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Re: Fixing the Class system
AirborneBerserker wrote: »George_Black wrote: »AirborneBerserker wrote: »The 'Design' consists of two parts, an engine that looks capable of any alteration imaginable and a second Separate set of intentions on how to utilize that to alter skills, that intent is indicated by the examples that have been given and THIS is what looks to be underwhelming. Players have every right to say that this would be inadequate to meet their expectations, players have expectations which they organically bring to any game and which are not going to just go away because the design offers less.
While this is mostly right. The design also includes the amount of time to level (200-300 hours to max level), How people interact with each other (PvP always on). Diversity of playstyle (can people play the thing they want). Diversity of roles (1 for Healer and Tank). How many abilities each base class will have (35-40). Among many other things.
The Irony is I actually understand the system better then they do because they're thinking of the system in a vacuum rather then how all the other systems will pressure people and interact with the class system, and they aren't thinking about how important the psychological aspect of having fun is when people are doing something that is hard, or boring.
So now I'm probably going to have to make another post fully explaining why there IS a problem even though i figured most people that have been on here could probably see that given I've only been following the game for a little over a month now.
At this point I wouldn't bother.
I'd wait for the locked A2 forum section to talk with actual testers, not people killing time online, looking for petty arguments.
No no, this is helpful for me and of all the people that need to realize there is a problem THESE are the people to talk to. The testers will probably just nod in agreement. The devs, I'm sure, have already noticed what I'm talking about.
Well, don't keep us waiting, tell us what is the problem.
Is it the fact that you think half of the subclasses will be useless, and that meta will push people into 1-2 obvious choices per class? Because we simply don't know that this is going to be true.
Is it just the fact that you think augments will not be enough to create unique feeling classes? Because again, we don't know that, until we see Intrepid's implementation of this system.
Or, is it just the fact that each class combination will get it's own unique name, and people might be baited into thinking it will be whole another class with whole other set of abilities?
Idk, these 2 comments above sound reeeeally pretentious.
iccer
1
Re: Mega Dungeons
what about all the other mega dungeons?
I'm just bringing up that a mega dungeon can be anything, what will Intrepid and the community want?
I don't know because I have no idea which systems and how many systems AoC will have, we literally don't have a list with the systems the game will have in regard of populating a dungeon and it's mechanics
Re: Fixing the Class system
In their core function as a magic damage dealing class - yes they will remain largely the same.
The way they will achieve that core role however will be different (IMO), HOW different remains to be seen.
Which is why I suggested earlier to flash out how you want these classes to differ from one another WITHIN the presented confines of the augment system, because it should be possible to do that, right? (And this is a serious question: In what way would you design the augments so that you would think it's a cool mechanic?)
I see primary archetype determining role and this is a broad scope, a Ranger is a "Ranged DPS" but within that you can have stealthy sniper, run-n-gun, volleyfire suppressor, Legolas wanabee etc. Thouse are tactical and playstyle differences and they can only be achived with radical augmentation changes, not flavor changes wich just 'add' onto the skill.
I am asking for and brainstorming playstyle varients for the classes in the light of radical changes and with the intent to create a simple description of that playstyle which synthesises both archetypes. This is healtheir then trying to design augments for an individual skill. See ny Class Fantasy thread for examples, I'd like to produce a description for all 64 classes.
If you want a stealthy sniper, run-n-gun, volleyfire suppressor, Legolas wanabee, etc. - how do you think you will be able to achieve that?
Certainly not only through augments, but through skill and passive choices, aka build, and also gear, weapons, AND augments on top of that to add more to it.
Then in this case, you should argue for a better skill/talent tree system, with lots of choices, or rather paths to go in.
Augments will only be added on top of that, to further alter the class, by adding extra effects, procs, modifying abilities, and importantly, changing visuals.
Let's take the Ranger example:
Ranger at its core is a ranged dps. You could go either machine gun style aka pewpewpew, or sniper. As you could see in the showcase, that would also depend on which weapon you picked.
Weapons will have passives, that will influence how your class plays.
How to make your pewpewpew Ranger 101:
- First, you have to select abilities that fit that playstyle. Then you use the correct weapon, and gear for it.
Now let's say you want a specific type of a pewpewpew Ranger.
- Ranger + Bard would be a cool idea to go for, if you go for Bard's debuff school with your augments.
Now your pewpewpews will apply debuffs, which will help you and your allies take the enemies down.
Visually, your class will also look different compared to the regular ranger, even though you are using the same base abilities. It will have its own theme.
You then choose passives to supplement this idea, further enhancing your ability to perform the following role and playstyle.
- What if you picked the Bard's buff school?
Imagine using the rain of arrows ability, and all allies standing inside will receive a buff while the arrows fall.
You get the idea.
Another example:
- Ranger + Mage
Now your arrows are imbued by certain element, they can apply burning, chill, electrocute.
Let's say you use Fire school of augmentation.
Imagine that rain of arrows just raining down fire, literally. Maybe that also applies some elemental shred, so any enemies standing there get reduced fire resistance. Great area denial tool, especially if you have a bunch of fire mages in your group. Maybe that Somersault ability that we saw will basically leave a blazing trail beneath you, with fire augment.
Visuals will be sick, and you will again play slightly differently.
Your playstyle does actually change depending on what augment you pick, as you will look to use the same ability differently or rather for a different purpose. But main thing is, ability selection, gear, and weapons.
Let's use another example:
- Ranger + Rogue
Obviously this would give you more mobility and maybe some stealth. Great for your run-n-gun playstyle.
Abilities will grant you movement speed, your mobility skills will maybe transform a bit, you get a dash, more crit, crit after exiting stealth, etc. Perfect for kiting, or maybe using stealth, nuking an enemy, and then escaping. Oh, and let's not forget, your visuals will change, maybe it won't be the green vomit like with the default ranger, but a darker theme.
You get the idea hopefully.
This is the potential I'm talking about, and I'm being somewhat conservative with my examples. They could go even further, with further changing your skills.
People also seem to downplay the importance of visual change. Augmenting several abilities will make your class theme look completely different, which is a huge, huge plus.
iccer
1
Re: Mega Dungeons
This is the only mega dungeon ever created and you could enter as level 1
Re: Fixing the Class system
I am really sick of this white knighting, "Let them make the game" nonsense.
First off we are posting in a forum Intrepid created FOR FEEDBACK on both their design AND execution. No one invade the studio and started slapping people hands off of keyboards. The communications departments monitor the chatter on this and many other channels to see where their is discontent and they can then act to clarify misunderstanding, reveal changes, or put their foot down that a design feature is set in stone as they see fit.
We have a large body of Augment design statements that everyone on both sides is able to site, the idea that their is nothing to discuss because we have not seen any implementation is nothing but gaslighting.
Are their limits to what conclusions we can reach, obviously the design so far leaves huge ambiguity, and optimists can imagine their wildest hearts content within the design primarily because the game engine looks like it will support almost anything you can imagine. Conversely the pessimist can imagine the worst outcomes. Based on example given in the design I side with the pessimists, that the level of design freedom that Intrepid is committed to in augments will result in only flavor changes which will not alter gameplay/tactics and thus be underwhelming to players.
Lastly the element of TIME is critical, we are FAR FAR closer to the end of development then the beginning, we have seen appropriate levels of progress on many OTHER systems of the game. Augments stand out as a CLEAR DEFFICINCY IN PROGRESS and all evidence is that they have not even been started yet. If Node progression or Dungeons were in the same state people would be rightly concerned and would draw the logical conclusion that said feature would end up truncated or broken upon release due to lack of testing. This should give even the optimists pause because good intent gets sawed-off by time constraints.
You can completely disagree with WHAT people think should be the feedback and recommendation to Intrepid. I for one completely reject the OP's idea to add new base archetypes or to introduce weapon/armor limitations. I feel those would be both outside the range of reasonable changes this late, counterproductive to gameplay and do very little to actually solve the perceived augment problem. But I agree with raising the issue broadly and his critique of the current design.
People are posting feedback either without understanding the design ideas of the following system, and its possibilities and implications, or because they want something completely different.
Yes, anyone can interpret things however they want to, because we may lack more information. Which is why we need to wait, until we have more information or until they can showcase something, so we can give them feedback on that, and tell them that it's good, or that it's shit.
I'm also leaning into pessimistic territory, because I feel like they will underdeliver on the actual potential of the augment system.
However, some people are denying the potential completely, saying how it's a bad system, how they won't have unique classes, or whatever other argument, and that's the main problem - because it's just not true. The potential is there, the system can be amazing, and give you lots of customizability, it just depends on Intrepid's implementation, which we cannot give feedback on, as we simply know nothing about it.
iccer
1
Re: Fixing the Class system
You should see a doctor about thatI am really sick
That ambiguity is exactly why some of us keep saying "let them show what they can do, before saying that they're doing it wrong".Are their limits to what conclusions we can reach, obviously the design so far leaves huge ambiguity, and optimists can imagine their wildest hearts content within the design primarily because the game engine looks like it will support almost anything you can imagine. Conversly the pessemist can imagine the worst outcomes. Based on example given in the design I side with the pessimists, that the level of design freedom that Intrepid is committed to in augments will result in only flavor changes which will not alter gameplay/tactis and thus be underwhelming to players.
It's fine to say "I dislike freedom of gear choice" or "I dislike the direction the archetypes are taking", because those are at least things that we know so far (except for the remaining 2 archetypes). But saying "your system is broken, here's how to fix it", while we haven't even HEARD fully how that system will work - that's just useless.