Greetings, glorious testers!

Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.

To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.

Less cleaves please!

DarktacoDarktaco Member
in General Discussion
Must *so* many abilities be cleaves? It is starting to seem very Guild Wars 2 like. Very casual. Everyone just mashing abilities in a chaotic pile.

There should be significantly more single target abilities and attacks. This would make the game feel far more strategic than it's current state. It is a fantastic feeling to be fighting another player in the midst of a gigantic battle and actually being able to focus them down.

It encourages players to plan their targets and communicate with each other to effectively and efficiently burn down priority targets.

This is *especially* important in games with a Trinity... Where healers become priority targets, they also become a priority to keep alive in the interest of winning the larger battle.

Please consider this. GW2 & WildStar both suffered immensely from having a billion AOE abilities and it makes the gameplay cluttered and dull - both for the players as well as people watching streams.

Comments

  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset
    I tend to agree with this. People want to do the least for the most outcome. This is the WoW mentallity of racing through the content. I personally do not think the game is designed for the average wow player however. Would'nt it be wonderful if we actually had to use our class talents for the encounters? WoW in the begining was wonderful for this. You had the mage to sheep, the rogue to sap, the druid to root, so and so forth, but as WoW progressed all these gems fall to the wayside, and its just zerg mentallity. Going back to the cleave topic, I believe that only tanks should have cleave, as a threat taunt, to draw agro. Rogues with daggers should not be able to do much if any AOE attacks, it just does not make sense. Sure they should have high damage output, but that would be from their specials, not from common grinding. Mages should have the AOE for crowd control and such, but I do think the damage should be divided per target on the output, not the top damage for every mob targeted in the spell. Classes need to be classes, and not just a different looking form of dps. Sorry, thats just my opinion lol.
    vmw4o7x2etm1.png
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    You are happy with 3 abilities per weapon and passives?
    You have bad taste.
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    You are happy with 3 abilities per weapon and passives?
    You have bad taste.

    I also played SCH for years in FFXIV had 4 rows of skills to choose from, played it cause it was known to be the most complex class. what matters is if it works and it's fun then yeah.

    and how are you going to reply just to tell me i have bad tastes do you think I come here to deal with peoples petty insecurities. take that shit to reddit
  • EndowedEndowed Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »

    You are happy with 3 abilities per weapon and passives?
    You have bad taste.

    It was 2 per weapon for a long time.
    But the game was full pvp at that time and a much better offering.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    What abilities shown have too much cleave?
  • VaknarVaknar Member, Staff
    Let's remember to be well unto one another :)
    OP, are there any specific ability examples you (or anyone viewing the thread) would like to share regarding cleave, AoE, and your specific problems with them?

    For example, you could provide examples of abilities with cleave that you like or dislike, or perhaps specific examples from Ashes of Creation you wish worked differently and how/why.
    community_management.gif
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Nothing wrong with AoE abilities. they just need to be managed in a way so you dont have ez mode AoE farming in PvE content because it can break the games economy potentially.

    As long as there is no Damage AoE cap against players, I am all for it. I will be happy running a group of 8 in big battles solely targeting disorganized zergs and deleting them.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • LineagerLineager Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    Is 6 active skills means good combat? The NW combat was the worst I've seen in my life out of dozens of MMOs.

    I'm not a huge fun of WoW, but I think their skill system for classes is quite good. For example, in La2, despite being my favorite MMO, there were not so many relevant skills. Archeage was good at freely choosing 3 branches, without forcing the magician to choose only magic, archers only archer, and doing combos, and this is what Ashes was inspired by.
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Lineager wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    Is 6 active skills means good combat? The NW combat was the worst I've seen in my life out of dozens of MMOs.

    I'm not a huge fun of WoW, but I think their skill system for classes is quite good. For example, in La2, despite being my favorite MMO, there were not so many relevant skills. Archeage was good at freely choosing 3 branches, without forcing the magician to choose only magic, archers only archer, and doing combos, and this is what Ashes was inspired by.

    Just curious how much time you spent in NW cause out of all the MMOs i've played it had the best. also like I already said before I mained SCH in FFXIV I was fine have 40 abilities it was fun, NW was also fun with 7. It just depends on how the game was made
  • LineagerLineager Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    Lineager wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    Is 6 active skills means good combat? The NW combat was the worst I've seen in my life out of dozens of MMOs.

    I'm not a huge fun of WoW, but I think their skill system for classes is quite good. For example, in La2, despite being my favorite MMO, there were not so many relevant skills. Archeage was good at freely choosing 3 branches, without forcing the magician to choose only magic, archers only archer, and doing combos, and this is what Ashes was inspired by.

    Just curious how much time you spent in NW cause out of all the MMOs i've played it had the best. also like I already said before I mained SCH in FFXIV I was fine have 40 abilities it was fun, NW was also fun with 7. It just depends on how the game was made


    300+hours and to understand NW is a one-button game would be enough for a couple of hours. Really, how you can tell NW has the best combat, when it's only has 6 skills? I don't even speak about visual side of classes. Totally trash.
  • TexasTexas Member, Alpha Two
    We tried to tell AGS their combat was crap in testing.

    I can understand very casual players liking it because it is so dumbed down, but it's also clunky and like a decade behind other action combat.
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 16
    Lineager wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    Lineager wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    Is 6 active skills means good combat? The NW combat was the worst I've seen in my life out of dozens of MMOs.

    I'm not a huge fun of WoW, but I think their skill system for classes is quite good. For example, in La2, despite being my favorite MMO, there were not so many relevant skills. Archeage was good at freely choosing 3 branches, without forcing the magician to choose only magic, archers only archer, and doing combos, and this is what Ashes was inspired by.

    Just curious how much time you spent in NW cause out of all the MMOs i've played it had the best. also like I already said before I mained SCH in FFXIV I was fine have 40 abilities it was fun, NW was also fun with 7. It just depends on how the game was made


    300+hours and to understand NW is a one-button game would be enough for a couple of hours. Really, how you can tell NW has the best combat, when it's only has 6 skills? I don't even speak about visual side of classes. Totally trash.

    all you talk about is how many skills you have, like nothing about it is a 1 click game I don't think you actually played the game. like did you main a weapon or try them all? all what did you usually use?
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 16
    Texas wrote: »
    We tried to tell AGS their combat was crap in testing.

    I can understand very casual players liking it because it is so dumbed down, but it's also clunky and like a decade behind other action combat.

    lol why do people get on here just to talk shit, you guys are just parroting bad youtubers and what they said in their clickbait videos.

    show me your steam profile so I know you actually played it
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    Texas wrote: »
    We tried to tell AGS their combat was crap in testing.

    I can understand very casual players liking it because it is so dumbed down, but it's also clunky and like a decade behind other action combat.

    lol why do people get on here just to talk shit, you guys are just parroting bad youtubers and what they said in their clickbait videos.

    show me your steam profile so I know you actually played it

    I have another question.
    Can you make a list of mmos you played for at least a week? Since none of us is talking about the OP, cleave skills, I'd like to know what mmos you have played, besides ff14 which is rotation based PvE and NW which came out 30mins ago.


    To the OP, I agree that mmos need to go focus heavily on single target. AOE in any form makes PvP a mindless zergfest.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 16
    George_Black wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    Texas wrote: »
    We tried to tell AGS their combat was crap in testing.

    I can understand very casual players liking it because it is so dumbed down, but it's also clunky and like a decade behind other action combat.

    lol why do people get on here just to talk shit, you guys are just parroting bad youtubers and what they said in their clickbait videos.

    show me your steam profile so I know you actually played it

    I have another question.
    Can you make a list of mmos you played for at least a week? Since none of us is talking about the OP, cleave skills, I'd like to know what mmos you have played, besides ff14 which is rotation based PvE and NW which came out 30mins ago.


    To the OP, I agree that mmos need to go focus heavily on single target. AOE in any form makes PvP a mindless zergfest.

    In regards to last statment there cleaves and AoE are anti zerg mechanics the smaller side will hit more targets typically per aoe attack than the larger side due to density of players in an area. Assuming AoE dont get a target cap (which most of them do in typical games of like like 3(for melee cleaves)5 (For typical aoe spell/skills) players which defeats the purpose)
    If they do AoE right there wont be an AoE cap and it will help fight zergs.

    AoE heals have to work differently though depending how strong aoe healing is, either have aoe heals heal for a large amount split between everyone or heal X amount of players priority the lowest hp.


    Most games like GW2/Crowfall and all had there aoe cap out at 5 targets max so people would stack up since 30 people ontop of each other only 1 in 6 players will be hit by the aoe which result in zergballing since it easier to heal up when only 1 in 6 players are taking dmg. but thats not the case when caps are removed and thing become a little more strategic


    In regards with PvE i can understand why people may want less AoE cleaves however if mobs are dangerous where having muiltipul attacking a tank at once can kill them mages sleep becomes more important and cleaving/aoeing down mobs become less of an option. in Everquest back in the days though a single mob was dangerous so you pretty much mezmerised (sleep) every mob but 1 and only the real good groups could handle 3+ mobs at once and even that can be sketchy. So PvE side of thing realy comes down to how difficult mobs are in group settings
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with AoE abilities. they just need to be managed in a way so you dont have ez mode AoE farming in PvE content because it can break the games economy potentially.

    As long as there is no Damage AoE cap against players, I am all for it. I will be happy running a group of 8 in big battles solely targeting disorganized zergs and deleting them.

    This comes entirely down to mob difficulty mobs when it comes to PvE, mobs are not a threat they just become mindless AoE fest (most MMO these days) older MMO typicaly it was dangerous when u had more than 1 mob active at a time and you had classes that would sleep/poly/mezz addition targets and it got sketchy everytime they were loose.

    As for PvP side of things yes 100% agree there can not be AoE caps on dmg skills (healing im 50/50 on since iot promotes zerg balling/stacking but this generaly happens due to AoE dmg skill underperforming or has a cap so might not be an issue) If AoE get caps you remove alot of strategy /tactics from large scale combat and it becomes Mindless zergballs/clumps.

  • GithalGithal Member
    edited July 16
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Let's remember to be well unto one another :)
    OP, are there any specific ability examples you (or anyone viewing the thread) would like to share regarding cleave, AoE, and your specific problems with them?

    For example, you could provide examples of abilities with cleave that you like or dislike, or perhaps specific examples from Ashes of Creation you wish worked differently and how/why.

    As long as there is diversity and the option for different builds it will be all good.
    For example some weapon attacks should be cleave, other single target. Maybe some single target weapons can have weapon talents that make them cleave and ect.
    And same for spells. You can have the option to spec more into mass spells or more into single target spells.

    more concerning is the AOE healing/buffs. Since if 1 Bard can buff the whole 50 man raid for example, the bard wont be balanced at all, since he will either be too strong in 50 man group, or too weak in 8 man group. and same for Cleric.
    So most heals and buffs should be single target so it wouldnt matter the group size. And the mass spells should affect max 8 players, But even with spells affecting max 8 players, this will still not be very balanced because you will be punishing groups with 7 or less players.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    Sounds cool - but when Ashes can have more Variety than that - then why not ?
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 16
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with AoE abilities. they just need to be managed in a way so you dont have ez mode AoE farming in PvE content because it can break the games economy potentially.

    As long as there is no Damage AoE cap against players, I am all for it. I will be happy running a group of 8 in big battles solely targeting disorganized zergs and deleting them.

    This comes entirely down to mob difficulty mobs when it comes to PvE, mobs are not a threat they just become mindless AoE fest (most MMO these days) older MMO typicaly it was dangerous when u had more than 1 mob active at a time and you had classes that would sleep/poly/mezz addition targets and it got sketchy everytime they were loose.

    As for PvP side of things yes 100% agree there can not be AoE caps on dmg skills (healing im 50/50 on since iot promotes zerg balling/stacking but this generaly happens due to AoE dmg skill underperforming or has a cap so might not be an issue) If AoE get caps you remove alot of strategy /tactics from large scale combat and it becomes Mindless zergballs/clumps.

    Honestly I'd just apply AoE caps against NPCs but not against players. Caps against NPCs would prevent effective AOE farms regardless of difficulty.

    I'd also put an AOE cap on heals to make zergs less viable as well. Capping at 8, in correlation with a full party. Requiring multiple healers for raids as well.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Githal wrote: »
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Let's remember to be well unto one another :)
    OP, are there any specific ability examples you (or anyone viewing the thread) would like to share regarding cleave, AoE, and your specific problems with them?

    For example, you could provide examples of abilities with cleave that you like or dislike, or perhaps specific examples from Ashes of Creation you wish worked differently and how/why.

    As long as there is diversity and the option for different builds it will be all good.
    For example some weapon attacks should be cleave, other single target. Maybe some single target weapons can have weapon talents that make them cleave and ect.
    And same for spells. You can have the option to spec more into mass spells or more into single target spells.

    more concerning is the AOE healing/buffs. Since if 1 Bard can buff the whole 50 man raid for example, the bard wont be balanced at all, since he will either be too strong in 50 man group, or too weak in 8 man group. and same for Cleric.
    So most heals and buffs should be single target so it wouldnt matter the group size. And the mass spells should affect max 8 players, But even with spells affecting max 8 players, this will still not be very balanced because you will be punishing groups with 7 or less players.

    You will probaly find that buff like bards only effect the group there in it probaly be the same for all aoe buffs will most likely only effect group members.
    the would be the sensible way of doing things i find.
    with the exception of long term buffs so as WoW for an example since most people familiar with it power word fortitude (+48 con buff for 1h) might apply to raid but the short term more effectvie buffing like bards will most likley be just party
  • LineagerLineager Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Apok wrote: »
    Lineager wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    Lineager wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    I also like the idea that the game does weapon attacks where your crosshair is pointed so you can literally miss a guy in front of you by not noticing you're tilled down and looking at the ground (took me some time to get used to that)

    but as much as people say they want a more grounded combat experience, I don't feel like they do. I think most people just want to run up on an enemy, hit tab, and blow their cooldowns and back off as their cooldowns reset

    Is 6 active skills means good combat? The NW combat was the worst I've seen in my life out of dozens of MMOs.

    I'm not a huge fun of WoW, but I think their skill system for classes is quite good. For example, in La2, despite being my favorite MMO, there were not so many relevant skills. Archeage was good at freely choosing 3 branches, without forcing the magician to choose only magic, archers only archer, and doing combos, and this is what Ashes was inspired by.

    Just curious how much time you spent in NW cause out of all the MMOs i've played it had the best. also like I already said before I mained SCH in FFXIV I was fine have 40 abilities it was fun, NW was also fun with 7. It just depends on how the game was made


    300+hours and to understand NW is a one-button game would be enough for a couple of hours. Really, how you can tell NW has the best combat, when it's only has 6 skills? I don't even speak about visual side of classes. Totally trash.

    all you talk about is how many skills you have, like nothing about it is a 1 click game I don't think you actually played the game. like did you main a weapon or try them all? all what did you usually use?

    Musket/Rapier (only for PVP), Bow/Spear, Frost Gauntler/Rapier, Fire staff/Frost Gauntler.
  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 17
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Apok wrote: »
    This is why I love New worlds combat system. You pick 2 weapons, then you pick 3 of 6 abilities and whatever passives you want for each weapon. you go into combat with 2 weapons 3 abilities each and an Ultimate that builds up like a final fantasy style limit break.

    Sounds cool - but when Ashes can have more Variety than that - then why not ?

    Well with active blocking, crosshairs needing to be on enemies even with melee, dodging, i-frames, swapping weapons mid combat, and being able to body block and block projectiles. It's a little more complex than your typical tab target gameplay.

    I've played MMOs with tons of skills, I mean woohoo you have a huge kit so what?

    I guess people are different, I prefer to see raw natural human talent as apposed to some care beer blowing a bunch of cool downs after locking onto someone. guess this is why in most MMOs i focus more on PvE and go play survival/shooter games for the PvP
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    AE/cleave abilities just need to be balanced properly. That includes AE threat abilities, and AE CC abilities too. Target caps are IMO terrible gameplay design. It's fine for a multi-shot type of ability (IE, hit up to 4 targets in a cone, or chain lightning hits up to 5 targets), but not for Blizzard/whirlwind/etc

    But I definitely don't want to be in a full group of 8, single target killing each of 4 mobs in a pack one by one. Then repeating that all the way through a dungeon.

    Different levels of monster difficulty is a great way to mix in AE. Minions and normal mobs die to AE, then the lieutenants/elites are killed with single target attacks.

    As far as PvP goes, if a group of people want to sit around in a tight ball they deserve the AE they get. Chokepoints look like they will be a design feature for PvP-type areas, so that's good.
Sign In or Register to comment.