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Are Rogues Viable in AoC
ILLPeonU
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Stealth does not render a player completely invisible.
There will be indicators that can help players "feel out" where stealthed individuals may be.[3]
There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]
Certain NPCs can also see through stealth.[4]
Stealth augments from the Rogue secondary archetype will incorporate stealth modifiers into a class' primary skills.[5]
Stealth is 100% an option in the game. It's not going to render yourself or the individual who uses the stealth completely obscured. You're still going to be able to identify- there's going to be utility skills that can reveal stealth from a PvP perspective. There's going to be perceptions that certain NPCs have that can see through stealth, like Tremor Sense or Life Sense. There are elements of mechanics that relate to stealth and how it is balanced in the game. It's not going to be similar to stealth that's been found in other games where the target is rendered completely invisible- they can make it past every enemy NPC or monster: they can use stealth at all times. These are elements that is a tit for tat. These are components of class-kits that are going to have corresponding counters as it relates to other classes as well.[4] – Steven Sharif
My question is , will Rogues be viable in AoC? It would seem to me that stealth is all a Rogue really has, along with a good opening attack and some extra evade. If the stealth is a "Shimmer" will it be good enough to get close, especially with sight detections from Rangers and Mages.
If a Rogues stealth (his main defense) is too easy to sniff out, what makes him better than just being a worse version of a fighter?
Do you believe or would you be opposed to if a Rogue Doubled down on the class and was a "Assassin" that he should then be allowed full Stealth.
This would make it where you would only have full stealth if you chose both Rogue as Primary and Secondary classes, and no other lass would be able to obtain full stealth.
I know there are many Stealth Threads and we know almost nothing about the Rogue, that being said this is a fundamental Skill that if it doesn't function well the class is Gimp from the get go.
Rogues are always a very controversial class, as there is a Love , Hate and rarely anything in between.
So what are your thoughts?
Should 1 class be able to have full stealth?
Will you play a Rogue if the stealth is sub par and easily detectable making it where you constantly are being seen?
And if you didn't want full stealth, what ability would you suggest to help the Rogue fulfill his role?
Looking forward to your comments thank you.
There will be indicators that can help players "feel out" where stealthed individuals may be.[3]
There will also be utility skills that will reveal stealthed players, such as on the Ranger archetype.[4][5][6]
Certain NPCs can also see through stealth.[4]
Stealth augments from the Rogue secondary archetype will incorporate stealth modifiers into a class' primary skills.[5]
Stealth is 100% an option in the game. It's not going to render yourself or the individual who uses the stealth completely obscured. You're still going to be able to identify- there's going to be utility skills that can reveal stealth from a PvP perspective. There's going to be perceptions that certain NPCs have that can see through stealth, like Tremor Sense or Life Sense. There are elements of mechanics that relate to stealth and how it is balanced in the game. It's not going to be similar to stealth that's been found in other games where the target is rendered completely invisible- they can make it past every enemy NPC or monster: they can use stealth at all times. These are elements that is a tit for tat. These are components of class-kits that are going to have corresponding counters as it relates to other classes as well.[4] – Steven Sharif
My question is , will Rogues be viable in AoC? It would seem to me that stealth is all a Rogue really has, along with a good opening attack and some extra evade. If the stealth is a "Shimmer" will it be good enough to get close, especially with sight detections from Rangers and Mages.
If a Rogues stealth (his main defense) is too easy to sniff out, what makes him better than just being a worse version of a fighter?
Do you believe or would you be opposed to if a Rogue Doubled down on the class and was a "Assassin" that he should then be allowed full Stealth.
This would make it where you would only have full stealth if you chose both Rogue as Primary and Secondary classes, and no other lass would be able to obtain full stealth.
I know there are many Stealth Threads and we know almost nothing about the Rogue, that being said this is a fundamental Skill that if it doesn't function well the class is Gimp from the get go.
Rogues are always a very controversial class, as there is a Love , Hate and rarely anything in between.
So what are your thoughts?
Should 1 class be able to have full stealth?
Will you play a Rogue if the stealth is sub par and easily detectable making it where you constantly are being seen?
And if you didn't want full stealth, what ability would you suggest to help the Rogue fulfill his role?
Looking forward to your comments thank you.
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Longer answer, which I suspect will be relevant to every subclass and class:
~Some people will not figure out how to play the class at all, and will likely blame it on the design, not on themselves.
~Most people will figure out how to play their class well enough to have fun doing it, but many will play their class the same way they played it in other games out of force of habit, which will prevent them from achieving their full potential in the AoC ruleset.
~A few people will have sufficiently open minds to adapt to this wonderfully complex game and they will figure out subtle ways to play their character that most people never think of. They will be masters.
Stealth not being 100% invisible is simply a counterbalance to that dmg.
Also, remember that the game will mostly be about groups and huge battles. And I highly doubt that majority of people will be able to perceive the battlefield to such a degree that a slight shimmer will be super obvious, while a shitton of abilities are going off everywhere and everyone is constantly moving.
Rogues are about positioning and timing. Stealthing yourself to backstab an enemy cleric at just the right moment when everyone is distracted is the rogue's job (again, imo), and that action doesn't really require 100% invisibility.
And of course, as tautau said, we just gotta test it in A2 to see what Intrepid see as rogue's role in a party/fight.
As for viability, Rogues in most cases are the go to archetype/class for melee DPS in raids. While the Fighter/Barbarian/pure melee archetype/class is the rival in this role, the reason the Rogue wins out is the Rogue has more tricks to survive in close melee range when fighting raid bosses. Such tricks are high dodge abilities and cheat death for strikes that would otherwise immediately kill the Rogue.
Rogues supposedly are given great disables
I hope rogue is richer in utility than in disables, through weakening poisons, status conditions, and some buffs
I also think that giving rogues more mobility than disables makes rogues more interactive
That's a direct quote from Steven, they have said in the past it will be a shimmer. Previously it looked different than the rangers camo as well. Either way I agree that it will be a wait and see what the have to offer, whether the gives interrupts or bleeds it's hard to say.
I guess I'm used to the traditional Rogue, and I will wait to see what they come up with.
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When stealth means 100% invisible, most of their important skills will likely revolve around that and the players will also come to depend on it. I would much rather have the Predator-style stealth in Ashes just be a tool amongst many for rogues, and give them many more tools that groups will actually want and can synergize off.
I think that's where I get my desire for it, being a big DAoC fan, maybe I'm hoping to relive something that will never be again. And that's ok I look forward to see what Intrepid comes up with. I will try to keep a open mind.
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The Combat Team isn't going to intentially make the Rogue substandard compared to other archetypes, ILLPeonU.
Rogue will still fit the "rock, paper, scissors" philosophy when it comes to a main archetype ... regardless of the stealth mechanics that are chosen.
We'll get to see how they play in Alpha 2.
In World PvP?
In Dungeons?
In Raids?
In Arena?
In Caravan fighting?
In Sieges?
From what I’ve seen in all the PvP videos atleast, classes all look pretty balanced and will come down to how you yourself respond in situations. My advice is to test out a lot of classes in Alpha 2 and find the playstyle that suits you. You might be naturally better at the Fighter class instead, just comes down to the player to be honest.
Anything is viable in a mmorpg, they can make any class as broken or as weak as they want.
Better point is what you would like to see them for them to be viable in your opinion based on what we currently know and have seen in the game.
Rogues: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Rogue
Stealth: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stealth
I'd like to add a question for OP and the folks of this thread; It seems like some peoples' fantasy or perception of what a Rogue should be is primarily, if not entirely focused on stealth. Is that what you prefer in your Rogue classes and archetypes in MMORPGs? Do you think the archetype itself should be centered around stealth, stealth should be just a feature, or maybe you'd like to build either way with skill trees, augments, etc?
With different builds available depending on how you spec down the talents tree
One could focus more on stealth
Another on assassin type (parkouring big burst etc)
Another with being a trickster (traps, decoys etc) and so on
Rather than stealth as the main feature, when I think of Rogue I think I want subterfuge, deception and misdirection. Tricksters. Also poisons and other alchemical things like smoke bombs and flash-bangs. Translating subterfuge, deception and misdirection into game mechanics is not easy to pull off well I think, but there are things like feign death and mirror image and the like we have seen work in other games. Not always for rogue classes, but that's where I think those skills belong.
I would like a more physical melee oriented skill tree too though, where the rogue is basically just a very evasive and mobile light- to medium-armored fighter type focusing on bleeds and poisons and fighting dirty in general. Not stealth based at all, but relying on speed and roguish techniques.
if i think about the possibilitys of the sub classes of rogue i can see something like:
rogue/summoner making copies of himself that run in a cirten direction (like yoru in valorant, or mesmer in guild wars 2)
rogue/bard that debuffs close targets buff durations and camoflaging allies close to them
rogue/ranger laying down traps that release poisons clouds that shortens the vision of ranged classes.
rogue/mage that tag their targets with magical runes that explode after a short duration
rogue/fighter that can heavily punish enemy defensiv moves like evade, block or absorb
rogue/tank that gets much more evade and hits hard after successfully defending agains enemy attacks
rogue/cleric that bind themself to their pray and redirecting parts of the dmg they take to their bound target or after binding to an ally siphoning life from their pray to the ally
Single target damage improved by conditions such as flanking and status conditions (big area of effects are not stealthy and therefore not baseline)
Strong status conditions, bleeds (may deal damage apply stat reductions such as reduced defense, speed, healing received, damage done, and increased damage from bleeds), poisons (similar to bleeds, may burn mana, prevent healing, and increase damage taken from X sources effects), possibly curses, and other conditions such as shaken
Speed is important for rogues, almost all rogue tropes are speedy
Stealth is core to rogue identity, smoke bombs are great
so you cant steal form players but npcs are fair game
crit will prolly be their frenemy.
i hope shadow step type move to get behind is the thing
Rogues are viable but you gotta take your time and not go blazing in
how nutty will it be with Rogue/Rogue Assassin
for all of you out there waiting for the Rogue demo and want to play it anyway
good luck assassing - abridged Goku
Stealth
Melee combat
Backstab/positionals/stealth-attack bonus
Poisons
Misdirection (threat manipulation in PvE)
Disables
Mobility/Evasion
Pickpocket/lockpick
If I had to pick 3 augment schools, they would be: Stealth, Poisons and Trickery (a combo of misdirection and disables)
Stealth itself can be balanced. Rogues could have a predator-like skill that works all the time. IE a stealth stance (with the tradeoff of losing something from another stance and/or a continuous mana/stamina drain and/or slower movement) that can be improved with skill points. Then give them cooldown abilities that can be used in stealth-stance that give them true short term invisibility to close the gap or get away.
PvE balance of stealth stance would be to lower mob aggro radius out of combat. In combat the stance could buff evasion/dodge
I've noticed many familiar archetypes among rogues, yet I'm inclined towards something more captivating. For me, the core elements of a rogue would include:
Shadow Magic - (Stealth, mobility, misdirection, enhancement)
Poisons - (Debuffs, DoTs, buffs)
Dueler - (high damage focus, CC, executions)
Overall, injecting a touch of fantasy could elevate rogues, granting them a commanding presence beyond the typical invisibility and backstab maneuvers.
The utilization of shadow magic affords them mastery over darkness, facilitating stealthy engagements. Beyond mere concealment, it imbues them with heightened mobility, enabling swift movements to close in on targets or vanish from sight in moments. This versatility extends to misdirection tactics, whether against mobs or players. Picture a shadowy doppelgänger, vanishing in a single strike, masquerading as the player until approached, revealing its illusory nature. Traditional techniques like backstabbing or striking from stealth to augment attack damage remain pivotal in bolstering their offensive prowess.
Poisons serve as a cornerstone for rogues, typically inducing debilitating effects over time. Expanding upon this, I envision a nuanced playstyle, intertwining various DoTs with debuffs that hinder healing or reduce skill efficiency. An intriguing twist lies in leveraging poisons to not only weaken foes but also bolster the rogue, albeit at a cost. This dual-edged approach, offering increased damage / or other effects at the expense of vulnerability or other penalties, introduces strategic depth, empowering the rogue to adapt to diverse scenarios.
The dueler archetype embodies a focus on explosive damage alongside crowd control techniques, emphasizing cunning over brute force in one-on-one encounters. Employing guile and deceit, they seize upon underhanded tactics to secure victory, prioritizing swift executions over fair fights. Such tactics may even grant advantages upon dispatching foes with specific skills, perpetuating their lethal streak.
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Are you suggesting that rogues wear heavy armor? I’m confused
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You should condense all your post into one lol.
I'm pointing out any class can use any armor, so yes rogues can use heavy armour.
I guess if you want to, but then that really isn’t a traditional rogue, beats the purpose of a highly dexterous, evading specialist, nimble and quick. Hard to imagine that in plate.
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