Best Of

Dygz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

In PvP, you are fighting the player. That doesn't really change all that much from game to game. The combat/PvP system is in there, but it is really the other player you are fighting. PvP players are always fighting with the developers to make the combat system matter less and the player matter more (via saying they want skill to matter more). This is literally asking for developers to make games where you are playing against the same players as in every other PvP MMO.

The thing is, this is what PvP players want. They want player skill to matter more, meaning the games combat system matters less, meaning you are primarily playing against the rival player - making PvP across all games essentially the same.

Yes. Which is great for an FPS, where player skills should be most important.
But, in an RPG, character skills should be most important.

Absolutely.

The more I look at and discuss the notion of PvP focused MMORPG's, the more I think they just don't work. The core of what makes an MMO good and the core of what makes PvP good are not entierly compatible. PvP makes sense in an MMORPG in the same way crafting makes sense - it can and probably should be an important part of the game, but it should never be the focus.

It should be a support player, not the main character.

Fildserh wrote: »

I hope you can find where they mentioned that topic; I'd love to hear it.

It has been said many times, though mostly in relation to augments.

I don't know if it is still the case, but the original intent was that these trees were the tertiary means of class customization.

The first is in your choice of secondary class, and the second is your choices of augments. It is these augments that have always been talked about in relation to three builds per class.

Fildserh wrote: »

As far as I understand, for Alpha 3 the maximum level will increase to 50 (although we don't have secondary classes available yet), so I thought they would show us a level of 50 (also due to the amount of points spent).

Could you point to a single quote that says we'll get that right at the start of P3? Cause "P3" is a thing that will last years, which means that AT SOME POINT we'll get lvl50, but nowhere near soon.

Noaani wrote: »

In PvP, you are fighting the player. That doesn't really change all that much from game to game. The combat/PvP system is in there, but it is really the other player you are fighting. PvP players are always fighting with the developers to make the combat system matter less and the player matter more (via saying they want skill to matter more). This is literally asking for developers to make games where you are playing against the same players as in every other PvP MMO.

The thing is, this is what PvP players want. They want player skill to matter more, meaning the games combat system matters less, meaning you are primarily playing against the rival player - making PvP across all games essentially the same.

Yes. Which is great for an FPS, where player skills should be most important.
But, in an RPG, character skills should be most important.

What I will add is some Nebula Island information just so that we do not think that a certain approach is a solution.

Nebula Island has multiple sections, 1 Peace, 4 PvP always. You can navigate freely from the 'Peace' one to three of the others. The last one has a gate so 'winner takes all' for a time.

You can flee from the edge of the PvP ones into the peace one, even enough so that there is a bit of PvE to be had.

Most areas have the same drops, but the Peace area's mobs are sparse compared to the PvP areas.

All of that works. Because if you find a time you are alone or your party is the only party in Peace area, you do almost as well as you would in the PvP area. If the PvP area is clear, you can PvE farm it and maybe form up with people around who don't want to PvP you and would rather cooperate. If you choose one of the easier navigation points you can PvP area and when you lose fall back to the PvE area, catch your breath, then dive in again for another chance at PvP-ing whoever is there.

The mobs are basically no challenge except stacked up (I can solo the entire PvE camp next to the PvP area) but this is 'fine' because the drops aren't great anyway in either area.

And yet, this still didn't work for the reason iccer stated. Big guilds monopolizing. You can only spend X hours per WEEK in this area, Peace or PvP. But they used to have recharge stones you could sell on AH, and that was how it happened.

Now those can't be purchased. There is no matchmaking, but it's at least clear that if you get pushed out of an area, calling your whole guild to stop whatever they are doing to teleport in to help you push out someone else at the cost of their own time isn't ideal.

This is the 'equivalent' of 'the disincentive to travel' found in games like BDO and maybe one day Ashes. TL also now has bigger dungeons that are too big to lock down (and not necessarily worth it), but I'd bet that as soon as the next expansion releases, the first dungeon to open in that zone will be monopolized every ingame night by whatever guild wins, unlike now, where I can see shouts for grouping in dungeons during game night-time (disclaimer, I don't play on the most cutthroat server of the region obv).

tl;dr - The only difference between Nebula Island working (for what it was) and not working, was 'the ability of strong guilds to sit there indefinitely and lock out others', and they did this even when it cost them money, to the point where I have heard that some players would 'swipe' just to pay to stay longer. Bear in mind this game has PvP events that do encompass whole zones, WarGames, and arenas. This was not 'Oh I came online and I want to PvP but can't find a place to do it'.

(only responding to the 'ping', no intention to derail, because it only helps the discussion if people actually have all the information)

Nebula Island?

I don't think you will like it. Your understanding of Nebula is correct.

Throne and Liberty is still, and will continue to be, a game for a demographic that is adjacent to, but does not generally overlap with, the demographic that wants to play Ashes of Creation.

But neither TL nor Ashes is 'where they should be' yet. TL needed things like Nebula Island just as much as Ashes needs to not have them. TL needed their Housing update, to match all those people who want to decorate their house but don't want to deal with what that means in Ashes.

On issues of things like 'Economy Type' and 'Enhancing/Enchanting' the two games could be the same, or there could be a third game that splits the difference (I can't say I know of anyone from either side who would be the target audience of that game since I haven't met anyone who thinks Ashes economy/enhancing is good, but I assume those people are just silent).

There's no reason I can think of for you to go back to/retry TL. Everything I understand says 'that game is not for you, and that's ok'.

i think you are going to get more skill points now (they had mentioned it before). instead of getting a point every level, you will get a point every 1/4, 2/4 and 3/4 of a level. we still won't be able to max all the skills though. they said that every char will have 3 builds (and i suppose hybrids too), so gotta pick one

Orym wrote: »

I stopped reading at "I will start by saying, like many i bought into the project almost 8 years ago, with the expectation that the game would have released maybe 4-5 years ago"

TBF Steven DID promise a pre-2020 release It's just that he didn't know shit about gamedev and thought that just throwing money at people will magically create one of the biggest mmos out there out of nothing.

lamina5432 wrote: »

So on PvP I agree with the points is the game needs a more fluid way to trigger it. The goal should be a more flexible oh there's this thing I want and this player is going to take it if I don't fight them for it. The current look I see especially with the addition of the lawless zone is we are herding our PvPers here so they don't bother the rest of the game. Which is the opposite approach it should take, good PvP should lead a normal player to want to engage in it. Honestly I think a majority of the people that "dislike" the idea of PvP is not because they wouldn't enjoy it but because of the stigma and perceived bar of entry it has. Some of the biggest games being literal PvP games I.E. League of legends, Fortnite, CSgo. It's the notion that PvP in an MMO is bad or griefing for those participating because it's not shown as a regular players fun game loop.

The other reason more casual players don't want to PvP especially in a game like ashes is the losses associated with it. This is a matter of how the game provides a way to recoup their losses. This is rough since Ashes wants consequences to matter and I personally have no idea on mitigating this. The best would be how bad the corruption system starts out and how to work it off. Losing a piece of equipment on level one corruption is not going to help.

I do agree, and I think we have discussed this previously somewhere (maybe in this thread even). The game needs to create that "feeling" of PvP being a regular gameplay loop, of it being meaningful. The whole setting, world, environment, story, etc. should make you feel that there's always danger, that PvP is a viable option and an expectation in certain moments, etc. Otherwise, it mostly will feel like griefing.

(Griefing refers to deliberately disruptive or malicious actions in online games, meant to annoy or frustrate other players and negatively impact their enjoyment of the game. It can involve various actions like attacking other players, destroying structures, stealing items)

In a lot of games that I've played in the past, it just felt like griefing.


The thing is, the PvP games you listed are lobby based, match based, PvP games. PvP in MMOs is completely different, and I'm just not sure if it can create that same feeling of PvP being "normal".
In MMOs there are a few "issues":

1) Gear difference > skill difference. There's no matchmaking based on skill or gear, you will dunk on low geared players, and high geared players will dunk on you.

That's just how open-world works, unless certain zones and content is just made for high geared players, so that low geared players don't even venture into those zones.
But again, due to the current design, those high geared players can go and PvP anywhere, against anyone, as there's nothing really stopping them. Corruption works equally for everyone, and it mainly works to "especially discourage" killing low level players - but it doesn't take gear level into account (and if the progression system makes it so that the difference in gear has a really high impact on your power, then you have the same frustration as if it was a fight between a low lvl and a high lvl player).

2) MMOs are not lobby/match based, instead it's a persistent world. You will see the same players often, where in lobby based games, you just won't (unless you are very high rank in those games, where the pool of similar players is just lower, and you do meet the same players often).

3) You usually do other stuff, like traveling, exploring, gathering, crafting, or PvE content in general, and PvP can often feel like a disruption or griefing.

Players often do not want to be interrupted and griefed when out there in the open world, leveling, exploring, etc. But, when you create content like world bosses, open-world dungeons, etc. you come in with an expectation that there will be some PvP involved. You often prepare for it. There's competition for the farming spot, for a boss, etc. - there's friction created, and not everyone can expect a reward being given out for them. I'm absolutely fine with this sort of content, and PvP in this setting being not only a viable, but a preferred option.
The issue is, that same PvP can and will happen elsewhere too, where there is no real competition for anything. It will happen because some people just want to grief others.


Now @Azherae might say that Throne & Liberty is a perfect game for a player like myself, but I did play it, and I don't think it is.
What I disliked there is that world bosses had a pre-selected spot where they spawn at pre-determined times, with a small PvP area around it.
What I want is something more dynamic, with a much larger PvP area. I want an entire zone to go into a "conflict" mode, where PvP is enabled, where there is risk being there, but maybe also reward. Similar to how Archeage worked.
Also, while night-time dungeons enabled PvP, there really was no point to them (unless they involved a world boss), as the top guild(s) will almost always monopolize it. Also, PvPing for a spot there just wasn't worth it back when I played. Maybe you get a few more tags, and overall farm a bit faster, but even when there's no PvP enabled, you can just make a group and just farm stuff easily anyways.

Ideally, the world should have PvP enabled almost everywhere, rather than just a tiny PvP circle on the map at certain times of the day.


Here's an idea:

With the lawless zones being introduced, I think they can create a much more interesting system in Ashes, where zones have a varying conflict level, let's say from Conflict (being the lowest) to Lawless (being the highest level).
Each level should decrease corruption gain and maybe even the overall effect of corruption - and in lawless zones you don't generate corruption at all for killing people, or if you are already corrupted - it has no effect on you in that zone.
This way, a Conflict zone might as well be "Safe", as the corruption is really punishing, it's really easy to become corrupted, and really nobody in their right mind will look to turn corrupted there anyways.
Then a few levels above that, you get regular corruption gains, where sometimes it might be worth PKing, if there's a reward, corruption is moderately punishing, and moderately easy/hard to gain.
Lawless, FFA PvP basically, avoid those zones if you don't want to PvP basically.

Now what should influence these levels of conflict? Dynamic events, the amount of activity going on in the zone itself, in open-world dungeons, etc. - or even certain world events, world bosses, etc. that would turn the zone into higher conflict level zone. Story arcs???
All of this is planned to exist in the game, they should just use it to actually impact the world and make it dynamic, like they planned to. This is one way to do it - by introducing PvP/Conflict aspect into it.

This also helps those "PvE" players, to simply avoid high risk areas, if they don't want to PvP. Though this might be a bit tough, considering the travel times, and a lack of fast travel in general. It's still a much better solution I think for everyone, even the PvP players.
If PvP players want to PvP, they will look to go to those higher conflict areas, where they most probably will find it.
Rewards should probably scale accordingly, but not to the point lawless or high risk areas are just way better than anything else. The reward should be the experience itself.