Best Of

Azherae wrote: »

Wait, why exactly do you believe this is true? I don't think we have a 'citizen limit' (if so plz link me or quote wiki).

It has a soft limit through the citizenship costs. Or at least that was the plan previously.

So, while smaller nodes will probably be filled with megaguilds (if those decide to overtake a smaller node) - I'm not sure if metros (or whatever they are called now) will be overtakeable by a single entity. I guess some truly huge meta-guild with hundreds upon hundreds of members, but at that point I feel like splitting your forces into a wider control structure would be more beneficial.

But who knows.

Yeah, I mean... I prefer PvE, but I like PvP sometimes... especially for about an hour while defending towns.
So Sieges are a great feature for me.
But, I also need to be able to choose when I engage in PvP, rather than other plays choosing for me by attacking me. So, the Corruption/Karma system isn't going to work for me unless the Death Penalties are inconsequential and I can basically ignore them.

I play RPGs to cooperate with other players for PvE play. And I usually prefer to use Diplomacy/Charisma/Stealth to avoid combat and make friends with potential enemies rather than attack.
My playstyle is the polar opposite of Risk v Reward.

I dunno what you mean by "PvE players" because Ludullu and I do not have the same concept of "PvE Player" and I'm not sure whether your concept is closer to his or closer to mine.
For me, a "PvE player" is someone who typically plays WoW and EQ/EQ2 on PvE Only servers. A "PvP/PvX Player is someone who typically plays WoW and EQ/EQ2 on PvP servers.
I typically started WoW/EQ/EQ2 on PvP-Optional servers, but would eventually rage-quit them after several months/years and move over to the PvE-only servers because I hate playing on the same servers as PvPers.

The first couple of years of the Forums, every few months, it would be common to have people who just learned about Ashes ask about PvE-Only servers. And everyone would tell them "No, PvE-Only servers, but don't fret... Corruption will make life comfortable for you." And... since Ashes was going to be the only new MMORPG to release Before 2020, those people would say, "...okaaaay."
But, now, those people don't have to be at all concerned about Corruption because there will be plenty of other games better suited to their playstyles - including updated versions of EQ2 and WoW.
I mean... since 2020, we even have a new sub-genre of Cozy MMORPG.
(I would be playing Cozy MMORPGs before playing a Risk v Reward MMORPG.)
Most likely they will not be playing Ashes

To me, Ludullu's concept of "PvE Players" is gamers who would be playing WoW and EQ/EQ2 on a PvP server but mostly focus on PvE.
Players who aren't bothered by the PvP happening around them and who, for some reason, are OK with other players fighting to protect them instead of fighting to protect themselves.
So, yes... those kind of "PvE Players" who play WoW/EQ/EQ2 on PvP servers and/or enjoy playing ArcheAge and Lineage II will probably have a ton of fun if Ashes has a successful release.
Especially if there is no other new MMORPG with the focus on PvP/PvX/Risk v Reward that Ashes has.

Saabynator wrote: »

I dont think I have ever seen an interview, where Steven said 2020?

The Forums says you only joined in 2023, so no surprise that you aren't aware of all the times Steven said that they would release Ashes within 3 years of the Kickstarter. Even in November 2019, Steven was still saying "Before 2020" was technically still possible.
https://mein-mmo.de/en/ashes-of-creation-says-release-before-2020-and-no-fear-about-it,264504/
https://tracker.gg/checkpoint/articles/ashes-of-creation

Saabynator wrote: »

I think that open development forces this fatigue a bit. Its up to the persons participating, to make sure they control their expectations. Everyone wants to help, and everyone wants to be in it. But its not a game yet, and people need to be absolutely aware of that. You got critique? Great! Make it constructive. You got ideas? Great! I am sure they read the boards here for exactly that.

I mean... really expectations are mostly controlled by the devs.
People who are not game devs tend to expect announced deadlines to be met - at least somewhat close to the stated date. Game Devs know that development dead lines are rarely met.
This is why there is always tension around "open development".

Steven is a gamer who wrangled enough money to create his own development studio. He thought he was unique in being a gamer wanting to make a game created by gamers for gamers. He thought that would be enough to speed through development. And then continues to learn that developing MMORPG takes close to a decade and... announced dates are going to be missed. And gamers are likely to become irate about missed dates... that were "PROMISED".

With Ashes, after 8 years, people are expecting more of the features intended to make Ashes unique - like dynamic Nodes, Sieges, Secondary Archetypes and Augments. But, Intrepid is struggling with features gamers are expecting to be fairly easy and fundamental - like a decently working Crafting Economy.
And fairly decent Questing. They may be taking decent combat, Dungeons and Raids for granted.

Saabynator wrote: »

I think you are wrong about the hype though. It might die out now, but they are not even trying. When there is a launch date set, you will start to see advertisement, streamers, videos, interviews.... It will blow the frag up

We shall see. I think Ashes will release too late to "blow the frag up".
Nodes seemed like a super cool way for players to "build" their own homes and villages Before 2020.
Valheim released in Feb 2021 - and gave us a different solution for player-built homes and Villages.
I hate being stuck in Endgame loops (especially when it's just Dungeons and Raids) for years while waiting for an Expansion. Dynamic Nodes are intended to solve that, but... by 2022, most games I play have Seasons - new content and story every 3-4 months, rather than having to wait 12-24 months. So... I no longer need Nodes as an Endgame solution.

Gamers waiting for the next great PvP-centric game, focused on Risk v Reward, similar to ArcheAge and Lineage II might still flock to Ashes when it releases. We can expect those players to be hyped because that is the specific playstyle for which Steven is creating the game.
But, it's most likely that most MMORPG fans will already happily be playing other games that don't have such a heavy focus on PvP/Risk v Reward.

Ludullu wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

But, it's most likely that most MMORPG fans will already happily be playing other games that don't have such a heavy focus on PvP/Risk v Reward.

By the time Ashes releases, the private server with L2 on UE4 will be polished much better, so anyone who was tired of playing the exact same old version of L2 will simply play that, instead of trying out Ashes (this is already the case for thouuusands of people).

This is concurrents on the testing phase of that server.


And that is an old game (even though some changes have been introduced to the gearing/class balance and mobs) with an even harsher grind, yet people are more than willing to play it. THIS is the audience I've been talking about when I said "yeah, I think Ashes can hit 200-300k subs worldwide, if it delivers on its promises".

If even ancient L2 can get over 10k concurrents - Ashes could easily have 50-70k+, which would be right around 200-300k subs overall.

And there's still a chance it hits that, though we'll definitely see huge chunks of that potential playerbase being eaten away by all the other mmos with similar systems, but more attractive parts in other places (like better raiding or better pvp or better econ or better questing, etc).

If Ashes delivers on what it promised, the only real 'problem' I can see it having is that it's a very 'exclusive' kind of MMORPG, and I don't mean 'it excludes players or player types'. I mean that it demands a level of dedication that makes it difficult to find time to play other MMORPGs (or sometimes just deal with life stuff), by nature.

This is one of the harsher parts of PvP MMORPGs with less protection.

"I stopped playing months ago and now I'm lost."
"I got into an accident and couldn't play for a month."
"Exams came up, had to cut back."

Ashes is less friendly to these situations when the player is not a casual player. Less invested players can come and go because they're not trying to hold onto their guild's position, world state, or Freehold.

People who actually care and then have life disruptions often get kicked out of guilds for inactivity, 'hold back' their groups if they were critical for harder content, or simply lose their anchor, and that's in games where you can't come back and find that your literal home was destroyed.

I feel like I kinda caused this derail(?) so I'm just reminding that the only reason we got here was 'trying to talk about how Ashes can't rely on uniqueness to win out'. The quality of the game's goalpoint was never in question, nor did I mean to go into 'if I think they will reach it'.

Just the 'yeah this isn't special/unique enough to get huge traction anymore (and for many players never was)'.

Saabynator wrote: »

Its free when it comes out, everyone can try it.

It will not be free. It will cost $15 in godknows which year, by which point those $15 could be someone's entire egg, so paying for a "not for everyone" random mmo with slow leveling and open world pvp will not be on people's priority lists.

Saabynator wrote: »

I think your underestimating the pull a MMO with an indie CEO like Steven has, with a game of so long a development time, will have.

And I think you're underestimating the sheer hate for those kinds of mmos, because pretty much all of them have either completely failed, or have been deemed scams, because they've been in development for nearly a decade, if not more.

And by the time Ashes comes out - it WILL be over a decade of development, and that's the first thing people will hear about it. And you know what "this game has been in development over a decade" phrase creates? Very high expectations. And Ashes will never meet them, no matter how well the team does.

Saabynator wrote: »

Mark my words, when the actual hype train is started from Intrepids side, and the advertisement starts to ramp it.... It will reach a lot of people, and many will try it.

Steven needs to not go bankrupt before that, if he wants to advertise this game to that extent. And it's gonna be real damn hard w/o pulling in more money. And pulling in more money in pretty much any way (other than his own of course) would give the outsiders even more ammo to say "oh, this is a SCAM scam, huh".

Also, I'm sure that Ashes will pull in people in its first month. I'd even wager that it'll pull around a million people, depending on the world and game industry situation at the time. But that million will leave reaaaaal quickly. And it'll leave even faster if all the competitors or games with similar mechanics will have already released by that point and have pre-established audiences and a steady pace of updates.

As I always say, I hope I'm wrong on all of my negative assumptions, but god damn have I been right on almost every god damn one of them so far, which does not help my outlook on things.

I'd assume that bigger guilds would have more money to throw at the problem.

That's how it works in every other game I'm aware of.

I agree that a much wider control structure would be beneficial though, especially since Trade/Election collusion is much more powerful than 'one big guild piled into one City'.