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Kallysha wrote: »

lawless zones are great for roamers/gankers or whoever organizes and wants to do a zvz/bvb, worry not there will eventually be other gankers after those same, this just for the sheer splendor of pvping with other pvpers (pvers venturing themselves there are just collateral damage) 'want risk for both the victim and the attacker.' yeah the victim already did took the risk of venturing himself in there which led him to get attacked/ambushed, and well the attacker also has the risk of getting himself killed, goes for both ways)

I want proper balancing for corruption, not what we have right now. And by proper balancing I mean that the PKer who has a 0 PK counter can kill 2-3 times, which would be cleansable on mobs within roughly the same amount that the victim would need to return to the same place (this design would also require a much better placement of ember springs).

This way the victim has to gamble whether they really want to lose more of their stuff (and time) by dying to someone who might be on their first kill and that kill will go completely unpunished, or the victim should just fight back and not only lose less but also have a chance of winning the fight. This was also Steven's initial plan, which is exactly why flagged people are meant to lose less stuff on death.

But none of that works in the context of a lawless zone, because the victim always knows that their attacker will go unpunished, because the kill is always free. All while the attacker has barely any risk, for not only their loot on potential death is lessened, but they're also sure in their pvp abilities, which simply means that they're way more likely to win a fight of their choosing.

This is pretty much the same issue that caravans have. The attackers suffer no real penalty, they have pretty much 0 risk, yet they not only reap the reward of spoiling someone else's gameplay, but they also get the loot from it.

This then ties into my P.S. of wanting only gear decay for sanctioned pvp, because this way more people would be willing to/intersted in participating in it. Intrepid immediately experienced the issue with the current system of wars when "pvpers" would simply wardec people in nodes, immediately gank them and loot their bodies, right by the storage vendor.

And that issue then led to several overcorrections in design, that in themselves took weeks to implement (with several bad implementations). None of this would've happened if we only had decay as a penalty (AS WAS PREVIOUSLY PLANNED, STEVEEEEEEEN!).

In other words, gankers would still exist just fine, but they'd simply have a higher risk floor, which helps the game to have more than just ganker-pvpers as its audience.

This then also requires corrupted players to only be visible on the BH map, rather than on everyone's. Which requires BHs to even exist (and right now I'm fairly sure that system will be gone too). And the cat/mouse chase between BHs and PKers would be its own good source of proper high stakes pvp for the gankers.

And I'd fully support (and have suggested several times) a system where the PKer would only drop items if they were killed by a BH, so that the cat/mouse chase happens purely between those types of players, rather than "a whole village with pitchforks are hunting a local monster" type of deal.

All of this would result in an overall pvx setup of

• pver is farming mobs/gatherables
• a ganker kills them
• BH sees the PKer on their map and starts running after them
• the PKer now has a timer and has to kill as many mobs as they can in hopes of cleansing corruption
• once the PKer has 4+ PKs under their belt, that timer gets exponentially longer
• PK count reduction methods should be balanced around node-related activities, to help nodes grow better

I've also suggested a system that would return the victim's mats to them if the PKer got caught by the BH, but that's a whole separate thing.

To me, all of that stuff above is much more fun and interesting than "duuuhhhh, I can murder whoever I want in this zone w/o a single shred of punishment. And I also most likely play a Rogue, so I can escape anyone who tries to chase me too, so I have even less risk".

Kallysha wrote: »

*A land of milk and honey plus ponies* yeah pvpers will only stick around if there is pvp happening, regarding pve content we only do pretty much what we are forced to do...

Which is exactly why I said I want PvXers in a PvX game. I played a PvX game for 12 years and it had more open world pvp than majority (if not all) other mmos I've heard about. And that game had this exact corruption system (but with better balancing) and relied on wars rather than on lawless zones.

Kallysha wrote: »

well there is corruption tho hence why pvpers want the lawless zones so they can pvp with each other without corruption on the horizon, wich is a system made pretty much as a safe "instance" for you pvers, so the irony

Addressed this above.

Also, when I suggested those "pvpers" go to the tropic islands that are still lawless (afaik) - they said "it's not about thaaat! We want to gank people over mobs rather than just pvp". And the same was said in the context of arenas as well. I'm sure there's gonna be some people that do just want to properly fight each other, but I'm not sure if they're the majority, in this particular context.

Kallysha wrote: »

'zerg control everything and everyone' yet to see that happening...so far havent seen such

Do we even have zergs in Alpha right now? I think Pirates were the biggest ones, but Lyneth' culture wasn't really about that iirc.

And in P1 Vyra was all about deathballs running around ganking each other. Though, what a surprise, they didn't even need lawless zones for that.

Which mostly goes back to my point of "pvpers", who're asking for lawless zones, not being real pvpers and instead just being gankers who wanna murder people w/o punishment.

First 6 years of this game's development it was presented as "murderhoboing is not a thing in this game". And yet here we are... And yeah, I know, "everything is subject to change". Which is exactly why I'll keep telling Intrepid that this is a shitty-ass subject to have changed.

Kallysha wrote: »

now if they would do lawless zones on a rotation instead of static zones, then you wouldnt needed to be afraid of not getting that precious loot, just saying

From Steven's words, the lawlessness brings the bigger rewards. Cause he believes that having a literal ffa zone on murder will somehow increase risk for the strongest players in the realm.

And I'm doing a storm in a cup, because I'm worried about the consequences of these kinds of actions. We all knew that Steven was already way more lenient towards pvpers, but now he's getting deeper and deeper into an echo chamber full of those pvpers who're yelling at him about their preferred design, rather than something that would create a pvx game and not a pvp one.

I gave this example before, but I know from personal experience what happens when a game that's supposed to have the pvp systems that were promised for Ashes suddenly gets a lawless zone. None of those other systems get interacted with, while the only ones interacting with the lawless stuff are the strongest/biggest players on the server. This then inevitably leads to complete drain of the playerbase, because those big players become even bigger, due to getting literal BiS loot from a pvp zone that they dominate, while everyone else on the server can't do shit.

Afaik TL players have been complaining about zergs dominating pvp zones since release of the game. @Azherae , correct me if I'm wrong in remembering that. And TL has those exact "rotating lawless zones".

Imo Steven is killing any meaningful, complex and deep pvp in Ashes by going down the lawless zone route. Remember this tweet when only the big guilds remain on the server, while everyone else has either left or is simply passively playing a tiny part of the game (this is usually a super minority of people).

Azherae wrote: »

Oh no, we're at 'Ludullu isn't a PvPer'.

It only goes downhill from here.

Nah, they do have a point. I'm not a pvper. I'm a PvXer. From the game that had PvX rather than AA's faction-based bs (though yes, iirc it also had PKing of your own people).

I did enjoy arenas for their pure pvpness, because it let my guilds train newbies in pvp w/o losing a shitton of xp. And I also loved the ranked 1v1 arena in L2.

But none of that has anything to do with the sheer shittiness and laziness of lawless zones that will 100% ruin the game for an even bigger majority of people than what other systems in the game will.

Also, this


We're literally 10 steps closer to being a purely pvp game. Proper risk and investment for the stronger party, so that they can't just bully everyone on the server? Fuuuuck thaaaaat. We're giving those fuckers THE BIGGEST SNOWBALL POSSIBLE!

Here's live footage of a zerg megaguild rolling over everyone in one of them lawless zones with a boss that has BiS mats for crafting


Surely nothing bad will happen to the game after this design is implemented

Ludullu wrote: »

Nah, they do have a point. I'm not a pvper.

But none of that has anything to do with the sheer shittiness and laziness of lawless zones that will 100% ruin the game for an even bigger majority of people than what other systems in the game will.

We're literally 10 steps closer to being a purely pvp game. Proper risk and investment for the stronger party, so that they can't just bully everyone on the server? Fuuuuck thaaaaat. We're giving those fuckers THE BIGGEST SNOWBALL POSSIBLE!

Here's live footage of a zerg megaguild rolling over everyone in one of them lawless zones with a boss that has BiS mats for crafting


Surely nothing bad will happen to the game after this design is implemented

couldnt disagree more, i think you are the one doing a storm in a cup; i mean by what i have seen from alpha, people at the start were afraid it would be a massive gank box and yet not at all, there is hardly any major pvp happening whatsoever (hence why game looks already so dead), the 'big' streamer that had a huge megaguild/Community nowhere to be seen... now if they would do lawless zones on a rotation instead of static zones, then you wouldnt needed to be afraid of not getting that precious loot, just saying

You know that even if I explain it in full, the most likely answer will just be 'nuh uh! Ashes is special and will be different!'

But yes, I have a growing pile of examples of outcomes and even the measures NCSoft/Amazon were forced to take. The important thing though is, none of those measures actually reduced the amount of PvP except the Bosses one (and that was an almost binary change that caused a lot of people like me to lose access to the type of PvX Ashes claims it will go for).

But my post was about the fact that once we get to the point where you are hearing that from people consistently, the separation is near-complete.

Ludullu wrote: »

Kallysha wrote: »

now if they would do lawless zones on a rotation instead of static zones, then you wouldnt needed to be afraid of not getting that precious loot, just saying

From Steven's words, the lawlessness brings the bigger rewards. Cause he believes that having a literal ffa zone on murder will somehow increase risk for the strongest players in the realm.

And I'm doing a storm in a cup, because I'm worried about the consequences of these kinds of actions. We all knew that Steven was already way more lenient towards pvpers, but now he's getting deeper and deeper into an echo chamber full of those pvpers who're yelling at him about their preferred design, rather than something that would create a pvx game and not a pvp one.

I gave this example before, but I know from personal experience what happens when a game that's supposed to have the pvp systems that were promised for Ashes suddenly gets a lawless zone. None of those other systems get interacted with, while the only ones interacting with the lawless stuff are the strongest/biggest players on the server. This then inevitably leads to complete drain of the playerbase, because those big players become even bigger, due to getting literal BiS loot from a pvp zone that they dominate, while everyone else on the server can't do shit.

Afaik TL players have been complaining about zergs dominating pvp zones since release of the game. @Azherae , correct me if I'm wrong in remembering that. And TL has those exact "rotating lawless zones".

Imo Steven is killing any meaningful, complex and deep pvp in Ashes by going down the lawless zone route. Remember this tweet when only the big guilds remain on the server, while everyone else has either left or is simply passively playing a tiny part of the game (this is usually a super minority of people).

i've tried tl too people who want to avoid pvp can easily do it, because time gated or instanced.
And here i feel he is actually leaning more toward the pvers, since pvp is pretty much none existent so far.
As you are not an actual pvper you cant understand what us pvpers want which is simply consistent pvp.

Azherae wrote: »

But my post was about the fact that once we get to the point where you are hearing that from people consistently, the separation is near-complete.

what separation care to explain? is it between a pver and pvper? well its as clear as water when mixed with oil you cant compare both when one lacks the mental competitive capacity the other has

Ludullu wrote: »

As for why - it's to prove that all the "pvpers" whining about lawless zones going away simply want to gank people, rather than wanting real pvp. Oh, and for those who DO want to just pvp - arenas would be there for them.

It starts to be very clear you are not a pvper, otherwise you wouldnt even say such a thing; arenas and lawless zones are not the same and lawless zones should exist...