, pk shouldn't be a first or last option. It should just be an option. The order of options should be subject to change, will u not agree on that?
As I mentioned earlier if a pk system is too punishing then most will avoid it. If it becomes a last resort then it loses its value and power. When someone refuses to fight me and instead just gets in my way then I should pk. If that person comes again and still refuses to fight but just messes with my pve in a number of ways because he likes that spot, do I keep pk kill him? To what end?
I have experienced this for hours. Peaceful conquering or some sht. If your last resort doesn't work then you got no other options.
This needs to be balanced with the other end, namely pk exploitation.
One idea is the gear importance in pvp as mentioned in OP.
I like the cc not working on green targets. However, if I just pked someone who acted as a bait for some time to provoke me enough to pk him, then the next moment his friends rush me the lack of cc is against the pk acting as a solution or option. Maybe it too should be applied after a set amount of pk counts. Or something else?
@NiKr Yes pkers will still pk , but the whole point is they are less effective at pking unless they are using better gear. This allows lower levels to have a higher chance to get away as well as the risk of people pking corrupted players and having the gear drop.
You can't just look at it from one side, no one is doing to deny a pker will still pk no matter what if they are that out there. But there are a lot of factors that come into play and certain benchmarks that affect player mentality.
There must be someone watching all of this and say "what the f... am I reading here".
Could be me.
Thanks for the Explanation, though. Although i doubt very much, we will see People often who fight against each other,
and are " equal in ALL Aspects " - because that is VEEERYYYY unlikely in a Game with constant Action.
It would need to be :
- Two People of the same Class
- Level
- Situation
- Mental State of Mind
- Skill in how to use their Character
- Tactics they want to use on each other, to beat the other Player
With the ONLY DIFFERENCE - being their Difference in Gear.
How often does this actually happen ingame ? About One Time out of a Million, perhaps.
Usually one Player is weakened by a Mob : or doesn't have a healing Potion and the other one does. Or has some other Element of Advantage or Disadvantage against the other Guy.
Equal in all Points - EXCEPT the Power of the Gear ?
This is to naive. This would assume, that both Players want " to fight fair ", for Example.
MUAHAHAHAHAH. Fairness ... ... ... ... such a Tease. >;-)
No, I said that when using gear from my lower lvls for example from when I was lv30. If I am able to do considerable dmg with that to a target in basic lv50 gear or more then there's a problem.
So you agree with majority of non-George posters here. George's mistake was writing his "35 vs 40" example. Though even later he was still just talking about cheap gear vs non-cheap one.
I'm fairly sure everyone agrees that 20 lvl difference should definitely make it near-impossible to kill your enemy. It could theoretically be possible if you're attacking an afk person with no buffs and you manage to deal only crits or smth, but even that should take you a loooong time.
It's not about the target dying. It's that this way I'm abusing a system without being punished while my targets have to deal with me and my other 2 friends. The fight is unfair, it's not even a fight once the attention is on the severely undergeared less than a party side. But if I am at the point of dropping gear, I wouldn't care. I'd simply come again and again. The target party of 8 ie on the other hand, suffers. They can't properly focus on what they were doing. In the case of no help coming, or until it arrives to deal with the matter, the given party has to deal with insects. And once dealt with, nobody said they won't come again.
Let me make sure I understand this situation. You're talking about 3 players coming to a location where a full party of 8 is farming mobs. And those 3 start attacking the 8, while the 8 don't fight back, right?
To me, if the mobs are hard enough - it's on the 8 to survive your attacks, because this should be the same as if they overpulled 3 mobs onto themselves. And while they're surviving, they should ask for help from their guild or from anyone around that location.
If they can't deal with this or can't wait for help - that's on them. Life's tough. I do not see this as an abuse of the system.
So what is the value of gear in the first place if someone can pull that off?
The value is still half of your power. This value is important in direct pvp, because that's what you'll be matching to each other. In PKing this value is barely important, unless it's 100%.
If gear isn't dropped then what is the punishment?
If gear is dropped, the OP still has a point.
The punishment is time you'll require to come back to your base power from the death penalties. And if you have a high PK count, the punishment is the cost of you reducing that count or even more time of going back to your base power.
Now, we don't know how impactful the penalties will even be, so it's hard to say either way, but at the same time we've got no info on the chances of you losing gear on Red death, so the entire discussion is still built on pure speculation on either side of the argument.
Lastly, pk shouldn't be a first or last option. It should just be an option. The order of options should be subject to change, will u not agree on that?
This is a matter of personal preference and outlook on the game. To me PKing is the way of the weakest players in the game, because they couldn't win through pve, they couldn't win through pvp (though this one is not always their fault) and they couldn't avoid becoming a PKer when their victim died.
But this is kinda beside the point of this discussion.
As I mentioned earlier if a pk system is too punishing then most will avoid it.
And that's quite literally Steven's goal. He doesn't want much PKing happening in the game. He wants players to have that option, but the punishment will be severe. But right now I believe that this punishment will come through the corruption system itself, rather than through complete imbalance of the gearing system. I don't have any real basis for this belief, so I might be wrong in the end, but we won't know that either way until release (or at least late betas).
If it becomes a last resort then it loses its value and power. When someone refuses to fight me and instead just gets in my way then I should pk. If that person comes again and still refuses to fight but just messes with my pve in a number of ways because he likes that spot, do I keep pk kill him? To what end?
I have experienced this for hours. Peaceful conquering or some sht. If your last resort doesn't work then you got no other options.
This needs to be balanced with the other end, namely pk exploitation.
This is a whole different scenario though, isn't it?
You're wearing your normal gear because you came to farm mobs. This will be the case for majority of players, so the OP's got nothing to do with this scenario.
PK bombing has been discussed before and people have come up with several solutions to the "problem". But the OP is not talking about PK bombing.
I like the cc not working on green targets. However, if I just pked someone who acted as a bait for some time to provoke me enough to pk him, then the next moment his friends rush me the lack of cc is against the pk acting as a solution or option. Maybe it too should be applied after a set amount of pk counts. Or something else?
I'm not sure I understand this scenario, so I can't really address it.
The funny thing is that the OP is doing exactly that. And looking only at very specific situations that would only work in a vacuum of theoretical fights.
Weaker gear will already make those PKers take longer to kill their target. George is proposing that they literally CAN'T kill them. And that is what I have issues with. Because this has far-reaching implications on the balancing of a variety of other systems.
Ashes won't have pve and pvp gear separation, so if a slight difference in gear prevents on side from killing the other that means that this applies to mobs as well. And applies to multi-power-lvl pvp.
The pve side of this would lead to super hard cut off on mob loot, because now you can't have even slightly higher lvled players killing lower lvled mobs, due to the absolute destruction of said mobs. On the other side of this spectrum, lower-lvled people (or hell, even just lower-powered) can't fight mobs that are slightly stronger than them, so skilled players can't powerlvl.
In pvp this leads to the hardcore sweaties completely dominating everything even more than they already would have, because they'll always be ahead of other players and this lead will simply snowball out of control, because no one will be able to stand up to them. This would lead to mega guilds that just trickle down their strong gear to more and more members, which would allow them to control more and more locations on the map.
And all of this would happen simply because some PKers would've used weaker gear to attack people who wouldn't have fought back either way. This is a solution to a 1% problem that creates a whole new 99% problem.
And all of this is built on L2-based classes (that were unbalanced more times than not), L2-based corruption system (that's already been made better for these exact situations) and L2-based gear examples (while we have 0 fucking clue how gear will look like in Ashes).
In other words, this is a classic example of absolute silliness of this forum's discussions
@NiKr I do agree it was misconduct, I also think that most people should be able to understand the meaning inbetween the "35-40".
On the case of 3v8: let's say those 8 took that spot from the given 3. Under normal circumstances the chances that these 3 ppl can take back their spot from the 8 are very low. It is possible but still quite hard. That leaves them with less options.
1 ie is to bring help. Let's say there is none at that moment.
2 is to leave the spot, but let's leave that out of the equation for the sake of argument.
3 could be some form of sneak attack. This is where one can think of exploiting certain systems. You are in a power disadvantage in that moment. If they have the option to go around the pk system in some way then it's an exploit not a clever start. If they form a start and win 3v8 then hurray! If it's done through pk with trash items compared to their current ones.. Well we going in circles.
4 could be the one of peace. They keep going to the same spot and attack those monsters disrupt respawn time so generally no one is satisfied with the pve results, it's just the personal satisfaction of the 3 not giving away the spot they lost by fair game 10 minutes ago.
Now this here ties up to the other situation I mentioned.
The stronger 8 that took something by force are now to make a decision. They decide to kill the 3 and burn the pk. The 3 dead dudes come again and again and again. And yet again. What is the point of being stronger if people can just ignore that power? You and your mates can clearly stab the fck out of me. If just keep coming there, refusing to pvp while messing with your pve what can you do? U can't pk me, the penalty is severe. Boring stalemate don't you agree?
For the last senario I will explain it in L2 examples, tho I don't find it appropriate to compare L2 to an upcoming one. Still I am in need of examples in order to be understood more clearly.
Think of this: You and 4 more people see a spot somewhere taken by some solo dude or some duo. You send one guy to mess with them, trying to provoke them to attack and pk your mate. If it succeeds, then that target can no longer use cc, correct? That in it's essence is an exploitation of how the pk system works. Because the moment the pk is done, you jump the dude with your other 3 mates. Without cc and in a numeric disadvantage. That's an exploit.
If this is the way things will work, then we could address any concerns about it. The first one that comes to mind is, if my stuns and cc are taken away from me in a senario like above, I can not fight back. I am not a notorious PK player I ended up pking someone who provoked me and gave me no other option.
The comb comes down to this.
If the pk system punishment is too severe and people avoid it, then it's no solution. If you are stronger and someone messed with your pve and words fail to give a solution, you got the option of pvp. If one side refuses to pvp then pk I'd also an option. But if that is too severely punished then it isn't an option really, is it?
All these scenarios are tied together. If it's unacceptable for you to kill me then why would I not be a prick and come take that sweet spot that you and your friends have? Me and my weaker friends. Wouldn't that anger you? Or would you just give it away? How would you deal with it?
All these scenarios are tied together. If it's unacceptable for you to kill me then why would I not be a prick and come take that sweet spot that you and your friends have? Me and my weaker friends. Wouldn't that anger you? Or would you just give it away? How would you deal with it?
If your group is weaker we'll just outfarm you. This is what I did for years in L2 in cases where people didn't want to flag up.
And if I didn't manage to outfarm you - I'm weaker than you and I'd either take another spot or go do smth else completely.
For me there's no "he made me PK him". I'm the only one who decides when I want to PK and the other person has no influence on me. If I'm going to a deep location to farm some mobs I'm already going with a mindset of "I'm PKing anyone there" (never said I was a strong player ), because I know that I'll be able to remove my karma before anyone else can get to me.
In majority of cases in L2 people would just fight back. I hope they do this in Ashes as well. But if they didn't fight back - good luck to them running the entire way back to the same location and trying to overfarm me. And depending on how long it takes them to come back and what my PK count was at the time, I'd decide whether I want to PK them a few more times (in case they still don't flag up) or if I want to simply keep farming sub-optimally or just finding a different spot.
To me it's all a play of persistence and strength of will. None of your examples are exploits to me.
And also, you keep giving unbalanced team sizes that somehow "mess up" the farm. If 3 players can somehow take even a single mob away from 8 - those 8 players are weakling and don't know how to play. Same applies to the couple of people in the other example.
AoC's loot will be based on dmg done (+first hit benefit), so if higher number of players can't outdps a single "bait" character or simply a smaller group - they've failed as players imo.
Now if there was an 8v8 situation (or any other equal number matchup) then this would be a much funner game. One side could flag up and periodically hit others in hopes of messing them up. Or both sides could just do their best to try and outfarm each other. To me this would simply be a test of player group skill. And the first ones to PK would be the weaker group.
You might be outfarming me. The point here is that if you are fully comfortable in that spot I am disrupting that flow. I am essentially stealing away. If this spot is what I need and I can't fight you I could stay there for hours. We could trash talk each other and all sorts of things. You are taking less farm than before and you can't make me go away. There's so many people that did these types of things. It became a common thing in L2 at a certain point. Classic client and later.
You make the decision, yes. But things happen that lead to decisions.
See, it's a justice system. In modern day societies the punishment for killing people is severe. Normal cases no corruption let's just not get into that. The whole murdering people is considered a crime since ancient times. The justice system has evolved over thousands of years. Now, MMOs are sort of a fantasy simulator of real life society. The more open world pvp and politics it involves the more of a realistic approach to a rl society it has. No game ever has addressed the justice system in true depth as it has other aspects of society. You talking trade, politics, betrayal, diplomacy, map conquest, building, teaming up forming guilds clans alliances. The justice system has always been somewhat shallow. It's a game set in the middle ages involving all of the above. If murder is taken out, not pvp or war, just plain murder with or without a reason due to it being too easy to deal with without exploits, then what is the point in having it in the first place? I am hacking sht left and right with a katana, who is to tell me that I should be too afraid of the consequences like dropping gear or my combat abilities being nerfed to a pulp until a group of bounty hunters with a GPS on my head show up and beat the crap out of me for killing a stubborn dude that kept coming over and over to a spot refusing to hit me, but instead just taking mobs away making me wait or forcibly share something that I decided not to? It has happened to me personally in L2. A dude kept coming in some catacombs getting pked and going to village over and over again for literal hours. Me and my 2 friends pked him hundreds of times, one even brought a pk char. He lost more than a lvl and a half by dying. In the end some other random dude showed up, he saw us called his clan and we left. Obviously, dropped gear didn't mean much to me at that point. At times that it did matter tho I had to change spot or share in peace and make do with half ass farm.
This has troubled me since. This is an exploit. You can not keep killing me. I am gonna mess with your mobs whether u like it or not. If there is an option of pk, I'd like it to be useful, not just exist for the sake of existing. Is this wrong?
If people think it isn't wrong, then can we help it be dealt with properly? I am sure that many have felt the urge to pk someone right there right at that time when that person got their last nerve tested.
I believe there must be some considerable fear of Pking someone because of consequences, AND of being PKed for being too much a dick respectively.
Would be nice if the fuck around and fight out connection applied and we could murder nuisances as they appear, but as the corruption stands on the wiki, someone can bait you into attacking them all day, but they wont flag up for the sole reason of giving you corruption.
You might be outfarming me. The point here is that if you are fully comfortable in that spot I am disrupting that flow. I am essentially stealing away. If this spot is what I need and I can't fight you I could stay there for hours. We could trash talk each other and all sorts of things. You are taking less farm than before and you can't make me go away. There's so many people that did these types of things. It became a common thing in L2 at a certain point. Classic client and later.
I should've worded my point better. I wasn't talking about simple outfarming. I was talking about "every mob that I was killing before is still mine" type of deal. Your presence in my location would only help me farm mobs, because you'd be doing some damage while I gain all the loot, because I outdps you on every single mob.
If a stronger group fails at this - they are not the stronger group and should deal with that in whichever way suits them.
And to me it's system working as intended. Except in Ashes you'll be stopped way sooner because you won't be able to kill that dude anymore, because your pvp stats will be so low that you physically cannot. So in the end you'll either have to outfarm him or find another spot (given you haven't been killed 10 times already by some BHs).
You can not keep killing me. I am gonna mess with your mobs whether u like it or not. If there is an option of pk, I'd like it to be useful, not just exist for the sake of existing. Is this wrong?
And what would you suggest exactly? Endless PKs against the same person who just happens to be at the same location? Cause this kind of approach can be directed backwards and abused to endlessly PK people around a respawn point or around a very important quest npc.
The only way to completely remove other players from your general location is to be in an instance. Steven wants to limit this only to story stuff, so that won't happen. So everyone will just have to suck it up and get better at playing the game.
Returning to the same location to do what you want to do there is not an exploit. Killing the same person over and over is not an exploit (though allegedly this will be seen as harassment, so you'll get banned by GMs ). Trying to make another player die to mobs by attacking them in just the right way teeters on exploit, but would probably be closer to harassment, depending on how long it takes you to achieve your goal.
But the point is - things that you dislike are not exploits, they're just that - things that you dislike. I dislike that there're people that won't fight back if I flag on them, but it's their right to choose to do that and it's my right to either keep hitting them or choose another approach.
Would be nice if the fuck around and fight out connection applied and we could murder nuisances as they appear, but as the corruption stands on the wiki, someone can bait you into attacking them all day, but they wont flag up for the sole reason of giving you corruption.
I feel like yall need to really figure out yalls anger issues. I got no damn clue how people can "bait you into murdering them"
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Would be nice if the fuck around and fight out connection applied and we could murder nuisances as they appear, but as the corruption stands on the wiki, someone can bait you into attacking them all day, but they wont flag up for the sole reason of giving you corruption.
Not too concerned. We still PKed them. Plus, AoC wont have teleports.
I'm not suggesting. I'm pointing an issue. You claim 100% outdpsing. What if the dps ratio is somewhat different and you fail to get all the loot, but can still not contest it via pvp since the weaker newcomer refuses to fight?
Imo the penalties should apply differently in different cases. For example different count and severity of penalty depending on the killed target. Such as level differences.
For an instance, if the difference of lvls between a victim and a killer is X lvls, then Y stats will be reduced, more gear will drop, the punished won't be able to use npcs, higher alert on map for bh etc etc. Thus severely punishing the huge lvl difference.
For one's own caliber though, that seems a bit of an exagerration. Why, in a world filled with people, politics and land control, there sure is nothing wrong of it having a considerable amount of criminals. Hell, that's even better. BH can get more work and rewards, loot for the masses. The pker can't escape, can he? Why impose stat reducing if he gonna be caught and killed and drop items? Create a justice system that takes care of that. It's a role playing game after all. A massive multilayer one at that.
So, to extend it all a branch, another mmo I played that didn't have any pk system at all but has a rulers in areas had the following going on. The ruler of a given area is either elected or a dominator/conqueror. That ruler has certain powers for political and social matters. In short he could banish players out of his land, or make them a target for the rest of his subjects to deal with, while giving him a debuff for a certain amount of time that cripples him. The people who did the deed had material gains from that.
Other disputes were solved by the community of that node/area once brought to the attention of that ruler and any existing council. Penalties were decided for the one at fault and he/she didn't comply then he could potentially be deemed as criminal and attacked for a given amount of time (until the chosen debuff wore off).
This all has some elements that can be used here along with some other ideas that people might have, to create a different type of system applicable for this game, unique in it's own way.
The way people deal with that could also affect their chances of being a mayor, or overthrown by force.
Just an idea, now that u asked for one. And if that doesn't serve, I'm sure there can be some other options. Simply dismissing pk system is sad in role-playing. A good at heart rogue. An honorable assassin.
I'm not suggesting. I'm pointing an issue. You claim 100% outdpsing. What if the dps ratio is somewhat different and you fail to get all the loot, but can still not contest it via pvp since the weaker newcomer refuses to fight?
All I need to do is tag each mob first and then deal 41% of the damage to it. That's it. If me or my party can't accomplish that in our chosen location against a smaller/weaker group - we've failed.
Imo the penalties should apply differently in different cases. For example different count and severity of penalty depending on the killed target. Such as level differences.
For an instance, if the difference of lvls between a victim and a killer is X lvls, then Y stats will be reduced, more gear will drop, the punished won't be able to use npcs, higher alert on map for bh etc etc. Thus severely punishing the huge lvl difference.
This is already the case.
Steven has simply copied L2's system and added a few features to plug some holes that he didn't like. I personally like the current system and just hope that it's balanced in a way where there's enough PKers to create a demand for BHs.
Fucking up pvp/pve through gear balancing is not included in that system. Voting or judging of criminals was not added, even though it's present in another game that inspired Steven, which leads me to believe he doesn't want that kind of system in the game.
There is no fucking up PvE/PvP. That's a bad argument. If all gear gives 70-80% of the player power, both top and cheap, how does that affect the balance between players and the balance against.... lol... mobs?
In ESO there was power creep. They raised (after launch to their shame) the mobs/bosses HP and atk on Veteran content. Who cares.
In L2 without decent gear you couldnt farm the toughest areas (of your level).
Even the guilds would give members top weapons for dps and top armor to the tank for tanking.
Wakanda double-speak is this: you mess up pve and pvp...
I will say it again. If gear is weak, content will be skipped.
There is no fucking up PvE/PvP. That's a bad argument. If all gear gives 70-80% of the player power, both top and cheap, how does that affect the balance between players and the balance against.... lol... mobs?
Because even slightly better gear gives you a much bigger boost, due to you power rising almost directly with it. So if you manage to slightly outpace you pvp enemies in gearing - you kill them all and prevent them from farming more stuff (hence the snowball).
PvE gets fucked in a similar manner. Skill matters even less now so fighting harder mobs becomes even harder. Of course L2 was highly dependent on your gear because it had a full tab rooted combat based in healing potions or sitting on your ass. Ashes will be a hybrid system with full movement, so if gear determines majority of your strength, the mobs would have to be tuned in a different way and loot tables would have to be shifted, so that higher lvls don't go back to kill bosses much easier or overfarm mobs faster. And, like I said, skillful players won't be able to kill higher mobs.
And if you say that this math is wrong, then your entire argument doesn't apply, because cheap gear will most likely be within a few gearing steps from "the stuff you wouldn't want to drop". And even if it isn't - 20% of power is still enough to PK people just fine.
I will say it again. If gear is weak, content will be skipped.
Or, you know, Intrepid could make pve harder, to match the potential player skill, and also put in valuable things into all steps of leveling progress, so that people simply don't want to skip it
George's examples of what he's trying to argue against are all over the damn place, so it's hard to figure out what exactly he's even trying to prevent. And I think I've already addressed all of his examples in this thread, but he refuses to acknowledge those. Classic George
George is trying to prevent skilled players to defeat the ones who have managed to get their hands on better gear
Just as higher level players will always beat lower level players, so it should be that people that have managed to get their hands on better gear will (most of the time) beat people equal in all aspects except for gear power---
The problems I have with this suggestion is that
- players who do not have such gear may try to buy it for real money if it is vital to have it
- if they don't have the gear, they cannot defend caravans efficiently and might never catch up with the players who have such gear
- participating in sieges will also push such players in support activities
Corruption penalties can be balanced to be harsh independent of gear.
If the intention would be to deter ganking, instead of losing valuable gear, the player can lose more XP and get debuf at gaining it back.
Making gear stronger and hard to get is just vertical progression, worse than having more levels and longer leveling time.
As for the people saying "high level can play with the lower lv friends" it's just a case of "I want everything, now!".
Mmos need fresh start servers for new players and yearly additions for older players.
Not content that high and low repeat over and over and over.
You want either longer time to reach level cap and then server reset or longer time to obtain high gear and then server reset.
Vertical progression rather than horizontal progression.
In games where developers want to be sure the gear level is ´the player's effort, they make the gear character bound. Or account bound.
Do you really care about your node being sieges and destroyed? Or should I care?
Apparently node sieges and caravan runs are the main end game.
Steven uses the node system as the selling point of the game.
Corrupted players loosing gear can also be more a reward for whoever kills that player than a punishment for ganking.
Because players who want to gank for fun can work in advance to create 10 sets of gear meant to be lost.
Not everyone has access to epic tier resources and those who don't have are the ones more vulnerable to ganking.
Raven... first post, my answer of new servers has nothing to do with skill.
Second post.
What will be the reward for killing a corrupted player? The cheap gear he used because he can rely on the 50% of non gear power?
What does epic tier sources has to do with any of this? Vulnarable to ganging?
Get rdy for more ganging if people arent afraid of losing gear, because they use cheap gear.
What didn't you get from the scenario Max described?
A person rolls in your area, with his friend waiting aside. The first person comes and hits the same mobs you are hitting, waiting to see if you PK him or not. You either leave, annoyed, or you pk. Also annoyed.
You are red and his friend standing by is green. You got no CCs against him, plus you have reduced stats.
That is the scenario. And he poses the question, "should Red players get instantly nerfed, or should there be a condition that prevents access to CC skills/reduced stat. A condition like 2 straight PKs. Maybe you need to slow down and read more.
There are many conversations to be had. You need to be more respectful, have a better understanding of what people say, don't try to guess ulterior motives when somebody presents an issue. And above all else, dont get miss the forest for the tree.
If you dont have what it takes dont get involved. Many more people are coming now to argue problems that may arise due to the interconnection of systems. Having to repeat stuff is getting tiresome.
It's not about hiding or strong parties dealing with pkers and BH and whatnot. That's all good. But in an ancient game like L2 mistakes happened. Ppl would pk just for sport using very lower than their lvl gear because they lost a fight earlier or were bored. While others afraid to lose gear wouldn't and would rather get overrun by ppl who didn't wanna pvp but wouldn't leave cuz they knew that they wouldn't get pked over and over. How do you fix that?
You dont.
Darkfall/Darkfall Unholy Wars was similar. The best players on the server could kill you in the lowest level gear while you wore the highest level gear if your ability as a player wasn't up to snuff.
In Ashes, PKers aren't going to use their best gear to kill farm others, because the trade value of not knowing how much material someone is going to drop vs your potential loss won't be worth the risk to most.
On top of that Ashes will have gear for gathering and crafting besides, so that's a risk they run by nature of playing Ashes.
I'm sure a few twits are going to run around and PK people for shits and giggles, they may pick off a few flower pickers and shitters. But they damn sure aren't going to look for the best players on the server in shit gear.
I feel like yall need to really figure out yalls anger issues. I got no damn clue how people can "bait you into murdering them"
I think the bigger issue is if it's generally worth it to try and bait somebody into PKing you. People have different "thresholds" for when they think the other guy finally deserves getting PK'd. One-off PKs shouldn't screw you over so much that the other guy would feel like they can exploit that.
Comments
Covering all your bases I see.
But those who don't fight back won't care if they're getting hit for a hundred of for 10.
100% was in the context of your suggestion working, because it would only work then. But at that point it would circle back to not working, because the 1%s will never lose their gear due to them being unkillable. And with them never losing gear, there'd be no point in them caring about corruption or who/when they PK.
You claim that I don't read/understand your posts, but you seem to be doing the same.
It's not about the target dying. It's that this way I'm abusing a system without being punished while my targets have to deal with me and my other 2 friends. The fight is unfair, it's not even a fight once the attention is on the severely undergeared less than a party side. But if I am at the point of dropping gear, I wouldn't care. I'd simply come again and again. The target party of 8 ie on the other hand, suffers. They can't properly focus on what they were doing. In the case of no help coming, or until it arrives to deal with the matter, the given party has to deal with insects. And once dealt with, nobody said they won't come again.
So what is the value of gear in the first place if someone can pull that off? The reasons of pk are irrelevant. It might be all of the mentioned above. The exploits are what matters, right?
If gear isn't dropped then what is the punishment?
If gear is dropped, the OP still has a point.
Lastly, pk shouldn't be a first or last option. It should just be an option. The order of options should be subject to change, will u not agree on that?
As I mentioned earlier if a pk system is too punishing then most will avoid it. If it becomes a last resort then it loses its value and power. When someone refuses to fight me and instead just gets in my way then I should pk. If that person comes again and still refuses to fight but just messes with my pve in a number of ways because he likes that spot, do I keep pk kill him? To what end?
I have experienced this for hours. Peaceful conquering or some sht. If your last resort doesn't work then you got no other options.
This needs to be balanced with the other end, namely pk exploitation.
One idea is the gear importance in pvp as mentioned in OP.
I like the cc not working on green targets. However, if I just pked someone who acted as a bait for some time to provoke me enough to pk him, then the next moment his friends rush me the lack of cc is against the pk acting as a solution or option. Maybe it too should be applied after a set amount of pk counts. Or something else?
You can't just look at it from one side, no one is doing to deny a pker will still pk no matter what if they are that out there. But there are a lot of factors that come into play and certain benchmarks that affect player mentality.
Could be me.
Thanks for the Explanation, though. Although i doubt very much, we will see People often who fight against each other,
and are " equal in ALL Aspects " - because that is VEEERYYYY unlikely in a Game with constant Action.
It would need to be :
- Two People of the same Class
- Level
- Situation
- Mental State of Mind
- Skill in how to use their Character
- Tactics they want to use on each other, to beat the other Player
With the ONLY DIFFERENCE - being their Difference in Gear.
How often does this actually happen ingame ? About One Time out of a Million, perhaps.
Usually one Player is weakened by a Mob : or doesn't have a healing Potion and the other one does. Or has some other Element of Advantage or Disadvantage against the other Guy.
Equal in all Points - EXCEPT the Power of the Gear ?
This is to naive. This would assume, that both Players want " to fight fair ", for Example.
MUAHAHAHAHAH. Fairness ... ... ... ... such a Tease. >;-)
I'm fairly sure everyone agrees that 20 lvl difference should definitely make it near-impossible to kill your enemy. It could theoretically be possible if you're attacking an afk person with no buffs and you manage to deal only crits or smth, but even that should take you a loooong time.
Let me make sure I understand this situation. You're talking about 3 players coming to a location where a full party of 8 is farming mobs. And those 3 start attacking the 8, while the 8 don't fight back, right?
To me, if the mobs are hard enough - it's on the 8 to survive your attacks, because this should be the same as if they overpulled 3 mobs onto themselves. And while they're surviving, they should ask for help from their guild or from anyone around that location.
If they can't deal with this or can't wait for help - that's on them. Life's tough. I do not see this as an abuse of the system.
The value is still half of your power. This value is important in direct pvp, because that's what you'll be matching to each other. In PKing this value is barely important, unless it's 100%.
The punishment is time you'll require to come back to your base power from the death penalties. And if you have a high PK count, the punishment is the cost of you reducing that count or even more time of going back to your base power.
Now, we don't know how impactful the penalties will even be, so it's hard to say either way, but at the same time we've got no info on the chances of you losing gear on Red death, so the entire discussion is still built on pure speculation on either side of the argument.
This is a matter of personal preference and outlook on the game. To me PKing is the way of the weakest players in the game, because they couldn't win through pve, they couldn't win through pvp (though this one is not always their fault) and they couldn't avoid becoming a PKer when their victim died.
But this is kinda beside the point of this discussion.
And that's quite literally Steven's goal. He doesn't want much PKing happening in the game. He wants players to have that option, but the punishment will be severe. But right now I believe that this punishment will come through the corruption system itself, rather than through complete imbalance of the gearing system. I don't have any real basis for this belief, so I might be wrong in the end, but we won't know that either way until release (or at least late betas).
This is a whole different scenario though, isn't it?
You're wearing your normal gear because you came to farm mobs. This will be the case for majority of players, so the OP's got nothing to do with this scenario.
PK bombing has been discussed before and people have come up with several solutions to the "problem". But the OP is not talking about PK bombing.
I'm not sure I understand this scenario, so I can't really address it.
Weaker gear will already make those PKers take longer to kill their target. George is proposing that they literally CAN'T kill them. And that is what I have issues with. Because this has far-reaching implications on the balancing of a variety of other systems.
Ashes won't have pve and pvp gear separation, so if a slight difference in gear prevents on side from killing the other that means that this applies to mobs as well. And applies to multi-power-lvl pvp.
The pve side of this would lead to super hard cut off on mob loot, because now you can't have even slightly higher lvled players killing lower lvled mobs, due to the absolute destruction of said mobs. On the other side of this spectrum, lower-lvled people (or hell, even just lower-powered) can't fight mobs that are slightly stronger than them, so skilled players can't powerlvl.
In pvp this leads to the hardcore sweaties completely dominating everything even more than they already would have, because they'll always be ahead of other players and this lead will simply snowball out of control, because no one will be able to stand up to them. This would lead to mega guilds that just trickle down their strong gear to more and more members, which would allow them to control more and more locations on the map.
And all of this would happen simply because some PKers would've used weaker gear to attack people who wouldn't have fought back either way. This is a solution to a 1% problem that creates a whole new 99% problem.
And all of this is built on L2-based classes (that were unbalanced more times than not), L2-based corruption system (that's already been made better for these exact situations) and L2-based gear examples (while we have 0 fucking clue how gear will look like in Ashes).
In other words, this is a classic example of absolute silliness of this forum's discussions
On the case of 3v8: let's say those 8 took that spot from the given 3. Under normal circumstances the chances that these 3 ppl can take back their spot from the 8 are very low. It is possible but still quite hard. That leaves them with less options.
1 ie is to bring help. Let's say there is none at that moment.
2 is to leave the spot, but let's leave that out of the equation for the sake of argument.
3 could be some form of sneak attack. This is where one can think of exploiting certain systems. You are in a power disadvantage in that moment. If they have the option to go around the pk system in some way then it's an exploit not a clever start. If they form a start and win 3v8 then hurray! If it's done through pk with trash items compared to their current ones.. Well we going in circles.
4 could be the one of peace. They keep going to the same spot and attack those monsters disrupt respawn time so generally no one is satisfied with the pve results, it's just the personal satisfaction of the 3 not giving away the spot they lost by fair game 10 minutes ago.
Now this here ties up to the other situation I mentioned.
The stronger 8 that took something by force are now to make a decision. They decide to kill the 3 and burn the pk. The 3 dead dudes come again and again and again. And yet again. What is the point of being stronger if people can just ignore that power? You and your mates can clearly stab the fck out of me. If just keep coming there, refusing to pvp while messing with your pve what can you do? U can't pk me, the penalty is severe. Boring stalemate don't you agree?
For the last senario I will explain it in L2 examples, tho I don't find it appropriate to compare L2 to an upcoming one. Still I am in need of examples in order to be understood more clearly.
Think of this: You and 4 more people see a spot somewhere taken by some solo dude or some duo. You send one guy to mess with them, trying to provoke them to attack and pk your mate. If it succeeds, then that target can no longer use cc, correct? That in it's essence is an exploitation of how the pk system works. Because the moment the pk is done, you jump the dude with your other 3 mates. Without cc and in a numeric disadvantage. That's an exploit.
If this is the way things will work, then we could address any concerns about it. The first one that comes to mind is, if my stuns and cc are taken away from me in a senario like above, I can not fight back. I am not a notorious PK player I ended up pking someone who provoked me and gave me no other option.
The comb comes down to this.
If the pk system punishment is too severe and people avoid it, then it's no solution. If you are stronger and someone messed with your pve and words fail to give a solution, you got the option of pvp. If one side refuses to pvp then pk I'd also an option. But if that is too severely punished then it isn't an option really, is it?
All these scenarios are tied together. If it's unacceptable for you to kill me then why would I not be a prick and come take that sweet spot that you and your friends have? Me and my weaker friends. Wouldn't that anger you? Or would you just give it away? How would you deal with it?
And if I didn't manage to outfarm you - I'm weaker than you and I'd either take another spot or go do smth else completely.
For me there's no "he made me PK him". I'm the only one who decides when I want to PK and the other person has no influence on me. If I'm going to a deep location to farm some mobs I'm already going with a mindset of "I'm PKing anyone there" (never said I was a strong player
In majority of cases in L2 people would just fight back. I hope they do this in Ashes as well. But if they didn't fight back - good luck to them running the entire way back to the same location and trying to overfarm me. And depending on how long it takes them to come back and what my PK count was at the time, I'd decide whether I want to PK them a few more times (in case they still don't flag up) or if I want to simply keep farming sub-optimally or just finding a different spot.
To me it's all a play of persistence and strength of will. None of your examples are exploits to me.
And also, you keep giving unbalanced team sizes that somehow "mess up" the farm. If 3 players can somehow take even a single mob away from 8 - those 8 players are weakling and don't know how to play. Same applies to the couple of people in the other example.
AoC's loot will be based on dmg done (+first hit benefit), so if higher number of players can't outdps a single "bait" character or simply a smaller group - they've failed as players imo.
Now if there was an 8v8 situation (or any other equal number matchup) then this would be a much funner game. One side could flag up and periodically hit others in hopes of messing them up. Or both sides could just do their best to try and outfarm each other. To me this would simply be a test of player group skill. And the first ones to PK would be the weaker group.
You make the decision, yes. But things happen that lead to decisions.
See, it's a justice system. In modern day societies the punishment for killing people is severe. Normal cases no corruption let's just not get into that. The whole murdering people is considered a crime since ancient times. The justice system has evolved over thousands of years. Now, MMOs are sort of a fantasy simulator of real life society. The more open world pvp and politics it involves the more of a realistic approach to a rl society it has. No game ever has addressed the justice system in true depth as it has other aspects of society. You talking trade, politics, betrayal, diplomacy, map conquest, building, teaming up forming guilds clans alliances. The justice system has always been somewhat shallow. It's a game set in the middle ages involving all of the above. If murder is taken out, not pvp or war, just plain murder with or without a reason due to it being too easy to deal with without exploits, then what is the point in having it in the first place? I am hacking sht left and right with a katana, who is to tell me that I should be too afraid of the consequences like dropping gear or my combat abilities being nerfed to a pulp until a group of bounty hunters with a GPS on my head show up and beat the crap out of me for killing a stubborn dude that kept coming over and over to a spot refusing to hit me, but instead just taking mobs away making me wait or forcibly share something that I decided not to? It has happened to me personally in L2. A dude kept coming in some catacombs getting pked and going to village over and over again for literal hours. Me and my 2 friends pked him hundreds of times, one even brought a pk char. He lost more than a lvl and a half by dying. In the end some other random dude showed up, he saw us called his clan and we left. Obviously, dropped gear didn't mean much to me at that point. At times that it did matter tho I had to change spot or share in peace and make do with half ass farm.
This has troubled me since. This is an exploit. You can not keep killing me. I am gonna mess with your mobs whether u like it or not. If there is an option of pk, I'd like it to be useful, not just exist for the sake of existing. Is this wrong?
If people think it isn't wrong, then can we help it be dealt with properly? I am sure that many have felt the urge to pk someone right there right at that time when that person got their last nerve tested.
I believe there must be some considerable fear of Pking someone because of consequences, AND of being PKed for being too much a dick respectively.
If a stronger group fails at this - they are not the stronger group and should deal with that in whichever way suits them.
And to me it's system working as intended. Except in Ashes you'll be stopped way sooner because you won't be able to kill that dude anymore, because your pvp stats will be so low that you physically cannot. So in the end you'll either have to outfarm him or find another spot (given you haven't been killed 10 times already by some BHs).
And what would you suggest exactly? Endless PKs against the same person who just happens to be at the same location? Cause this kind of approach can be directed backwards and abused to endlessly PK people around a respawn point or around a very important quest npc.
The only way to completely remove other players from your general location is to be in an instance. Steven wants to limit this only to story stuff, so that won't happen. So everyone will just have to suck it up and get better at playing the game.
Returning to the same location to do what you want to do there is not an exploit. Killing the same person over and over is not an exploit (though allegedly this will be seen as harassment, so you'll get banned by GMs
But the point is - things that you dislike are not exploits, they're just that - things that you dislike. I dislike that there're people that won't fight back if I flag on them, but it's their right to choose to do that and it's my right to either keep hitting them or choose another approach.
Not too concerned. We still PKed them. Plus, AoC wont have teleports.
Imo the penalties should apply differently in different cases. For example different count and severity of penalty depending on the killed target. Such as level differences.
For an instance, if the difference of lvls between a victim and a killer is X lvls, then Y stats will be reduced, more gear will drop, the punished won't be able to use npcs, higher alert on map for bh etc etc. Thus severely punishing the huge lvl difference.
For one's own caliber though, that seems a bit of an exagerration. Why, in a world filled with people, politics and land control, there sure is nothing wrong of it having a considerable amount of criminals. Hell, that's even better. BH can get more work and rewards, loot for the masses. The pker can't escape, can he? Why impose stat reducing if he gonna be caught and killed and drop items? Create a justice system that takes care of that. It's a role playing game after all. A massive multilayer one at that.
So, to extend it all a branch, another mmo I played that didn't have any pk system at all but has a rulers in areas had the following going on. The ruler of a given area is either elected or a dominator/conqueror. That ruler has certain powers for political and social matters. In short he could banish players out of his land, or make them a target for the rest of his subjects to deal with, while giving him a debuff for a certain amount of time that cripples him. The people who did the deed had material gains from that.
Other disputes were solved by the community of that node/area once brought to the attention of that ruler and any existing council. Penalties were decided for the one at fault and he/she didn't comply then he could potentially be deemed as criminal and attacked for a given amount of time (until the chosen debuff wore off).
This all has some elements that can be used here along with some other ideas that people might have, to create a different type of system applicable for this game, unique in it's own way.
The way people deal with that could also affect their chances of being a mayor, or overthrown by force.
Just an idea, now that u asked for one. And if that doesn't serve, I'm sure there can be some other options. Simply dismissing pk system is sad in role-playing. A good at heart rogue. An honorable assassin.
This is already the case.
Steven has simply copied L2's system and added a few features to plug some holes that he didn't like. I personally like the current system and just hope that it's balanced in a way where there's enough PKers to create a demand for BHs.
Fucking up pvp/pve through gear balancing is not included in that system. Voting or judging of criminals was not added, even though it's present in another game that inspired Steven, which leads me to believe he doesn't want that kind of system in the game.
In ESO there was power creep. They raised (after launch to their shame) the mobs/bosses HP and atk on Veteran content. Who cares.
In L2 without decent gear you couldnt farm the toughest areas (of your level).
Even the guilds would give members top weapons for dps and top armor to the tank for tanking.
Wakanda double-speak is this: you mess up pve and pvp...
I will say it again. If gear is weak, content will be skipped.
PvE gets fucked in a similar manner. Skill matters even less now so fighting harder mobs becomes even harder. Of course L2 was highly dependent on your gear because it had a full tab rooted combat based in healing potions or sitting on your ass. Ashes will be a hybrid system with full movement, so if gear determines majority of your strength, the mobs would have to be tuned in a different way and loot tables would have to be shifted, so that higher lvls don't go back to kill bosses much easier or overfarm mobs faster. And, like I said, skillful players won't be able to kill higher mobs.
And if you say that this math is wrong, then your entire argument doesn't apply, because cheap gear will most likely be within a few gearing steps from "the stuff you wouldn't want to drop". And even if it isn't - 20% of power is still enough to PK people just fine.
- players who do not have such gear may try to buy it for real money if it is vital to have it
- if they don't have the gear, they cannot defend caravans efficiently and might never catch up with the players who have such gear
- participating in sieges will also push such players in support activities
I talked about it before. It's rubbish. If you think that's my motive you are starting the discussion on false premise.
If the intention would be to deter ganking, instead of losing valuable gear, the player can lose more XP and get debuf at gaining it back.
Making gear stronger and hard to get is just vertical progression, worse than having more levels and longer leveling time.
Your argument in both threads was that server resets are needed for new players.
Because players who want to gank for fun can work in advance to create 10 sets of gear meant to be lost.
Not everyone has access to epic tier resources and those who don't have are the ones more vulnerable to ganking.
Second post.
What will be the reward for killing a corrupted player? The cheap gear he used because he can rely on the 50% of non gear power?
What does epic tier sources has to do with any of this? Vulnarable to ganging?
Get rdy for more ganging if people arent afraid of losing gear, because they use cheap gear.
A person rolls in your area, with his friend waiting aside. The first person comes and hits the same mobs you are hitting, waiting to see if you PK him or not. You either leave, annoyed, or you pk. Also annoyed.
You are red and his friend standing by is green. You got no CCs against him, plus you have reduced stats.
That is the scenario. And he poses the question, "should Red players get instantly nerfed, or should there be a condition that prevents access to CC skills/reduced stat. A condition like 2 straight PKs. Maybe you need to slow down and read more.
There are many conversations to be had. You need to be more respectful, have a better understanding of what people say, don't try to guess ulterior motives when somebody presents an issue. And above all else, dont get miss the forest for the tree.
If you dont have what it takes dont get involved. Many more people are coming now to argue problems that may arise due to the interconnection of systems. Having to repeat stuff is getting tiresome.
You dont.
Darkfall/Darkfall Unholy Wars was similar. The best players on the server could kill you in the lowest level gear while you wore the highest level gear if your ability as a player wasn't up to snuff.
In Ashes, PKers aren't going to use their best gear to kill farm others, because the trade value of not knowing how much material someone is going to drop vs your potential loss won't be worth the risk to most.
On top of that Ashes will have gear for gathering and crafting besides, so that's a risk they run by nature of playing Ashes.
I'm sure a few twits are going to run around and PK people for shits and giggles, they may pick off a few flower pickers and shitters. But they damn sure aren't going to look for the best players on the server in shit gear.